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It would be a new NicFit idea, or more importantly a new VeteranExplorer/Cabal Therapy Idea. Something like:Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
4 Eternal Witness
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Collective Company
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
Instant speed lets the deck recover from sweepers and also allows us to hold up for removal/play around counters.
I am just wondering why a GBx creature deck didn't even consider the card.
The Nic Fit 2.0 you're describing is Maverick, roughly.
It's Nic Fit without the strength to go over the top.
Decks don't touch it b/c it's a horrible card. It would have been borderline playable if either it looked at creatures with CMC <= 4 instead of 3 or of it let you look at the top 10 cards instead of 6. In its current state it does too little for the effort/dedication needed to pull it off.
Edit: Moving this
That being said, I played my list from last week at this weeks local and had a great time going 3-1-1. It was a big switch from all of the Lands I have been practicing with, but I have tons of experience with GBx decks in the past.
The list:
Creatures(16)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Primeval Titan
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Siege Rhino
1 Eternal Witness
Spells(22)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
Lands(22)
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 bayou
2 savannah
1 scrubland
3 forest
2 swamp
1 plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
Sideboard(15)
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Path to Exile
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 rest in peace
2 surgical extraction
3 choke
Round 1 BUG Delver W 2-0
I drew tons of basics and resolved a Veteran Explorer for profit both games. Lilliana shut the game down quickly and top kept my "hand" relevant.
Round 2 Miracles Draw 1-1-1
All 3 games went long. I would have won game 3 as I had an eternal witness/pernicious deed soft lock and would have switched to thragtusk, but I could not draw him in time to get the kill. I think I could have left 1 Veteran explorer in to power through the point in the game where I don't have much to do. Jace was also surgically extracted game 3.
Round 3 UWr Stoneforge W 2-1
Seige Rhino/Courser were MVP's of this one as swords were blown on Confidants and Explorers early and bolts could not take down the fatties. Hymn also made an early appearance game 2.
Round 4 Omnitel L 2-1
I just did not draw enough relevant cards to make anything happen game 1. An early Bob game 2 drew enough gas to hold him down with therapies and hymns but game 3 a canonist was the only thing i could find to try and slow the search, he had the combo in hand and show and told me turn 3.
Round 5 Elves W 2-0
Green Sun into Teeg early both games was enough to seal the deal. He had a value glimpse both games but could not draw enough with Teeg in play.
Super fun! I will work on the list more and I might have to slip back into the junk forum for a little bit.
So what do people think about watered down version of survival?
Made a 3-1-1 in a local last sunday with BUG Pod. Lose against UWR mentor (drawn all the lands, g2 keep swamp-sea-strix-ooze-veteran-vendilion... never found the third land), won against MentorMiracle, Miracle, Tezzeretor and 1-1 against Lands by my mistake, horribly.
Hard to say, but I'll try with a few comments. Not quite thought through yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
Could be quite good with Explorer, Witness, Finks, Huntmaster and any token producer (Souls, Mentor, Garruk, Elspeth), providing card advantage at most activations. Which seems powerful.
It's destroyed by deed similarly to Sylvan, and doesn't filter for lands or removal. So you'll still want some Tops. On the other hand once you have lands you often want to draw your creatures and it's good at that, getting value along the way. You may be able to chain through a large part of your creature base over a few turns, especially due to Explorers. But you need to build for it with a few more cheap creatures and CIP effects. And even though you can't tutor for bullets it increases chances of finding them.
It's like a Pod without CMC limitations, random selection and not putting things into play. It means you need to keep low CMC's to make it better than Pod. Or play it with GSZ's and 8 basics, setting all exporers off more often while chaining for the larger beasts.
It does offer fast graveyard filling so Recurring Nightmare could be good next to it. Or maybe next to Living Wish [edit: Living Death] with Oozes and Deathrites..
If you run that card, you probably switch from running Deeds to running Damnations or Deluges instead, and round out with possibly 2 maindeck artifact/enchantment kill guys to compensate for losing Deed.Quote:
Originally Posted by pettdan
It's doesn't net you any advantage. I don't see a reason to play it. G, sacrifice a creature: Draw the first creature card to come along. Seriously?
The problem with the card is that you have to play/resolve your creature cards before you can recycle them for a random critter. That's a rather big investment. Sure, it's cute when you use it in response to your opponents' removal, but how often will that come up?
