Hahahahaha! I remember that! :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by feline
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Hahahahaha! I remember that! :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by feline
I'm always looking for innovation and I'm wondering if anybody has tested the following cards so that i won't have to do it :
1. Manabond would probably need a new shell built around it with more lands and Life from the Loam.
2. Hedron Crab is an outlet and dredger in one card, but it is slow, needs fetchlands and is probably not needed in game 1.
3. [cards]Standstill[cards], but Breakthrough is probably just better :P
I hope the new edition will give us some goodies with the Scavenge mechanic, which doesn't play the spell and is uncounterable.
My hope,too. A black creature with life cost as scavenge that gives a creature -2/-2 instant speed would be too good to hope for I guess,isn't it?^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Smea.gol.lum
But I think it is not unlikely that there will be something we can use.
1. Surgicals generally target Ichorid yes, but after board there are some lists that side in Ashen Ghoul to mitigate the loss of the Ichorids... In some cases it might also be interesting to Surgical the Bridge from Below, especially if they get a bridge in the yard early with still little pressure on the board. I believe that against dredge decks that feature Dread Return/ reanimation target to combo out, it is especially effective to target a bridge early when you have the opportunity.Quote:
Originally Posted by namrufmot
2. You have to understand that a dredge player generally has two options in his sb. The first is enchantment / artifact removal to fight cages, crypts and most importantly Leyline of the Void. The second is several copies of Ashen Ghoul (with extra lands) / Memory Lapse to mitigate the effect of Surgical Extraction / Extirpate / Faerie Macabres
Occasionally if they play Dread Return, they have some additional DR targets, or some meta-game dependent choices like Firestorm
A good reason to split between Grafdigger's Cage / Surgical Extraction in your anti-dredge choice of SB cards is because it requires the dredge player to dilute his deck a lot more then if you only play hate that he can answer with the same sb slots. So a split between Surgical and Faerie Macabres is probably less effective then a split between Cage and Extirpate for example.
Macabres in general are more effective against reanimator, so if you want to sb those, add some artifact / enchantment answer to complement the macabres in your dredge match-up.
If anyone disagrees with this feel free to add.
SO took Dredge to a local tourney and went 2-2
Match 1 Vs Maverick
Lose game 1 to turn 2 thalia followed by Garruk to hit my Bridges
Game 2 mull to 5 and just get stomped
Match 2 Vs U/W Meddling Mage/Stoneblade/Exalted Angel Thing
Lose game 1 to a questionable keep and him beating face hard
Game 2 I get a ton of zombies turn 3 and win
Game 3 I go off, but he Mages Therapy which slows me down enough for him to win
Match 3 Vs Dredge
G1 + G2 I go off and win turn 2
Match 4 Vs Bant
Game 1 go off turn 2
Game 2 he surgicals Therapy and Troll, I go off shortly after and beat with my Undead Horde!
Overall not bad still need to find ways to beat Maverick though
I was not trying to attack anyone either just to be clear. And I do not share the same thoughts as JBulko. I have to decide if I'm going with tribes or leds for the side events at the GP. I may just play multiple 8 mans and test both, if I run LED I plan on trying Que's latest list with 14 land main and firestorms in the sb, I know a lot of people don't like firestorm but it is quite good against merfolk and elves which have both been popular in my area. Having an "uncounterable" discard outlet is always nice too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zodiark
Got 2nd place in a 46 players tournament, going 5-1 (no top8 playout).
Had really retarded draws almost every game and I'm really starting to love this deck :D
Firestorms were MVP in every game I boarded them in, imho, it's by far the best sideboard card.
Maybe I'll write a short report, it was really hot in there yesterday, so I'm not remembering that much :D
Firestorm getting some love back. I assume people just didn't run it since March, because it's the slots you often have to give up for the extra Lands in LED Dredge.
