[OLD] UGr Threshold

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Originally Posted by MULocke

The problem with clique is that it's too slow for this format. It's nice in standard and extended because all of the scary spells some down late, but here everything is so cheap that it's just to slow. Also, a three-power guy does nothing in the mirror where it's all about goyfs. It seems okay, but just too cute and not relevant enough, whereas fire/ice is really, really solid all the time.

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Fair enough, I just really want another creature in place of a fire ice. A dryad, or wear bear might work. I have had mixed results with clique, tipicaly he is awsome in the mirror as long as you dont LOSE the goyf /goose fight you just draw it out. He also dodges CB which has been nice on several occasions. Although I feel like your probably right a fire ice is most versatial a vendillion clique helps our bad matchups alot though.

In any case I still definately would not go without +2 price of progress it just seems so huge...

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Originally Posted by undone

Fair enough, I just really want another creature in place of a fire ice. A dryad, or wear bear might work. I have had mixed results with clique, tipicaly he is awsome in the mirror as long as you dont LOSE the goyf /goose fight you just draw it out. He also dodges CB which has been nice on several occasions. Although I feel like your probably right a fire ice is most versatial a vendillion clique helps our bad matchups alot though.

In any case I still definately would not go without +2 price of progress it just seems so huge...

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Now I wish I had the time to test that between now and Saturday morning... Clique and PoP seem good, but only testing will show. I'm gonna stick with the proven md for now, but I just might try to mise some wins out of my sb.

giving up the dredge matchup may be ok if youre not going to GP Chicago and its not played in your meta.
i dont think you can just ignore one of the most broken decks in the format and hope not to get paired against it otherwise.

i never won vs dredge when i did not have gy hate besides fluke games.

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Originally Posted by sauce

giving up the dredge matchup may be ok if youre not going to GP Chicago and its not played in your meta.
i dont think you can just ignore one of the most broken decks in the format and hope not to get paired against it otherwise.

i never won vs dredge when i did not have gy hate besides fluke games.

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The best way to win dredge is to win the roll hope they suck and try to cast spells against you and you get to counter the discard outlet.

Boarding in clasm helps but really if I were going to the GP I would dump the ichorid matchup in a heart beat. You will not see more than one if that heres why.

1) Its not popular it hasnt top 8ed all over the place and been popular for the pros who want to play force goyf top decks.

2) It will not be common due to LED being expensive legacy only card which is required in good builds.

3) It takes extream skill to not error the deck out on itself

4) The deck has a tendecy to self destruct and is only mediocer in the combo match.

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Now I wish I had the time to test that between now and Saturday morning... Clique and PoP seem good, but only testing will show. I'm gonna stick with the proven md for now, but I just might try to mise some wins out of my sb.

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Clique is good in many matchups the matchups its proven to be pretty to awsome good in are

1) The mirror
2) blue aggro control matchups NOT playing stalker
3) Combo (WAY better than fire ice, simply because it prevents double/triple chant)

It also serves a great perpose in the control matchup of preventing goose deaths (nom nom board sweeper)

I would say it shines most in the counter top MU when we both establish relativly equal creatures or you have a goyf and they dont have two. Simply because unlike many other cards in the deck they have between 4 and 8 cards that can beat it, and it splits the farming targets up, after all which one would you rather they send farming?

As a side note that I have found with PoP

PoP is infact the nuts. It is insane. However you have to play conciously around it yourself, dont crack your fetches past the 1 valc and 1 trop. If you do then its just our right nuts.

PoP gave me wins against Aggro-Loam and Landstill. Both games could have been lost without it, mostly the landstill's one. Double POP @ 10 dmg each is fucking lethal.

PM

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Originally Posted by Enigma

PoP gave me wins against Aggro-Loam and Landstill. Both games could have been lost without it, mostly the landstill's one. Double POP @ 10 dmg each is fucking lethal.

PM

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PoP just does so much your only boarding it in in matchups that have basicaly 0 clock so its more effective. I would consider a 3rd if the metagame was heavy on those but I would not recommend more than 2 in most metagames.

Price of progress wins games, landstill games litteraly finding a goyf to block man lands and falling aslee... I mean cantriping till you find a PoP.