Also, concerning token producers - why not just smash face with said tokens rather then durdle about?
I was thinking about Evolutionary Leap and Veteran Explorer synergy.
http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoi...utionary-leap/
I case when deck running only Veteran Explorers as a creature we have combo which fetch 8 basics in one turn, which can't be broken by removal (only permission or enchantment removal).
Let take some scenerio:
Turn 1 - SDT/Discard/Cantrip
Turn 2 - Evolutionary Leap
Turn 3 - Explorer/GSZ + mana for use
Turn 4 - We have about 10+ mana available and great CQ in deck after fetching so many lands.
deck restriction - no other creatures in deck so basically deck should be focused on plainswalkers as wincon which isn't bad.
Scapeshift on steroids?
This! and Walkers (and we can use the biggest with 10+ Mana ^^) and after the Explorers are gone, Deed is also ok, because Evolutionary Leap isn't needed anymore. Without Scapeshift (or without black...which means RUG :eek:) you can also go the Walker Route and build a BUG Shell with the Engine, which also enable Counter Magic and Cantrips. Sounds absurd :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Minor note, it can only fetch 8 forests in one turn, which is significantly less attractive if you start running three or even two colors. Both the activation and casting the new explorer cost G, so I wouldn't call it a one-turn "combo".
http://cdn.magicspoiler.com/wp-conte...onary-Leap.png
I am currently thinking of something more alike R/G (JUND) Beats. Flametongue Kavu, Huntmaster of the Fells. Something in lines of JUND. The nice thing about the card is that it makes your creatures dodge your opponents removal. All it needs is have some solid ETB creatures and silver bullets. Packing Sensei's Divining Top and maybe even a couple of Worldly Tutor to put those silver bullets on top. Magus of the Moon on request vs lands. Sign me up. I am going to crack this card is some awesome build. Heck maybe i'll even jam in some Tarmogoyf's. Bloodbraid Elf would work to here. Or Bloodghast to be able to keep the loop going. Just some unorganised thoughts here. But i will be on this for sure.
Edit: hmm, on the other hand going for Worldly Tutor to put creatures on top so you can draw them with E.Leap is a bit awkward. Still i would love to jam a Master of Cruelties to the table. First Strike and Deathtouch. Plus unblocked puts your oppenent at zap range for Punishing Fire or Lightning Bolt.
Also the card dodges Rest in Piece since it does not require a graveyard. Offcourse cards like Recurring Nightmare make it better.
Hence Scapeshift :wink:. That, at least, is on-colour.Quote:
Originally Posted by UseLess
@Bobmans: You have read that the card goes to your hand, right? You're describing scenario's where you'd need 5 mana+ to tutor for a Magus of the Moon and so on. That's just too slow to be viable.
Also, why Worldy Tutor + sac a creature to draw a creature when you can also run Brainstorm/Ponder..? Seriously...
Well, not running blue is where i would like to be. JUND is where i specifically want to be at. I do not care to look for the best, i want to make the best out of something i like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
It's core would still be similar as current NicFit lists, ramping is key here. Offcourse i have read the card. It puts the shit in hand. Already revised on the Tutor tech. The mana curve would be lower, but it would be a "bigger" variant then regular JUND. Kinda like RG Survival was back then. Still i am exploring posibilities, but i really want to prevent the deck from going blue cantrip circus.
Why not run GSZ (for more consistent Explorers) and a few mana-heavy GSZ bombs, probably with some quality token producers to feed the Leap? I don't think you need to chain an absurd amounts of forests to get value out of the combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
Some kind of Walker Superfriends deck might be workable, too, especially the token-producing ones.
First list Scapeshift on Steroids:
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Evolutionary Leap - New Survival
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Scapeshift
4 Burning Wish
4 Force of Will
4 Dig Through Time
4 Lightning Bolt
7 Forest
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Taiga
3 Volcanic Island
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Overmaster
SB: 1 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Firespout
SB: 2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
SB: 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Gaze of Granite
First 20 hands played - GSZ MD would be good - but there is a problem with blue cards count.
DTT works great here since combing out feed your greaveyard with extra 4 cards (4 explorers)
@Fatal: too few Mountains i think
6 is way too few mountains. If you happen to draw a single one, you now can't scapeshift until you find a brainstorm to put it back. It also means you can only cast bolt or wish off of a Valakut.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
4 color Shapeshift seems greedy.
