Went 4-0 again tonight at weekly legacy.
R1: 2-1 Death and Taxes
R2: 2-1 Counter-top
R3: 2-1 ANT
R4: 2-0 Esper Stoneblade
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Went 4-0 again tonight at weekly legacy.
R1: 2-1 Death and Taxes
R2: 2-1 Counter-top
R3: 2-1 ANT
R4: 2-0 Esper Stoneblade
If you want a counter versus SnT I'd say use swan songQuote:
Originally Posted by Benjammn
Quote:
Originally Posted by trevaftw
I know you proposed the use of Swan Song specifically against SnT, and not in any other MU, but nevertheless, I thought it would be interesting to offer this thread a quick Copy+Paste from blind's report (and his subsequent reply) at the french forum, to add to our considerations about this card:
"(...) J'affronte Elves round 4, je perd la g1 et mull à 5 à la g2 dans 3 lands double Envelopp et je gagne cette game. (...)"
(TRANSLATING: "I played against Elves on Round 4, losing G1 and mulling to 5 on G2, where I kept a hand with 3 lands and 2x Envelop, which ended up winning me this game.")and:
"(...) Ouais clairement j'aurais perdu si avait été swan. Le plan Aggro est loin d'être négligeable et malheureusement on joue des 1/1. Je garderais Envelopp."
(TRANSLATING:"(...) Yeah, of course I would have lost if I had Swan Song [in place of the Envelops]. The aggro plan is far from negligible and unfortunately we play 1/1's. I'll keep the Envelops")
Despite the difference in context, my purpose with this Copy+Paste was to call atention to the mentioned potential of the aggro plan on these sort of "Racing MUs" (I mean, after we have first delayed them, of course), a circunstance in which a free 2/2 blocker could buy our opponents just as much time as we take from them through disrupting their previous spell, since it blocks pretty much all of our non-Hoof/Ruric creatures, hence preventing us from making our clock press them.
Thoughts?
(P.S.: And by the way, blind, congrats for your 15th place at the BoM! :smile: )
Thx andrebonotto :)
I stoped mtg for 2 years and I didn't test for this Event. I like U splash because Combo-Deck are bad Match-Ups.
Envelopp > Swang because you can win with 1/1 and your hate VS Combo Deck.
I am not convinced that a Counter is any better for us than discard is and discard has far more reaching targets.
Combo play Brainstorm. ;) Discard + Counter > Discard + Discard
I have 7 discard spells I bring in, Brainstorm is always my first named target unless I have to hit something else right then and there. Also if I slow them down a turn than that is a turn that I gain to combo off myself.
while it may be true that discard+counter is better i dont believe it to more effective than discard+discard in this case . if you happen to combo off and not have gone for the trop or blue source than its a dead draw. unless your playing something with lots of land destruction, your going to go for your bayou so you will have the black source. not that blue is bad and if you like it play what you like (i run a 2 mindbreak trap and 2 thorn in my sideboard just because i like it) but that flavor is not for everyone. most players like the GB splashing W or R. personally id never run U.
What's your 60th card?Quote:
Originally Posted by blind
1 Scavenging Ooze sorry. ;)
Alright. 3 days until I depart for DC.
Im reviewing tons of gameplay and vids.
Expect me to call an audible 3 hours before round 2 ;)
I agree that there are many situations in which 'Discard + Counterspell' = 'Discard + Discard' (I mean, they have the same effect and effectiveness) .Quote:
Originally Posted by Havoc
But there are also those (marginal?) situations in which they don't equal.
In my case , for example, I'm interested on the first option for I'm a little worried about the Show and Tell MU. It sees a lot of play around here, and the players have adopted Leyline of Sanctity as a standard SB protection, bringing it in against Elves too.
Because of this, for many times my discards sat useless on my hands. The split with the counterspell seems superior in this case.
Hence, if I get the chance, I think I'll try the split between Discard + Counterspell, in order to try to gain an edge on this specific MU.
Now, I wonder about which counterspell to try. Would Spell Pierce be better than Envelop?
In theory, the first can disrupt more targets than the latter (e.g.: Spell Pierce also hits artifact mana sources from Storm Combo) ...
If I was to run a counter, Spell Pierce would get the nod. It's the second most effective One drop counter behind Flusterstorm and when you need to hit a wide range of targets, it can be better.
I say this while also saying, this is not a play I would make.
Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.
I get the sentiment that Envelop is trying to convey, but are there other cards that hurt Sneak n' Show better? Preferably something that doesn't involve a different splash? I'm inclined to think Thorn/Thalia might do well, but they don't gel well with discard.