Can we see the list? I'm not sure on other people's reasons for not running firestorm but mine was definitely due to sideboard space and with the lands back in the main I'm more then happy to be running 3 again. The card is just such a sick tool.Quote:
Originally Posted by mort-
Were you using it to address Scavenging Ooze or just using it as a Wrath of God? I usually found the card to be a combination of win more and overly committal vs. hate myself, altho' it is super cool to WoG bitches in an aggro-combo deck out of no where.Quote:
Originally Posted by mort-
Sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by chags
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
→ 12
4 Bridge from Below
→ 4
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
→ 4
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
1 Griselbrand
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
→ 22
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
→ 17
1 Darkblast
→ 1
→ → 60
Sideboard:
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Nether Shadow
3 Firestorm
4 Nature's Claim
→ → 15
I know the list is kind of strange, but it somehow works very well for me. All DR targets have been a house (in this case, a little village then :p) so far.
Both. I really don't like the Maverick matchup and had a hard time against it with the quadlaser. Ooze is a card that gets me very often, so I really like Firestorm. As you said, it's not only a solution against hate (KotR, Ooze, Thalia, Fauna Shaman), but also kills their board, which, seeing that they don't have carddraw, is almost every time GG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I also like it against Tribaldecks boarding Relics / Crypts. I kind of noticed that I only board Nature's Claim against Crypts / Relics / Spellbombs against blue based decks. Sounds weird, yes, but I love Firestorm much more in Tribalmatchups. It buys you so much time while slowdredging.
Best example is from this weekend. I played against Goblins (well, only match that I lost ;D). He went T2 War Marshal, T3 Chieftain, T4 Krenko. Taps Krenko and Firestorm gets his whole board in response.
@mort-: If I were to run something outside of Quadlaser, I would run your list -1 Ichorid & Cabal Therapy,+1 dread return & thug.
Were you still having trouble against Maverick with the Dread Return package main?
I really don't firestorm as a sideboard choice. Tribal is usually an easier matchup(barring not too much hate) and Firestorm doesn't always help against Maverick. They have MoM to save their best creature and can find graveyard hate in form of Ooze or Wheel while we are durdling around with firestorm.
Generally speaking, Nature's Claim is only for Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage, without knowing whether or not your opponent is playing Surgical Extraction, Tormod's Crypt or "other" you're usually better off SBing in Ashen Ghoul because it's good against Surgical and ok vs Tormod's Crypt.
Firestorm is obviously awesome uncontested, and I understand if you're playing in a metagame where Maverick has more than 1 Scavenging Ooze between the MD and SB, but how well does it fare when you're facing Tormod's Crypt and your opponent has a board position? I mean, you should probably destroy Goblins regardless of their board position as long as Mogg Fanatic isn't a part of it, what were your experiences with having to play into hate with it and what were you SBing out for it?
Don't do that :D The few games I tested with two Ichorids were just horrible, I think three is the minimum requirement here. Also, Cabal Therapy is by far the strongest card in the deck. Winning and losing are often divided by naming the correct card with Therapy or having a second one, so this would be the last card I'd cut.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
As for problems against Maverick, like I said, I think the Firestorms do make the difference, not the DR package. Allthough it's quite nice to have two additional saccoutlets to overwhelm them with tokens (also, Griselbrand and Flayer have been plain awesome). Even if some people might call it win-more, I do think that winning on the spot is certainly better then having to wait a turn at the meager cost of four MD slots. Reanimating Elesh is obv really strong G2 / 3, as it will kill everything except KotR and buys you time / kills very fast.
Playing against Crypt / Board position is actually quite ok. Seing as they will most likely will begin the game and have Crypt on the field T1, you'll have at best 8 cards in your hand. So there's 6 after Land + Looting or still 7 if you want to DDD. And that's it. You are the deck that can bring terror and destruction, so they have to depend on their Crypt to protect them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
You have time to wait, you don't need to play anything. So while they HAVE to break the Crypt (the luckier you are, the earlier they have to), you wait with your instant WoG + 6 cards in your hand. Maybe 1 less, if you did play Cabal Therapy.
If they are to fast for you.. well, then you both start at 0 again.