Actually you need to find 4 mountain x 2 Val -> 24 dmg (2 can be in play) . Tested land configuration and with so many cantrips I didnt had problems with card selection. Anyway to minimalize risk with wastelands/sinkholes (who play it ?!) better add 1.
Anyway I found this deck is... slow, sure it's very stable with protection and CA (DTT) which isn't normally in combo decks. It can be compared to OmniTell since you also need two cards:
Explorer and R. Leap, but... you also need more mana - 1G for Leap, then 1 for Explorer and 1 more for activation, what is much worst compared to OmniTell - you doesn't win after, you need to Dig/Burning Wish/natural draw Scapeshift and more over cast it for 2GG.
In Sum to combo out you need:
3 key cards - Explorer, R. Leap, Scapeshift
Resources - 1G, G, G, 2GG.
It's just slow you can't combo out before turn 4 which is sometimes slower then Elves, sure you have a lot of tools, additional you running removal, but I don't think it can compete with Tier 1 decks.
Mana engine also require running at least 7 basic forest with is quite huge drawback - opening game with forest only lands isn't good unless we rebuild deck for mono-green one.
Scapeshift require at least 6-7 mountains, which restrict a lot manabase.
I'm off this project It won't work.
I didn't saw the appeal of running a pure Scapeshift deck anyway.
Why not run Leap normally and just sometimes get nut draws with Explorer? Maybe even Academy Rector to fetch Leap/Recurring Nightmare to get your engines going? Trying to build around combo-hyperramp sounds like a "danger of cool things"-case, as awesome as it might be.
Probably for the same reason we don't run Birthing Pod. It's too slow, durdles too much and just doesn't propel you forward enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Read Valakut. If there aren't at least 6 mountains in play, you get zero triggers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
There are a few important differences though. Leap is cheaper to cast, activates at instant speed, and can be used multiple times per turn. The obvious downside is that you don't get to choose what you get, and it goes to your hand rather than into play. It's also pretty horrible in multiples, but not really worth running at 1-2 copies. Anyway, the only reason Pod isn't horrible in multiples is because of the tapping and timing restrictions. Leap at least seems worth testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
He's saying if you have 6 mountains total, 2 of which are in play, then you can Scape for 4 mountains and 2 Valakuts, which will deal 24 damage. When the 4 mountains come into play, each one will see 5 other mountains, so the triggers will go off.Quote:
Originally Posted by firebadmattgood
Running duals to trigger Valakut seems pretty weak to Wasteland. Valakut only deals damage if there are at least 5 other mountains in play. So all your opponent has to do is Waste the dual mountain that will be the first Valakut trigger to resolve and the rest of the triggers will fizzle. So you Scapeshift for 6 mountains and a Valakut, you Waste the first to resolve, take 3 damage, and the other five triggers fizzle because there are no longer 5 other mountains in play.
"Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle's triggered ability has an "intervening 'if' clause." That means (1) the ability won't trigger at all unless, at the time a Mountain enters the battlefield under your control, you control five or more Mountains other than that new one, and (2) the ability will do nothing if you control fewer than five Mountains other than that new one by the time it resolves."
Yes, one would be stupid to play Scapeshift right into an untapped Wasteland and not taking that into account.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
Derp, thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anarky87
Hi. Need SB advice. Long time no see any tournaments but in july I'll go to one. Here's my Pfire list:
Creatures:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Primeval Titan
1 Free slot
Planeswalkers:
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen
Spells:
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei’s Divinig Top
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Slaughter Games
Lands:
4 Grove of The Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run
Looks quite typical ;) 1 creature slot is free (don't have thrun, courser not even a thragtusk ;p) second bayou eventually will be, a overgrown tomb (or better to stay with 3 swamps)
Last time meta was:
2 reanimators
1 miracles
3 delvers (RUG BUG RUB)
1 Omnitell
1 Dark depths combo
1 Dn'T
I think about
3 carpets (still need to buy ;p)
3 Duress
2 nihil spellbomb
1 golgari charm
4 reb
that gives 2 free slot
help plx ;)
I think you're all falling for the too cute solves no problems conundrum. Evolutionary leap solves no problem the deck has and only constrains the way you build nic fit. The deck doesnt need anymore turn four help which is all it really does, so you can play a huge non creature spell ie 7-10 up to two turns earlier. Aside from scapewish no varient gains anything and scapewish gives up a lot of constancy and tutor options to cut zenith and all creatures for a two card combo that ramps, it doesn't actually win it doesn't speed up your clock and it doesnt fix combo matches. Walkerfit is the only thing I can see gaining from the card and I don't think its enough without doubling season and rector. I wish I was wrong and would love to be proved as such. If someone can show me why playing a turn two evolutionary leap is better then jamming a stoneforge or zenith> explorer > therapy is better in anygiven matchup im all ears. We're playing legacy not magicalchristmasland.tcg
Totally agree with @uncletiggy. It doesn't resolve any problems, it doesn't speed up enough so we don't see advantage to running it.
