Miracle Control

I was playing against Merfolk last week with miracles. Cavern is rough because I don't run any land hate (a single blood moon sideboard that didn't show up, and isn't necessarily worth it anyways). I lost one game to a turn 2 chalice. When i found EE, they had a FOW of course and I couldn't stop the beatdowns. Game 3 they resolved TNN fast because of cavern, and when i terminused it away, they just played a second one and held up countermagic for any other terminus. It's pretty rough. Very very different than elves. Also islandwalk can hurt bad.

It's not that the deck is impossible, but it's much harder than elves, which practically autofolds to a single terminus and countertop most of the time.

To be fair, I don't think any of you took Poron's advice of running Null Rod in the sideboard. Maybe that significantly affects the Merfolk matchup.

Jesus Christ the miracle hate is strong on cockatrice. Just played against a jund dude packing chains, needle, sylvan, blasts, x2 choke. And that's seeing half the deck or something (but can't believe he got more). Still won via snapcaster and clique while choked out : D


By the way, 4 snaps are totally the way to go, its the best creature in the mirror too.

honestly, If Merfolk is so strong why Sliver isn't a deck?

3 colors are no issue in Legacy and they have 12 lords + Shrouder + Lifelinker + Flyer and any techy creatures we will ever think of...

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Originally Posted by Poron

honestly, If Merfolk is so strong why Sliver isn't a deck?

3 colors are no issue in Legacy and they have 12 lords + Shrouder + Lifelinker + Flyer and any techy creatures we will ever think of...

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I guess to start, lifelink and flying mean fuck all vs miracles, but drawing cards and countering spells does? And that whole unblockable thing, as well as every creature in the deck pitching to Force? Don't even know why I'm entering this conversation honestly, but there's some food for thought...

vs Miracle Flying is as good as islandwalk.
and Sliver has Shroud and resiloency ti Reb which is pretty relevant.
If they can protect their Vial they can go off even faster and better.

Yea, they can pack Disenchant and StP as well..

If merfolk is so strong why aren't Sliver and Merfolk at least 5% of the meta?

edit: ah yeah sorry! haha
Syphon Sliver version also plays Abrupt Decay and Krosan Grip
I try to sleeve a list...

Hello all,

I am a DnT player that is branching out right now for other decks. I checked the last few pages to see if this idea was brought up, but I did not see it. I am looking to make miracles slightly different than what I see generally. Has anyone thought about a playset of Young Pyro and maybe 2 or 3 Mentor in the Counterbalance/Top shell? Would that be viable with a list something like this below?
MB:
21 Lands
4 YP
3 Mentor
2 Snapcaster
4 Top
4 CB
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Swords
2 Jace
2 Bolt
3 Probe
4 FoW

Thanks for you considerations!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tristin183

Hello all,

I am a DnT player that is branching out right now for other decks. I checked the last few pages to see if this idea was brought up, but I did not see it. I am looking to make miracles slightly different than what I see generally. Has anyone thought about a playset of Young Pyro and maybe 2 or 3 Mentor in the Counterbalance/Top shell? Would that be viable with a list something like this below?
MB:
21 Lands
4 YP
3 Mentor
2 Snapcaster
4 Top
4 CB
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Swords
2 Jace
2 Bolt
3 Probe
4 FoW

Thanks for you considerations!

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That is a countertop deck, and it doesn't involve miracles cards at all. There are numerous other threads about potential countertop shells, exactly with the cards your considering, but I don't think that this is the place for such a discussion. Please feel free to correct me, anyone else who frequents this, but this is not a miracle shell.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Minniehajj

That is a countertop deck, and it doesn't involve miracles cards at all. There are numerous other threads about potential countertop shells, exactly with the cards your considering, but I don't think that this is the place for such a discussion. Please feel free to correct me, anyone else who frequents this, but this is not a miracle shell.

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Agreed, this is something else.

And if you want to branch out and learn new decks, radically changing one probably isn't the best way to start.

Thank you all for your words. I suppose it isn't a Miracle shell, but it is countertop. I will look elsewhere for assistance!

Has anyone used the rest in peace version of Miracles?? In theory it seems like a great idea because I don't think we get much value out of our graveyard, outside of in comparison to decks like bug, dredge, lands, Loam, jund, etc. and it can either win via combo or entreat. I'm fairly new to the deck so I wouldn't be surprised if I am completely mistaken but tell me what yall think.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Black of all trades

Has anyone used the rest in peace version of Miracles?? In theory it seems like a great idea because I don't think we get much value out of our graveyard, outside of in comparison to decks like bug, dredge, lands, Loam, jund, etc. and it can either win via combo or entreat. I'm fairly new to the deck so I wouldn't be surprised if I am completely mistaken but tell me what yall think.

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http://i.tcgplayer.com/52206.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tristin183

Thank you all for your words. I suppose it isn't a Miracle shell, but it is countertop. I will look elsewhere for assistance!

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Shameless plug for a possible thread you might be interested in. Not a countertop shell, more like Mentor:http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29428-Punishing-Dack-Miracle and http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...1-Esper-Mentor

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Black of all trades

Has anyone used the rest in peace version of Miracles?? In theory it seems like a great idea because I don't think we get much value out of our graveyard, outside of in comparison to decks like bug, dredge, lands, Loam, jund, etc. and it can either win via combo or entreat. I'm fairly new to the deck so I wouldn't be surprised if I am completely mistaken but tell me what yall think.