While I haven't played against Sneak and Show in a while, it seems like a perennial favorite for those wanting to play in the GP without much experience. I fully expect to see it at the GP and I don't like the matchup currently...
i completely agree with you. ive only recently started playing elves (before i was an avid player of turbo eldrazi) and i see what your saying. i was only commenting on the fact that elves as a whole has really pinpointed itself into GB and a splash of other colors and and simply U is the weakest of splashes in my opinion. i dont have many people in my area that play decks that warrant the need to run a U splash. of course this is all subject to change. with toxic deluge and true-name nemesis showing up elves may have to evolve into a stronger blue splash to cover their presence. as for leyline i said before i run thorn and trap and a maindeck ruric to stop the other combo matchups. the games that discard comes in against for me are sneak and show, turbo eldrazi, etc. if i was going to run a counter spell, spell pierce or swan song both had homes in turbo eldrazi so id go with what i know has come thru for me in the past. i see that swan killing me but id hope that if i use it im going to win next turn and only need to surviveQuote:
Originally Posted by andrebonotto
Alright.
Deck is all double sleeved and partially foiled (you know how hard is it to find effin' foil Glimpses?)
Im pretty sure I can fight thru anything but still have reservations against UWR.
I don't face that match up too often around here, so anybody got ideas for SB options?
Chrandersen, and one other prominent Elves pilot (I forget who), mentioned in the comments of Ari Lax's Legacy Champs article that the UWR matchup wasn't something to be concerned about. I respectfully disagree and, as of right now, I have no idea how to beat that stupid deck. Maybe I'm just running cold against them but I think I'm something like 2-4 against that deck in sanctioned matches. When they tapout to play a Stoneforge on Turn 2, then we should be fine. But when they just slam a Delver and then sit on their mana, shooting all our dudes, it can quickly become a very sad day. Spencer suggested going for the Progenitus plan and, assuming we can make it to 4 mana, that seems reasonable. I will say that I think Scavenging Ooze is a pretty good card against them. I'm not yet sure if boarding in Discard or Abrupt Decay would be better. I should try to find a UWR pilot and jam some games against them. Definitely bring in a Scavenging Ooze and try to bait the STP so it can stick around a bit longer. I have been told by a couple UWR pilots that they take Stifle out against me, so you probably shouldn't fear them Stifling a Craterhoof in postboard games. But I don't know if that's common practice or anything.
I agree with you 100%Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
Maybe they have some special technique against Elves that I don't know about. But facing a tempo deck with 7 md spot removal has been really rough for me. 3 of these list popped up at my local, and I've switched to another deck until I can figure a way to beat them or until their presence has diminished. Maybe Thorn of Amethyst is something to be looked at again? *shrug*
Against UWR/RUG delver I bring in 3 abrupt decay, 2 scanvenging ooze, 1 progenitus (I run 4 NO main. keep all in). I side out 2 heritage druid, 1 craterhoof behemoth (leaving 1 ruric thar plus the sided in progenitus), 2 nettle sentinel, 1 quirion ranger
At least from my experience UWR has the same weaknesses as RUG, which is their reliance on delver to kill you before you can overcome their removal. Stuff like stoneforge or lavamancer are annoying, sure, but those things don't kill you very quickly. It's the god damn delvers that do. So I like to bring in all my decays, shaman, ooze, and any other anti-fair cards I have in my board. My game plan is just decay their delvers (sometimes lavamancer or equipment if need be) and just generate more cards than them over a longer game until they lose. From my perspective, UWR is just another delver deck, so if you can beat RUG consistently I feel that you should be able to beat UWR as well.
Definitely board in Decay; it kills everything relevant they have (particularly Engineered Explosives, gah) and their counters do nothing against it. In my experience Scavenging Ooze is a beast because there will be many dead creatures (mostly elves, sadly). Elves has some really great activated and triggered abilities so I don't know why they would board out Stifles. Fetch lands, Wirewood Symbiote, Craterhoof Behemoth, Regal Force for those few who still run it. It's rare to come against enough counters to be relevant, enough burn to be relevant, AND enough threats to provide a fast enough clock to kill you before you do stuff. But if that does somehow happen you're dead I guess. I don't recall ever losing to that deck with Elves though.Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
A couple of things about the UWR matchup:
1. I'm convinced it is the nightmare mu. I don't know how these other pilots say they never lose to it. I think Elves fares badly against the fair decks that pack more than 4 spot removal, multiple forms of repeatable removal/wipes, and counterspells. This is why Elves in Modern never took off with Beck (because every deck overloads on creature removal since every combo is creature-based).
2. Ruric Thar isn't a good answer. His downside really comes to play here as he gets taken out by STP or Bolt and Delver. I'm not going to waste a NO for 6 damage.
I am now convinced that No-Pro is the plan you want to be on post board for the UWR match. The hand attack a close second, b/c the abrupt decay plan is to reactionary for a blue deck with too many answers and a better late game plan IMHO.