What's the status of Junk at the moment? I'm playing a legacy FNM and want to see what others have been doing. I'm wondering if Sylvan Safekeeper is worth a slot as its only real merit is being paired with Titania. I'd also like to show some planeswalker action, but is running just 1 enough? Elspeth, Garruk Relentless? Shit even Vraska could do work.
I'm considering cutting the 1 Recurring Nightmare as it rarely sees play, but it's so good with any number of my creatures.
I'm also wondering how you board against MUD? My listed SB can certainly be edited. I'm probably running too much GY hate anyway
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Seige Rhino
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Titania
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sigarda
1 Thragtusk
1 Eternal Witness
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 GSZ
3 Top
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Plains
SB
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Leyline of Sanctitiy
2 Golgari Charm
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Gaddock Teeg
Love the list,Quote:
Originally Posted by thotcrime
against MUD all you really have to do is resolve a deed before they smokestack you to death. The deck really is not fast enough to compete. If they have forge master than even better because most lists play artifact lands as well.
There's lot of gravebase decks so a Extirpate or Surgical Extraction. Maybe can be good agansit omni-tell to remove show and tell or win cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruby
Two Slaughter Games against combo. I don't think you need 4 reb, 3 is good.
Infinite Obliteration
1BB
Sorcery
Name a creature card. Search target opponent's graveyard, hand, and library for any number of cards with that name and exile them. Then that player shuffles his or her library.
Some juicy Show and Tell hate.
If I was going to explore the power of evolutionary leap I'd begin with a creature package of 1-2 dryad arbor 4 explorers and 1-2 academy rectors with leaps over zeniths. Id go doubling season and walkers only lightly splashing white for plows rector and maybe elspeth suns champion maindeck.
In light of GP Lille, pros have begun discussing (and have seemingly been in favor of) a Sensei's Top ban in legacy. I will not go into detail as to my thoughts on the matter, save to note that I do believe a ban is probably necessary and I do not believe that Top is the correct one (nor am I part of the Brainstorm hype train); I also will admit that Top is a card Wizards has expressed dislike existing in [formats] for a multitude of reasons, some of which I agree with and some of which I don't.
Considering this, it is prudent to note here that there is a decent (~40%, in my mind) chance that Top will be banned, regardless of the implications on the format.
Obviously, a potential Top ban is VERY serious for us. Even many blue versions typically run at least 1 copy (I rather like the 3-2 brainstorm-top split, personally). For the blue versions, there are many other card quality/filtering devices (or even just raw card draw) that can be used in lieu of Top. However, there is somewhere of a lack of decent replacements for Top for the white and red versions, and I would like to steer discussion away from a very silly card towards a much more serious topic.
------
Interlude: I have purposefully left out my thoughts on Evolutionary Leap up to this point, because I have nothing positive to contribute to the discussion at all. You're talking about dedicating 4 slots of your deck to something that you only ever want to draw 1 copy of, the entire game, which is then useless after 1 turn. In addition, you also cannot then run things like Cabal Therapy as backup engines because you no longer have the requisite creature density -- AND at the earliest, you can't "go off" with Leap until turn 3.
In no way, shape, or form do I feel this is a viable option in a traditional Nic Fit shell. If something like Vampiric Tutor is unbanned, for some godforsaken reason, you MIGHT be able to convince me to at least try it, because then you'd run 4 Vamp Tutors and 1 Leap, which would be okay. Enlightened Tutor is too many colors, before that is brought up.