No longer is goose the only way to beat these decks, you add cards that can solo the match alone.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but Boom/Bust would give you 3rd turn 2 mana Stone Rain provided you have a Fetch or Waste out. And Armageddon against Landstill...

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Originally Posted by freakish777

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but Boom/Bust would give you 3rd turn 2 mana Stone Rain provided you have a Fetch or Waste out. And Armageddon against Landstill...

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Carddisadvantage! And Bust is almost not supportable.
In the past we had various discussions about Epicenter, but Winter Orb was always be able to establigh itself as the control hoser. Alternatively Price of Progress or Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon in some metagames.

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Originally Posted by Adan

Carddisadvantage! And Bust is almost not supportable.
In the past we had various discussions about Epicenter, but Winter Orb was always be able to establigh itself as the control hoser. Alternatively Price of Progress or Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon in some metagames.

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You wouldnt play crack the earth. Dont play boom bust.

Price of progess is just TOO good to not play. Moon effects are greedy IMO, when they work you auto win when they dont they did nothing. PoP on the other hand is a counter or lose/screw/8 you card.

I also am partial to vendillion clique as a 1 of over a fire/ice or spell snare depending on metagame (tipicaly fire ice)

I've been wanting to test out the clique for some times right now but never had the chance. I will do so next tournament I play in.

I played the Caplan list changing the Wipe Away for the Vendilion and one wooded foothils for 1 island. Seemed good to me, liked the change

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Originally Posted by johanessen

I played the Caplan list changing the Wipe Away for the Vendilion and one wooded foothils for 1 island. Seemed good to me, liked the change

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Change rushing river first. Heck change fire ice (IMO the weakest card we already hose goblins with a 1G abyss) first. Wipe away is a bomb that is needed.

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Originally Posted by undone

You wouldnt play crack the earth. Dont play boom bust.

Price of progess is just TOO good to not play. Moon effects are greedy IMO, when they work you auto win when they dont they did nothing. PoP on the other hand is a counter or lose/screw/8 you card.

I also am partial to vendillion clique as a 1 of over a fire/ice or spell snare depending on metagame (tipicaly fire ice)

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price of progress also does like 4-6 to you...

Cast it when they're in the red zone and it doesn't matter how much it does to you, as long as you can live through it. PoP is amazing and (imo) the only reason burn is even halfway viable in this environment.

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price of progress also does like 4-6 to you...

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Landstill

43 land

Aggro loam

None have fast clocks and matchups like loam are decided before you play this card. The differance is that this card switches who is winning in the matchup with 1 card. Its like a 1 card backup plan that wins matchups otherwise thought bad.

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Originally Posted by undone

Change rushing river first. Heck change fire ice (IMO the weakest card we already hose goblins with a 1G abyss) first. Wipe away is a bomb that is needed.

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IMO rushing rivers is stronger then wipe away and I absolutely love the multi use of fire/ice. Its very usefull in alot of matchups.

current board:

3 submerge (ta/loam)
2 reb (merfolks/control)
2 pyroblast (merfolks/control)
2 hydroblast (sligh/loam/gobs)
1 explosives (elves/zoo/dreadnought)
2 pyroclasm (merfolk/elves/zoo/gobs)
3 krosan grip (dreadnought/staxx)

thoughts?

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Originally Posted by sauce

current board:

3 submerge (ta/loam)
2 reb (merfolks/control)
2 pyroblast (merfolks/control)
2 hydroblast (sligh/loam/gobs)
1 explosives (elves/zoo/dreadnought)
2 pyroclasm (merfolk/elves/zoo/gobs)
3 krosan grip (dreadnought/staxx)

thoughts?

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Cut a grip and an EE for 2 PoP thats my only advice.

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Originally Posted by undone

Cut a grip and an EE for 2 PoP thats my only advice.

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i dont feel comfortable w/o 3rd k-grip especially since dreadnought is a 2 turn clock.
there will be plenty of dreadstill present at the GP and i dont think I can afford to dismiss it.
i am sure there will be way more dreadstill than loam.
now that all kinda brings me back to playing relics instead of submerges.. those seem to be so relevant in loam/landstill to turn off the annoying life from the loam or at least to tone it down.