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I assume you mean the version that has Enlightened Tutor? That version is pretty powerful, and was quite popular a few years ago, initially, but it lacks consistency and Enlightened tutor is card disadvantage built in, which isn't something we necessarily want. 4Ponder variant is built around the idea of being smooth and consistent, which is why it's quite a bit more popular now. It's also a lot less clunky than the Etutor version can be. While you mention that it is powerful, it suffers from sometimes drawing the wrong side of the deck in matchups where they don't matter as much, and is significantly weaker in the mirror. An example of the mirror in question would be our own Einherjar playing against my good friend from the Chicago area, Nick Hess, who was on the Etutor version of the deck. The video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h9qnmvQhAo

The video is short, but I was there at the event watching, and it wasn't even remotely close. The bombs were answered by cheap mana counterspells and removal, and having a clunky build isn't what we want overall, I don't think.

Most of the above is simply from my personal experience with various builds of the deck, so anyone else is welcome to chime in as well :

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by AnziD

http://i.tcgplayer.com/52206.jpg

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Also this. You underestimate the power of snapcaster mage if you don't think we gain much value from the graveyard ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Black of all trades

Has anyone used the rest in peace version of Miracles?? In theory it seems like a great idea because I don't think we get much value out of our graveyard, outside of in comparison to decks like bug, dredge, lands, Loam, jund, etc. and it can either win via combo or entreat. I'm fairly new to the deck so I wouldn't be surprised if I am completely mistaken but tell me what yall think.

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Biggest downside is not being able to run Snapcaster Mage. In a Meta that relies on its GY heavily I suppose its a worthwhile concession, but Snappy is a big source of consistency for the deck so be careful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Poron

vs Miracle Flying is as good as islandwalk.
and Sliver has Shroud and resiloency ti Reb which is pretty relevant.
If they can protect their Vial they can go off even faster and better.

Yea, they can pack Disenchant and StP as well..

If merfolk is so strong why aren't Sliver and Merfolk at least 5% of the meta?

edit: ah yeah sorry! haha
Syphon Sliver version also plays Abrupt Decay and Krosan Grip
I try to sleeve a list...

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No one is saying Merfolk is strong, they're saying it's strong against Miracles. And yeah a nut draw from a Sliver deck might be strong against Miracles as well, but part of analyzing the matchup is thinking about how likely that nut draw is. If it's a bad matchup in 5% of the cases where they vomit their hand onto the board and have protection and you can't find a Terminus, but a good matchup in the other 95%, then that's a good matchup! Goblins is also strong against Miracles, but guess what, it's weak to lots of other decks and that's why the only people who play it are the people who really love Goblins.

I understand that you're interested in the deck, but I think you should look at the fact that literally everyone here is disagreeing with you, and how likely it is that they're all wrong. This thread contains thoughts and opinions of people who've won and top 8'ed GPs, SCG events, and other big tournaments around the world, and you're giving advice to newer players based on your experiences running Null Rod (the card that OTHER decks bring in to turn off our Tops) to defeat all the MUD decks you encounter on Cockatrice. I really don't think your experiences can be extended to the entire format.

Ok thanks for the insight on that, I guess I'm just sorta hating how bad im getting owned when I run this deck. I went to two tourneys and only have won 1 round. I'm just trying to find someway to end games quicker but it seems I'll just have to get used to playing the deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Black of all trades

Ok thanks for the insight on that, I guess I'm just sorta hating how bad im getting owned when I run this deck. I went to two tourneys and only have won 1 round. I'm just trying to find someway to end games quicker but it seems I'll just have to get used to playing the deck.

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Miracles is a deck that absolutely requires numerous repetitions, vast knowledge of the format, and, overall, practice. Don't get discouraged, you'll lose a lot at first, but it's extremely rewarding to learn to play well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Black of all trades

Ok thanks for the insight on that, I guess I'm just sorta hating how bad im getting owned when I run this deck. I went to two tourneys and only have won 1 round. I'm just trying to find someway to end games quicker but it seems I'll just have to get used to playing the deck.

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Usually it goes like this:

>Lose for 6 months
>Keep going
>Start winning some
>nearly there...
>suddenly you understand what you're going to do, and you're somewhat golden

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Black of all trades

Ok thanks for the insight on that, I guess I'm just sorta hating how bad im getting owned when I run this deck. I went to two tourneys and only have won 1 round. I'm just trying to find someway to end games quicker but it seems I'll just have to get used to playing the deck.

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It is a very tough deck to play, and an extremely tough deck to play quickly. It's also a known quantity and the ways for other decks to fight it are both well established (Null Rod, Wear//Tear, how to destroy Top, how to play around CB) and well practised by the people who pilot them. When you play the "best deck", you put a target on your back.

Combine an inexperienced Miracles pilot with an experienced other-deck pilot and well-trodden anti-Miracles tech, and the result is that you'll lose a LOT for a while. Once you learn to play around the hate and know exactly what to dig for and what your outs are (when to shuffle, how to stack a Top, how to order spells to dig deep), you'll be able to play around the hate and win. But the only way to learn those is the hard way. Don't give up!

http://www.toplevelpodcast.com/the-p...nastery-mentor

31:08

"This card is insane, Karakas is crazy" - Patrick Chapin

I trust Hall of Fame player's insight.