I don't know. My bottom line is that it is possible that a Leap deck exists, and if it does, it almost assuredly revolves around Veteran Explorer (or its blue cousin, Noble Benefactor) because that interaction is actually pretty silly. However, I would suggest that this theoretical deck --
A: Does not exist at this time. Either card(s) have to be printed for it to exist, or banning/unbannings need to happen to make it viable.
B: Is out of our temporal budget. There is a limited amount of forum space/poster time to work with, with regards to making a discussion yield a deck, testing it, and tuning it. There is sufficient danger of a Top banning that I would rather see discussion turn towards what we do in event of this happening, because I do not wish to see the archetype just die.
C: Frankly, probably just isn't very good. Everyone who is like zomg turn 4 scaspeshift -- Scapewish can ALREADY do that. Admittedly infrequently, but it does happen. I've done it, as have others in this thread. Scapewish gets to run a much better backup plan and I would argue better protection, while running with a better mana base.
I am in no way trying to stifle anyone's creativity, nor stop people from working on Leap + Explorer. My humble suggestion would be to simply move your discussions elsewhere, so that both Nic Fit and Leaping Veterans (or whatever cutsie legacy deck name you want to assign it) can benefit from a purer, more focused discourse.
------
Back to Top talk.
As I see it, there are a couple of options in a world where Top is banned. Note that I am referring only to our internal consistency, not what will happen to the metagame.
A: Run more Tutors. More Diabolic Intents. Sidisi becomes a staple/core piece rather than a good bro. Grim Tutor is likely something we have to look into deeper at this point, as well as functional wishboards.
B: Run blue. It is entirely within the realm of reason that White and Red variants simply just die. Blue versions can adopt more of the cantrip shell and become part of the problem rather than the solution as we're used to being. I've not exactly kept it quiet that I've been working on Grixis Pyromancer (control variant) lately, and I can definitely say that the Therapy/Probe/Brainstorm/Ponder/Dig shell is pretty insane. What -exactly- that means blue lists end up engendering, I am not sure.
C: Run more hard card draw. I'm talking your Harmonizes here, people. Night's Whisper, perhaps, is better still.
D: Run 3+ Sylvan Libraries and move away from Deed, into Deluge/Damnation (complementing with naturalize bros and maindeck Decays across all versions).
E: Further explore some of the deviant Nic Fit ideas, like Veteran ANT or some kind of crazy beatdown shell.
F: Linear strategies encompassing tutoring/filtering inherently. I put your Birthing Pods and Collected Companies down under this category -- both are strategies that require a ton of dudes in your deck, so if instability strikes, you can frequently still cobble something together from the pile of creatures that you draw.
All of these are possible things that we should be looking into in the event that Top gets banned in a week.
Options A and D seem the most favorable for preserving the decks identity. scroll rack might be worth adding to the list of possible avenues to take. Hopefully tho wizards is smart enough to know top is not the problem terminus and dtt are. Banning top kills miracles banning those two resets the format. They can always play supreme verdict or god forbid devastation tide.
Well i can only coment on the fact that some bannings definetly would be good for the format. Some change and diversity would eb refreshing. Although i think top most likely is too good of a card, it might not be wize to ban top, since it just as arhood is saying further limits nonblue decks in a format almost exclusively dominated by blue decks.
One of the main reason the format is so dominated by blue is ofc the lack of card selection from other colors, therefore banning top would make the situation even worse. Top besides miracles is a big reason decks like 12post, painter, nicfit, jund and to some extend non blue combo decks, just in general non blue decks which diversifies the format. However some restriction or nerf to the dominating miracles deck is imo definetly needed, not only cause its been so dominating but cause CB/TOP is just so amazingly boring to play vs.
Frankly i really hope they just ban counterbalance, imo its just as sad playing (once you've established the softlock) as it is facing.
Then dig through time is clearly way to good since it nullfies all other carddraw in the format, once again shutting down innovation and diversity. Why would anyone ever play say accumulated knowledge, thirst for knowledge or even meditate anymore when clearly DTT is superior in pretty much every occasion. In similair fashion as treasure cruise.
Deck creation concerning blue cards is just to restrictive, cause there is just way to many AUTO-INCLUDES, meaning every blue deck is pretty much the same except from some few exceptions. It's just so non-creative.