Typically ( and if you saw me on camera you will know I believe this to a fault.....) delver decks side OUT daze on the draw. it isn't good. If you think your opponent is a traditional sideboarder, you only really have to worry about FOW/Pierce/Envelop. So when you are on the play you can expect to bait out their FOW with glimpse for value, not combo glimpse. Wait for an opening and go for a NO-Pro.
My board plan for UWR now is: +1No +1Pro +3 Cabal Therapy. -1 Hoof, -3 Visionary -1 Heritage.
I like how Elves players haven't reached a consensus on how to sideboard. It makes it more difficult for the opponent to know what to expect in G2/3.
Also, I think there's a lot of merit in mixing up your sideboard plans if two diverging plans seem "too close to call" with respect to their effectiveness.
To keep you guys updated, I am currently in the process of finishing my report and I got confirmation from SCG that they will get it up before GP DC!
Right now I am looking at 20+ pages in MS Word, don't know if they are going to downsize it somewhat :cool:
Can't wait to read it!
Good thing that you were on Everyday Eternal podcast. Good laugh + Arnold impressions from the guys
Im packing my stuff for DC at the moment. Im still trying to decide if im cutting 2 birchlore for 2 more Quirion Rangers!
I also can't beat RUG consistently. Delver is my archnemesis. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by chinEsE girl
Cut a 1/1 split?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayradis
I am excited to read this!Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
I think most Delver matchups are along similiar lines; however UWR is a particularly gruesome MU. I find myself putting in 3 Decays, 2 Pithing Needles, and Prog. I have Ruric main deck now, so I usually side him out; while he looks great against tempo I just haven't succeeded in using him in the MU. If on the play I'll consider some sort of discard, but I never liked discard on the draw vs UWR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjammn
Can't wait.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
You can play Meekstone.Quote:
I also can't beat RUG consistently. Delver is my archnemesis. :(
PLAY 4 QUIRION ! :)Quote:
Im still trying to decide if im cutting 2 birchlore for 2 more Quirion Rangers!
Meekstone is the shit vs delver decks. Only geists really gets to attack more than once. Delvers, nemesis etc are reduced to one shot only critters :)Quote:
Originally Posted by blind
Looking forward to the complete report in case the downsize it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Did writing the report keep you from reading/replying to my private message Julian *fg*.
That's quite cool. I can't wait to read it. If they make you cut it, save your longer draft for later publication.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Postboard is negative against competent opponents who bring in flusterstorms, submerges and rough tumbles.Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
Preboard I had much better results with my recent list where I play 0 llanowar evles and 4 birchlore.
The best strategy RUG has is to kill every elf so their taxing counters/mana denial is live while they beat us down. Birchlore is best setup to combat this because it allows you to dumb your hand faster and turns every body into a manasource.
I have progenitus main (although that might change for Ruric thar if I figure out everyone else is right or the meta is appropriate), but I learned that Progenitus is the best weapon. Which also means that postboard we are forced to be the "aggro-deck". That means there is a chance we catch him on the "wrong foot" and win, but we are force to play into his flusterstorms/rough-tumbles more than you would like since you don't have enough control elements to stop his attackers... So if he plays perfectly and/or has all the answers you just lose post-board.
Overall I think my current take against RUG is still slightly negative but much better than my old approach.
Writing/finishing the report was actually almost all i did for the entire last week whenever I came home from work. So yeah, one might say that I was mildly disctracted.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
Basically, my last 5 days looked like this:
9:00 - 18:00 spent at work
18:00 - 20:00 chillout
20:00 - 01:00 work on the report, mainly
01:00 - 02:00 watch another episode of Game of Thrones and go to bed.
I almost feel relieved going back a more regular schedule now although I enjoyed writing a lot!
Let me say that I feel really honored by your offer but didn't really get to think about it a lot tbh ;-) If everything works out, I might be able to make it to GP Vienna, so maybe we'll run into each other there?
problem of understanding ;)
@blind: I think you completly misunderstood what he was saying. Being "the shit vs Delver" carries a very positive conotation.
Really? So I'm sorry :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
LOL. I can't read French but I love that you went off like that, with a block of text, and then immediately apologized, smiley face and all. There is no language that I enjoy hearing (or pretend-reading) in angry tones more than French. I actually can't tell if youre angry, but if you are not, please don't say. I want that block of text to stay a happy mystery.
Now I will go find some nice Meekstones. Then I will take over the world.
normally, we don't need to improve match ups which are already good. TT is complex, try to turn around tempo spells, with some decay and ooze, we are fine. And meekstone, we can probably do without. Moreover, meekstone is not enough versatile, prefer decay which is acceptable vs many match ups.
"is shit" = very bad, "is THE shit"= very good. English is ridiculous.