As for the boarding plan, against creaturebased decks, I'll usually cut the Breakthrough, Flayer, sometimes Griselbrand (if Iona and Elesh are both better). Next slot I cut is Thug, sometimes Darkblast (Merfolk for example).
I don't like cutting LED (usually I'll only board it against Leylines) because it enables some sick lategamer power postCrypt or postWaste if you still have a Looting in hand / grave.
So I actually don't board much, the deck doesn't really need to. I'm quite positive that you can win postboard games against Crypt without boarding at all. Of course, sometimes they get the nuts, sometimes you do, sometimes you both and sometimes neither, but that happens :D
Edit: I think up until now, I've lost maybe two games were I'd played and resolved Firestorm. It's the real deal, I can't stress it enough.
You're kidding me right? http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...last=BulkowskiQuote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I thought we knew Jason has already been placing with his list before.. he likes Bloodghast and they work for him so why do you keep insisting its terrible? its obviously a different build and catered more for a combo finish.
It's one thing to be good at Magic. It's another to be overly condescending and inherently rude to people trying to facilitate a discussion with comments that serve no purpose but to flame others, especially the less experienced players trying to make honest contributions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Que
Latest list:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Ashen Ghoul
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 1 Putrid Imp
SB: 1 Tireless Tribe (or second Ancient Grudge, depends on how much I expect Stoneblade)
Seems pretty good. I don't like playing (almost) Quadlaser without 4 Ichorids main deck. I was using the 4th Thug on place of the 4th Ichorid, and the last Ichorid was really missed in every game 1 against fast decks. I needed to hit them consistently on my graveyard to grind out games (storm is pretty big here in my locals).
Postboard, the fourth Ichorid comes out in the first place, followed by Lion's Eye Diamond and Breakthrough (depending on the match). The lonesome Tireless Tribe has pulled its weight against Goblins, Merfolk and Zoo, but I might replace it for Grudge #2.
This deck feels very consistent, and I've been keeping strong hands consistently, they being turn 1 or 2 combos. This deck ins't belcher, and you don't need to combo out turn 1. I usually play some Study effect or a blind Therapy (I'm pretty good [luckysack] at this).
Leylines of the Void is mainly to deal with Reanimator, as its an stupidly hard matchup. I don't play Darkblast nor Firestorm because Peacekeeper isn't present here in my meta, and the deck that uses it (UW Miracles) is almost a bye, so no worries.
I was responding to a flame myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
idk if its just this thread exclusively, but there are regulars on here who treat others' opinion as completely wrong simply because they're differing from their own. Being constructive seems to be a challenge in this thread which is the main reason I tend to lurk rather than post.
At the end of the day we'll get nowhere if we keep bad mouthing others' decks instead of improving our own game.
@Vandalize. how do you like that list? did you not want to go completely Quad to help our your sb? The only difference I see is the addition of PIMP and Tireless tribe from Quad. Are you really missing those 2 lands in your Game 1s? Or do you believe Tireless and PIMP add significant impact Games 2 & 3?
The reason this occurs is in large part to novice Dredge (and Legacy, for that matter) players who seek to learn from the more experienced players. The challenge lies in educating each other - not ourselves. That seems to be difficult for others as the tolerance level for those individuals making questionable arguments or suboptimal choices is incredibly low for some people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Que
I agree with this sentiment. However, the issue I was referencing pertains to bad mouthing others and not necessarily their decks. That is intolerable and will not be accepted.Quote:
At the end of the day we'll get nowhere if we keep bad mouthing others' decks instead of improving our own game.
Got fifth place at a local tournament with Quadlaser -1 breakthrough -1 led +2 street wraith. I beat a mono blue control deck, a pretty scrubby dragon deck, and an esper control deck. I lost to this real jerk playing Belcher who just had the worst attitude. He probably just had a colonoscopy with a rough-handed doctor. Anyway it was fun and street wraith has been really good for me in testing and in tournament play.