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Originally Posted by sauce

i dont feel comfortable w/o 3rd k-grip especially since dreadnought is a 2 turn clock.
there will be plenty of dreadstill present at the GP and i dont think I can afford to dismiss it.
i am sure there will be way more dreadstill than loam.
now that all kinda brings me back to playing relics instead of submerges.. those seem to be so relevant in loam/landstill to turn off the annoying life from the loam or at least to tone it down.

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Against landstill, your most relevant cards are: (in order) Nimble Mongoose, Krosan Grip, REB. Goose gets there, and grip deals with all of the problem cards. You have stifles and counters for most removal spells, and grip gets crucible off the table as well as removing humility. Yes, relic deals with crucible recursion too. You already run grips, though, so you don't need them. REB obviously makes sure all your spells resolve.

Loam: I haven't tested this as much as I'd like, but Submerge is really awesome in response to a fetch, or just in general.

Team America: Submerge kicks relic's ass. I have tested, and this is my conclusion. You're free to agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by MULocke

Against landstill, your most relevant cards are: (in order) Nimble Mongoose, Krosan Grip, REB. Goose gets there, and grip deals with all of the problem cards. You have stifles and counters for most removal spells, and grip gets crucible off the table as well as removing humility. Yes, relic deals with crucible recursion too. You already run grips, though, so you don't need them. REB obviously makes sure all your spells resolve.

Loam: I haven't tested this as much as I'd like, but Submerge is really awesome in response to a fetch, or just in general.

Team America: Submerge kicks relic's ass. I have tested, and this is my conclusion. You're free to agree to disagree.

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crucible + wasteland lock = gg for us though unless we can just put fetchlands out and then they would force us to basically fetch a real land w/ it so it wont be more than 2 lands in play at any given time... and grip needs 3 mana to destroy the crucible.

i think crucible is a MUST counter vs any deck running it because no good things usually happen afterward.

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Originally Posted by sauce

i dont feel comfortable w/o 3rd k-grip especially since dreadnought is a 2 turn clock.
there will be plenty of dreadstill present at the GP and i dont think I can afford to dismiss it.
i am sure there will be way more dreadstill than loam.
now that all kinda brings me back to playing relics instead of submerges.. those seem to be so relevant in loam/landstill to turn off the annoying life from the loam or at least to tone it down.

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UX aggro control will not show up in with force. (pun intended) At least in the first 4 rounds. You are unlikely to play against a blue deck in the first rounds your likely to play against goblins random scrubs and aggro. As the torny goes on your Blue/x matchup likely hood will increase.

So if you want to even reach the later rounds I advise prepairing for the aggro loam matchup over the dread still matchup. Dreadnaught will not be the biggest part of the metagame and you have tons of MD outs to dreadnaught and if your truely afrade of that deck you just make those 2 slots threads NOT extra grips. You dont need that many grips or even make those slots predators just not the 3rd grip. I have been unimpressed with 3 grip forever.

Since Clemens-Der_imaginäre_Freund (and other people playing his list around the world) has had success with his UGW-Threshold list (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12807) with 4 Goyf, 4 Werebear, 3 Rox War-Monk and 2 Trygon Predator, I’ve been wondering if we could have an analogous creature base for UGR-Threshold.

My naive idea was to play the skeleton of Canadian Threshold without Wasteland, since the mana-base is prone to being screwed via Blood Moon or Back to Basics (and sometimes to non-basic hate in general: Wasteland + Stifle). This choice was obviously motivated by the presence of such nuisances in my meta.

Since I wanted to drop Wasteland, I also dropped Stifle. That being said, I didn’t want to play CB-Top in order to still play tempo-ish (of course to a lesser extent than Canadian Threshold).

Functioning by analogy with Clemens’ list, I had an old school idea I wanted to test in the current meta: Burning-Tree Shaman (which would “replace” War Monk).

This idea was mostly motivated by the following:

My meta is flooded with Merflok, which plays Vial and manlands; UW-Landstill, which plays manlands, fetchlands (and Elspeth) and UGW-Threshold, which plays Top and fetchlands.

Anyhow, I’ll stop rambling and give up with the list I came up with originally. This is by no means a finished list, but I think there’s potential. Maybe not… but I think it’s worth discussing and modifying.