I understand that my humor is dry, and that text can't accurately convey what I'm attempting to express. I'm fine wit that, what's annoying is that the number of posts someone has(as opposed to real world results) seems to directly correlate with perceived wisdom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
It feels wrong to me to decide to make a change to my list based on the results from smaller 4-5 round tournaments. In some cases theses smaller tournaments can have relatively slow reactions when compared to national, of even regional metagame shifts. As such I would argue that results from such events are largely unimportant. This may hurt some feelings. I won't exactly shed a tear, and I would ask that people think logically about doing the same. Realize that larger events such as SCG events do not mirror your local metagame. Since these events can be a lucrative and personally rewarding venture, it would seem to be in the best interest of the players attending to be aware of this. While the Bazaar of moxen and world champs events may be at the pinnacle of the competitive scene, SCG events are the best thing to happen to Legacy since it's inception.
If it seems like I'm attacking you, defend yourself. ARGUE with me. Change my mind.
Don't reduce my arguments to ravings of a condescending passer by, that benefits no one.
Just because you're offended, doesn't mean I'm wrong...
Because he is an asshole and his deck is bad, one person placing with Bloodghast and Dread Return packages does not make it viable compared to multiple people placing with Quad Lazer or variants there of. Anyone can win with Dredge game 1, it's who can win with Dredge games 2 and 3 vs hate that distinguishes the bad Dredge players from the good Dredge players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Que
I'm all for constructive dialogue regarding innovation and optimization in Dredge, but the problem is Dredge is subject to a lot of "what about this or that" suggestions that are strategically and theoretically baseless because there's this ~6 card difference in lists that allow for flashy kills at the cost of consistently winning that people like to play around with. It permits some flexibility game 1 but has serious issues post-board. Bloodghast just gets destroyed by Tormod's Crypt, because it's inherently unable to apply incremental pressure in the same way Ichorid and Ashen Ghoul can. Furthermore, having to play Dakmore salvage at all is unbearably horrible, and having to have a second land in your hand in a land light deck in order to activate your Bloodghast with Landfall is asking for unnecessary inconsistency and heavily penalized by your mulligans. There's a lot wrong with that list that'll show itself if you play it enough, one guy placing well in an American tournament or even two doesn't really justify it compared to Quad Lazer and its variants consistently placing all over Europe in the hands of multiple people.
@Mort
I think you'll find Breakthrough does a better job at what you're describing than Lion's Eye Diamond specifically because it doesn't require you to have Faithless Looting in your hand or in your graveyard, and it's capable of digging 4 cards deep by itself. I believe cutting Lion's Eye Diamond over Breakthrough for game 2 is always the correct decision because of Lion's Eye Diamond's unreliability vs Tormod's Crypt and the nature of DDD as a whole, unless you're certain you'll only be facing Surgical Extraction post-board i.e. you see a Snapcaster Mage game 1.
I'll definitely try Firestorm again, I just play Leyline of the Void because I hate the Dredge mirror and the Reanimator match up, but if you're routinely casting Firestorm thru' Tormod's Crypt vs Goblins and winning your games that's pretty much living the dream as far as I'm concerned and I'm willing to test it over Breakthrough game 2 post-board (especially against Maverick)
I'm thinking about taking something similar to this list to the shop this weekend,
MD
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
3 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB
1 Ichorid
3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Tarnished Citadels
1 Cabal Therapy
4 Nature's Claim
4 Firestorm
Default SB plan game 2 is -4 Lion's Eye Diamond, -1 Dread Return, -1 Griselbrand, -1 Shield of Emeria for +1 Ichorid, +3 Ashen Ghouls, +2 Tarnished Citadels and +1 Cabal Therapy.
It's obviously a combo oriented version of Dredge, but I've been wanting to experiment with transitioning between the combo and aggro variants pre and post-board vs diversified hate in SBs to see if I could leave the MD intact vs Snapcaster/Surgical Extraction decks and use all of the packages to minimize the impact of Surgical Extraction altogether because there are too many targets that he'd be better off always taking the first Dredger or the Bridges.
I'm not certain what the best 2nd Dread Return target should be, I went with Iona, Shield of Emeria because I think she just absolutely destroys more archetypes than any other Dread Return target I can think of and being able to Dread Return her as disruption hopefully offsets cutting the 4th Cabal Therapy. I don't really like Flame Kin Zealot because it requires you to have a graveyard position and your opponent not to have a board position to end the game, and if all Flame Kin Zealot really does is prevent your opponent from top decking out of a lost position then Iona, Shield of Emeria does more or less the same thing and actually flies in for 7 to the face by herself.
It's probably no where as consistent as just Quad Lazer -1 Ichorid, - 1 Putrid Imp, -1 Golgari Thug for +3 Tarnished Citadels in the MD, which has the smoothest mulligans of any Dredge I've played so far, but it's not as much fun as resolving OP bullshit IRL and I'm kind of tired of taking the deck too seriously and just want to chill.
Also does anybody know any credible artists doing card mods that have done decent Starcraft art and could mod 75 cards for around 1k euro or less with Zerg art?
I just want to defend ideas that makes us think in another angle. I could test his deck in local tourneys to see its performance. The deck doesn't look bad (although JBulko still looks like an asshole)...Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
What about the forgotten Sadistic Hypnotist? He still shut the opponents hand, isn't color dependant, offsets cutting the 4th Cabal Therapy by having a nice discard effect and contributes to the goal of the deck making zombies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
And I liked very much this sideboard. If Maverick is one of the toughest machups for dredge, why don't run Firestorms? We know how bad is being hated.
Btw, darkblast isn't only for peacekeeper, it's better than Thug against Maverick because it can kill their starters (arbor, hierarch and mother) still allowing us to dredge.
From my point of view, we have good DR targets atm, but no best. I think it's personal preference. I currently like Griselbrand and FotH because it lets you race fast combo decks or break stalemates (like in the mirror). FotH also ignores a variety of cards, the really dangerous ones being Karakas, Maze of Ith (if Bridges got removed), Elephant Grass and Engineered Explosives. So I think it's a viable G1 target and very good if you have to expect some sort of can't-attack-hate. Iona is actually the least chosen target to be boarded in, most of the time Elesh is just better (as I board to only 1 target G2 / G3 most of the time).Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Will look into boarding LEDs instead of Breakthroughs, still have to learn much before Ovinogeddon :D
Just tossing it out there without reading a bunch of the back pages but...
In order to fight against some of the hate, which typically is Surgical Extraction/Extirpate or Faerie Macabre type sort, ever think about putting in Ground Seal? It's cheap, and a cantrip, and you guys don't target cards in your own graveyard. I've done well with it in Modern with a gy theme. It still has short comings against relic and crypt though.
:1::g: Is highly prohibitive in a deck with 8-11 rainbow lands, and we already have cards like Ashen Ghoul to combat extraction effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by ahg113
Not to mention Seal has negative effects with Dread Return, now if there were a card likeQuote:
Originally Posted by iPhael:1::g: Is highly prohibitive in a deck with 8-11 rainbow lands, and we already have cards like Ashen Ghoul to combat extraction effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by ahg113
Sacred Ground :w:
Enchantment
Cards in your graveyard have Hexproof
then I foresee it being applied to dredge to some extent, although the cantripping from seal is pretty good and does shut off Snapcaster it is to costly at :1::g:
The extra lands in the main deck are actually useful. After extensive test with Quadlaser, that 12 lands configuration didn't give me a lot of Land hands, so I add those 2 (and it made more space for my SB, which is a bonus).Quote:
Originally Posted by Que
The main reason for Tireless Tribe in the sideboard is because I own a foil Japanese one, and I love it. The second reason is that Goblins and Merfolk are real again, and this guy blocks good, and plays arround Crypt.
PImp and Tribe just come in against archtypes that are known to use Relic or Crypt, otherwise is the main +3 Ashen Ghoul +1 Tarnished -4 LED boarding, or I don't even bother boarding.
Leyline and Nature's Claim have limited use, and they come in very specific cases.