Creatures (12)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Werebear
2 Burning-Tree Shaman
2 Trygon Predator

Control (11)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Spell Snare

Cantrip-Draw (10)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Predict

Burn (8)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire-Ice

Other (2)
2 Pithing Needle

Mana (17)
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
3 Pyroclasm
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Price of Progress
3 Submerge
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle

Pithing Needle is proposed in the maindeck for Vial, manlands, Elspeth, Top and other stuff I can’t think of now.

where did goose go? I can't say enough how much goose rocks in a non heavy permanent build. I've finished so much games with goose where my opponent threw his hand down revealing stp stp and vindicate.

I've been playing Goose in Threshold for over two years now and I agree with you - but I'm still up for testing lists without it (like Clemens' build of UGW-Threshold).

There have been countless discussions these past months about the relevance of Mongoose in the meta(s). Personally, I like Goose but I can also understand the frustration some players have with it when encountering certain situations or match-ups. The list is simply one that takes the point of view of the "non-goose" camp.

The point was not to discuss "to Goose or not to Goose" but rather to see if BTS is a good idea.

I pretty like your list Etienne. I don't see how Needle is that much needed in this build. I see the build as a Burn thresh where you try to race your opponent on life count. I would go +1 BTS and the remaining Daze and cut both needles, as BTS is doing about a similar thing in the deck philosophy.

Both Predicts are really good in there because of the large amount of instant spells we cast early.

On the SB, I would go for PoP, as it fully fits our role. Against Landstill, BTS, burns + PoP can really turn the MU in our advantage and I would say it does way better than any Needles, as we play the aggressor against them, not the control player.

PM

Well, I tested PoP a little bit with what time I had and didn't really like it, so threads ended up in that slot instead. It didn't really matter as the only sb cards I ever played were reb and pyroclasm. I'm still open to the possibility of running price, but it seems counter-intuitive with our strategy of stifle/waste. Also, decks like landstill will fetch basics against us because of wasteland, so it gets weakened. Also, it does literally nothing until the late game, and you really need every card to matter (or at least pitch to force) to get there.

Also, I just want to say congrats on te T8, Dave Caplan!

I made day2 at GP Chicago, with the non tempo(i played countertop) UGr thesh deck (although i play Q-dryad over goose).
My sideboard was
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blasts
3 Hydroblast
3 Price of progress
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroclasm

The only card that was iffy was PoP, while the card did in fact win me a few games, and some games it WOULD have if I had access to my red mana. I found myself only sideboarding in 2. I think 2 is a good number for PoP. You can't simply just CUT it all together, then your matchups against things like aggroloam, 43lands, and 4color thresh, and other things that just take advantage of a surplus of duals simply aren't as strong.

I found 2 Krosan Grips to be just the right amount of number. I was always able to get to them when I needed to.

I really wanted to fit in graveyard hate because I was unable to beat ichorid in the 2 times I played it in the gp main, and in the finals I played of a gpt for it the day prior. Perhaps I should cut 1 pop and 1 pyroclasm for a couple relics/crypts.

Also, the 2 Engineered Explosives I played MD were AMAZING. I was soo tired of having like no solution to a resolved goyf. It also does some incredible things any many matchups, could possibly be my MVP... but we all know that award always goes to Islands.

The only problem I had was, I kept getting blown out by stifles and wastelands. Half of my match losses were from repeated heavy "LD" hands from my opponents in the form of double stifle, wasteland; or double wasteland, stifle. Except for the match where I loss to Kowal round 4, fresh off his 3byes, he knocked me off of my red mana, with double wastleand vindicate game 3 with a PoP safely at the top of my deck (had top in play), just couldn't find a land though :-/

@aTn: FYI, this is the old tempo-oriented list which was played frequently here in Germany some years ago (well, 2k7) when Counterbalance-Thresh came up altogether with Cephalid Breakfast.

Burning Tree Shaman, Vedalken Shackles and Repeal were most of the time the card that simply circumvented Counterbalance. And Burning Tree Shaman brought the pain everytime the opponent was activating his SDT.

He disabled the Cephalid Breakfast combo and also did some extra damage against Landstill.

The deck itself was always rejected here with the argument that Fledgling Dragon is like infinite times better than BTS.

However, here's the list:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=10203

- Portent, + Ponder obv.