The problem with Sadistic Hypnotist is that either A) you've already discared your opponent's hand by the time you've resolved Dread Return for Griselbrand or B) he's only a bear by himself and requires Bridge from Below to create a better board position where A) Iona, Shield of Emeria names White and prevents the opponent from using the Swords to Plowshares or Terminus he Brainstormed on top of his deck or has floated on top of his deck with Sensei's Divining Top and "locking down" your board position from his top deck and B) Iona, Shield of Emeria is a 7/7 evasive threat by herself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calado
A Griselbrand and an Iona, Shield of Emeria naming White on the board is a better position than a Griselbrand and Sadistic Hypnotist on the board vs. U/w Counter Top.
One of the things I've realized with Dredge is that it's more important to prepare for Surgical Extraction than it is for Tormod's Crypt, because decks without Force of Will will lose the match if they play Tormod's Crypt regardless. While Tormod's Crypt is an effective counter game 2, game 3 we have the initiative with Cabal Therapy and Lion's Eye Diamond, and there's nothing Goblins, Elves or Maverick can do vs. us either resolving Cabal Therapy for Tormod's Crypt and going off with Lion's Eye Diamond and dredging into Narcomoeba and Tormod's Crypt. Unless they are playing Surgical Extraction, or Leyline of the Void, they risk automatically losing the match in game 3.
This realization has prompted me to cut Ashen Ghoul from my SB and take Dread Returns more seriously post-board, because Ashen Ghoul is an inherently weak card that's vulnerable to Wasteland and Dread Returns is an inherently broken card between the token generation and Troll. And altho' Ashen Ghoul is easier to recur thru' Tormod's Crypt than Dread Return is, Dread Return and targets are a significantly more powerful package for Surgical Extraction to have to consider dealing with. My observation was no one bothered to Surgical Extraction Ashen Ghoul, but when I tried to Dread Return Iona, Shield of Emeria it forced the Surgical Extraction every time they could cast it.
As far as MD and SB Dread Return targets are concerned, Iona, Shield of Emeria is the best MD target after Griselbrand, because after you draw and dredge into your second Dread Return and Iona, Shield of Emeria you can name White and "lock down" your board position from your opponent's top decks. Furthermore, Iona, Shield of Emeria disrupts every archetype, from Control to Storm, to Reanimator to Tribal to Aggro-Control and it's only worse vs Tribal and Dredge compared to Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. As such, I've decided to replace the Ashen Ghouls in my SB with 1 Putrid Imp and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite in order to improve my consitency and resiliency and to hedge against the Dredge mirror.
Post-board, I'm SBing out 4 Lion's Eye Diamond and 1 Dread Return target for 2 Tarnished Citadel, 1 Putrid Imp, 1 Cabal Therapy and 1 Ichorid and between 3 Ichorid and 2 Dread Return I feel diversified vs. Surgical Extraction.
I really feel as tho' the deck is clicking for me from a design standpoint, my SB is -3 Ashen Ghoul for +1 Putrid Imp, +1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and +1 Angel of Destruction and I think I can rest my laurals on this build for awhile.
Final Fortune- With 2 dread returns main why did you choose iona and griselbrand over say, flayer of the hatebound? I posted a list on page 87 for some help before I give it to a friend which is why I ask. Im not sure what is best and now you have me reconsidering my DR targets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstalker
He explains it quite good. Allthough, I think the only real set DR target is the big bargain :)Quote:
As far as MD and SB Dread Return targets are concerned, Iona, Shield of Emeria is the best MD target after Griselbrand, because after you draw and dredge into your second Dread Return and Iona, Shield of Emeria you can name White and "lock down" your board position from your opponent's top decks. Furthermore, Iona, Shield of Emeria disrupts every archetype, from Control to Storm, to Reanimator to Tribal to Aggro-Control and it's only worse vs Tribal and Dredge compared to Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. As such, I've decided to replace the Ashen Ghouls in my SB with 1 Putrid Imp and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite in order to improve my consitency and resiliency and to hedge against the Dredge mirror.
Don't get too hung up on Iona. Karakas is still a card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Vs. Maverick perhaps, if opponents want to SB in Karakas vs Dredge I'll just draw a new hand with Griselbrand regardless or name White with Iona, Shield of Emeria and force them to top deck it without Knight of the Reliquary. In fact if they SB in Karakas vs Dredge, I'll probably just SB out Iona, Shield of Emeria, Dread Return Golgari Grave Troll and laugh at them for wasting 3 slots on a land vs me or exchange Iona, Shield of Emeria for Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and still Wrath of God them regardless. I don't care if you can return both Griselbrand and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite to my hand with 1 Karakas, I've still dredged and drawn 7 times, cleared your board and have managed to Mind Twist you and spawn an army of zombie tokens.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
I chose Iona, Shield of Emeria over Flayer of the Hateband for 5 reasons, 1) Flayer of the Hateband requires 3 Dread Returns, which means I'd have to play with a 5 card instead of a 4 card Dread Return package. 2) Flayer of the Hateband is ineffective compared to Iona, Shield of Emeria when you Dread Return him by himself 3) 3 Dread Returns means you're more vulnerable to Surgical Extraction because it has more value when he removes 3 copies rahter than 2. 4) If your opponent Surgical Extractions and removes Golgari Grave Troll then he neuters Flayer of the Hatebound accidentally, and the idea behind keeping a Dread Return target in your deck post-board is to give you an alternative target to Dread Return if Golgari Grave Troll is removed in the first place 5) There are no common MD cards that you need to use Flayer of the Hate Bounds ability against as far as I'm aware of, and I have Angel of Destruction or Terrastadon in the SB regardless.
I may play Terrastadon instead of Angel of Destruction because it'd be cooler for Brutalisk art :)
I'm pretty confident in my choices, just wait until you see the expression on U/w Counter Tops face when he Brainstorms in response to your Cabal Therapy and then you Dread Return into Griselbrand, draw/dredge 7 cards and the Dread Return Iona, Shield of Emeria and name White and pass the turn with 2 7/7 Flyers, a board full of Zombie tokens and a graveyard with Ichorids, top deck Terminus, scoop is the most demoralizing feeling ever ... MOAR ISLAND TEARS ...
If you guys need SBing help regarding the 1 Dread Return target, I find I use Iona, Shield of Emeria vs U/w Counter Top, Storm and Reanimator, Griselbrand vs RUG Tempo and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite against Maverick, Tribal and Dredge.
Typically vs Storm and Reanimator, I just SB out 1 Putrid Imp for 1 Cabal Therapy and pray Lion's Eye Diamond likes me more than than it likes them or I get to Griselbrand and/or Iona, Shield of Emeria naming Black before they get to Grislebrand and/or Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite.
Firestorm has been hilarious vs Goblins and Elves, clearing the opponent's board, watching them drop their next creature and then dredging into Dread Return and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is rage inducing. If aggro players aren't playing Leyline of the Void, then the match up is ours IMO, the only reason Merfolk and RUG can get away without it is because they have 12 relevant counters.
@final_fortune: I was trying to say Iona isn't as good as you make her out to be, and Saddistic Hippie isn't as bad as you make him out to be.
Also, miracles decks run one or two Karakas maindeck and have plenty of library manipulation to fine it. It isn't gg when you land Iona against miracles deck because they have Jace if you name white.
As for a permanent destroyer I prefer Angel of Despair because of the random tricks that can happen against Show and Tell & Exhume.
Hmm, I wasn't aware U/w Miracle was playing 2xKarakas MD, I haven't seen it personally but if it's becoming a standard then I'd have to reconsider my strategy of keeping Iona, Shield of Emeria in post-board instead of Griselbrand. I'm still confident Iona, Shield of Emeria is a stronger card than Sadistic Hypnotist vs the field, unfortunately a bear that triggers additional Zombie tokens just isn't as good as a 7/7 Flyer in a lot of situations and you still let your opponent top deck his outs against your board position.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
That's a good point about Angel of Despair, but I don't think I'd ever SB in Angel of Despair vs Reanimator or Show&Tell because the legend rule with Griselbrand is more or less equivalent since I can't resolve Dread Return thru' Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite regardless and I can't target Emakrul, the Aeons Torn at all. I think it's a question of whether or not you value a 4/4 Flyer or a 9/9 on the board more than anything, and I'd give the edge to Terrastadon because he can Armageddon the opponent's board immediately instead of waiting for him to cast a Moat etc.