Other Top8 appearances made by Dennis' buddy:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=10644 German Legacy Champs Top8

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=10099 random Iserlohn event

And others:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=7813 Jan Sudmann = NQN I believe

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=5485 linux-II-

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Whatever, you get the pattern.

I played a version of UGr Threshold for the GP. Started off the day going 4-0, then had to play a friend, James Mink (T4 DS player) and then it kinda went down hill from there. I ended at 5-3 and dropped so we could all go eat. I think staying up till 5am the night before played a little into that. I played -1 F/I, +1 Sower of Temptation as the difference and that thing was good. Stole a lot of Goyfs, Dreadnaughts, Confidants. Just all around good. I would leave at least 2 PoP in the SB, because it led to my win against RG Aggro Loam in games 2 and 3 (Also Sower of Temptation stealing a 9/9 Terravore helped a lot, too).

I played 2 MD Krosan Grip, which were also completely hot all day long. Surprised just about everyone that got hit by it. We saw a lot of Dredge decks on Friday night, so we included 3 Crypt and 2 Relic, but I only ever boarded them in twice and only actually used it in the RG Loam match before PoP killed him. Deck was pretty fun, but I think I like Nassif's version better. Just has a lot of powerful stuff in it. Grats to Caplan for making T8.

I think the right move was to do like Caplan and have 0 graveyard hate :)

Dredge is almost auto lose against Threshold anyway, why waste precious slots? Although Red has the advantage of burn and pyroclasm to send the zombie team back to the dead world.

MD Krosa Grip : I think it was really a good call. Im not sure if they can make it in a random meta, of course. But certainly, at an event like this one, CB are to be expected everywhere!

Maybe 3 bolt 4 ice and 1 sower would have been a better idea. Or just play 61 cards :]. Ice is so much better than bolt!

Robert

What is the thought process for tempo thresh typically playing 6 fetches as opposed to 8?

Losing less life? Or just to avoid stifle?

Robert

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Originally Posted by Smog

What is the thought process for tempo thresh typically playing 6 fetches as opposed to 8?

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Then you're playing 8 fetches with only 6 lands to find. Also, stifle and life loss I suppose. They're just not necessary.

I'd say:

a) Avoid stifle
b) Preventing undesired suffling effects, (which is not as marginal as one might think) e.g after a ponder

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Originally Posted by Ironstickman

I'd say:

a) Avoid stifle
b) Preventing undesired suffling effects, (which is not as marginal as one might think) e.g after a ponder

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Undesired shuffle effects can be avoided by cracking the fetch before pondering, etc. The problem is that you need to always have a land available to fetch, but if you have 8 fetches with only 6 lands that actually make mana, this is a problem.

I want to bring two cards to discussion:

Cerebral Vortex

Electrolyze

Ok, the first one is just a funny card, I would really like to play it in response to the Ritual, Ritual, Ad Nauseam (10). But that is all about it.

But what do you think of the latter? I know that it is a bit clunky, but I like how it dodges CB, has the right color for FoW and is capable of killing two weenies (although this is maybe a moot point, as there are not many x/1 creatures worthy a bolt - Confidant, Lackey... ahem - Ichorid?) With 4/4/? split of Bolt/Fire_Ice/Electro, we have great ammount of burn to finish the game quickly once the board stalls...

EDIT: Btw, I thought of adding BTS to some deck, too. I have them for two years now and played them.. twice? I remembered them yesterday, when I lost some games on MWS to another similarly vexing card - Kederekt Parasite.

Ad Nauseam doesn't draw card so Cerebral Vortex wouldn´t be any use there anyway.

The fact that electrolyte doesn't tap make it absolutely inferior to Fire/Ice.
When using Fire, Electrolyte can be somehow compared to it. But due to the fact that Ice is extremely relevant in certain MU, and that Electrolyte can't do Ice, I think we can conclude that Fire/Ice is simply superior to Electrolyte. Both manacost wise, but also because of the tap-permanent ability.

Robert

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Originally Posted by Enigma

I don't see how Needle is that much needed in this build. I see the build as a Burn thresh where you try to race your opponent on life count.

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I didn't test much the list I proposed, but I expect the deck to possibly have problems vs CB-Top (obviously)... so I think Needle on Top is a great play for this deck (in a CB-Top Threshold infested meta). That is why I suggested Needle in the MD.