Two Karakas isn't common in Miracles, but one is. But I have seen two Karakas in that deck.
Angel of Despair absolutely can target Emrakul, the Aeons Torn--protection from colored spells does not save the spaghetti monster from a triggered ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Having been on the wrong side of it at an SCG open (winning my opponent the match--a play he made twice that day), I can say with absolute certainty that sandbagging an Angel of Despair vs. Show and Tell is unbelievably good. And vs. a Show and Tell'd ("Shown and Told?") Omniscience, Angel's triggered ability means they don't get to cast anything sorcery speed for free before their ten-mana enchantment is destroyed.
Angel of Despair is a 5/5Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
...can't hit a creature, making Angel strictly better off of Show and Tell or Exhume.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Hmm, in other words RTFC, I haven't used Angel of Despair for so long it seems I've underestimated it. Regardless, I don't think Angel of Despair is a card I'd SB in vs Show&Tell or Reanimator, and the only creature you have to remove is Peacekeeper, which is covered by Darkblast. Nevertheless, if you find yourself SBing in Angel of Despair vs Show&Tell or Reanimator let me know if it makes any difference, because I usually just SB out Iona, Shield of Emeria for a Cabal Therapy anyway vs Sneak&Show and I just accept the fact that I'm fucked vs Reanimator if they MD or SB Elesh, Norn and any amount of Surgical Extraction - we can't beat this match up :(Quote:
Originally Posted by lochlan
Oh, and in before "it feeds Ichorid."
I'm still flailing around on the Dread Return target conversation. Let me back up a bit. I play modified Quadlazer; -1 Ichorid (4th in board), Putrid Imp, -1 Careful Study, +1 Tarnished Citadel, +1 Dread Return, +1 Flame-Kin Zealot. I board some other DR targets for other matchups, like Iona, Shield of Emeria or Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, yadda yadda yadda.
Ok, so here's my thing. I find the Zealot to be pretty darn good. More often than not we're talking about a turn 2 zombie horde with haste for lethal. Way more than you'd think we're talking turn 3. I've also tried Griselbrand and really can't figure out why you guys are running him. I get the whole "I can dredge for weeks off his draw ability" bit. But by the time I can get him into play via a Dread Return, there aren't enough cards left in my deck to bother with his draw ability AND I'd rather just swing with a huge pile of hasted 3/3s! What am I missing here?
And why did you guys stop playing Flame-Kin Zealot? I find him to be the nuts every time. That dude just wins games out of no where.
The thing is: When you have a Zombie Horde on Turn 2, you usually had hit the opponent with 1-2 Ichorid beats, and you Mind Twisted their hand with Cabal Therapy.
Now imagine your opponent. He has zero relevant handcards, ~10-15 life, and is facing 6+ Zombie Tokens. What should he do? Topdeck gravehate? Fine, your Zombies will kill him. Topdeck something like Engineered Explosives? Also fine, Your Ichorids will come back, attack him, and you will also end the turn with x Tokens. Normally when you can cast Dread Return [at least in game 1] it's overkill, and you don't need a) the fatty, or b) the instant haste to win now. It is very rarely and unlikely, that the win NOW or die next turn situation will occur in game 1.
Also, I think that other DR targets do at least something relevant, if the mainplan [attacking with x Zombies] fails. Iona kills their removal, or their wincondition, Elesh Norn Mini-Wrathes and autowins against certain MUs, Angel of Despair kills at least one problematic permanent. FKZ does nothing, he just strengthens plan A, which is already strong enough.