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Wrote a comment in the Report page. Well done.
@Ashen Rider vs Trini: Right now, with decks killing using DTT and cantrips to find Cunning Wish and insta Kill you, Trini is Better.
@ Cursed Totem: Though I've never thought about it, we'd have to weigh if shutting down elves, and MoM and Stoneforge from DnT, while not being able to use Kernko, SGC, Prospector, Sharpshooter, etc is worth it. I don't think it is.
I understand the impact of 3Sphere (killed Omnitell on the back of it, while playing Rg Combo Lands), but feel like I really would pair it with Ports and Choke for extra value/ effect. That said, Ashen Raider does seem a bit weak in today's meta indeed.
In other news: got my set of Subterranean Scout today. Feel like brewing a aggresive deck with the little guy!
Is anyone else currently testing Subterranean Scout? I run the classic build and I ended up swapping my Mogg War Marshals for them. They were just more relevant more often. I'm doing rather well in my local meta (Dredge, Storm, Reanimator, Nic Fit, Jeskai Stoneblade, Death and Taxes, Merfolk). He has been enabling alpha strikes on board states where I normally couldn't and is the minimum size for a respectable creature in our deck. He simply clocks better than Mogg War Marshal. It might be because there are no Tarmogoyfs in my meta, so I haven't needed the chumps. I feel pretty good about all of my match-up's except storm-- because Storm.
Maindeck
3 Mountain
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Tin Street Hooligan
2 Subterranean Scout
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Tarfire
2 Pyrokinesis
Sideboard
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Containment Priest
2 Krosan Grip
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Stingscourger
Does anyone else have any data on him?
@ Olaf: interesting build you got there. Right now I got the following list:
Core (24)
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Aether Vial
Other (14)
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Subterranean Scout
3 Tarfire
Mana (22)
1 Taiga
2 Chrome Mox
2 Pendelhaven
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
Sideboard (15)
1 Stingscourger
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Trinisphere
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Chalice of the Void
- Not sure about Chrome Mox or Green splash. It does give explosiveness and acces to TTH, which keeps the cmc low. The Moxen can be easily Mountains if I should take them out. Pendelhavens have been in it for so long, never took them out. It's a nice 'tech' and a green source.
- Krenko or Kiki-Jiki? Krenko gives Mass and Swarm. Kiki-Jiki gives extra shenanigans with Scout. It also raises the cmc slightly.
- Sideboard is just a mess, not sure about any card but the Gravehate (sort of). Also, because I don't really like TSH I always opt for TTH in the SB.
Had some testing, which was fun. Had no chance to run the list on a real tournament, unfortunately.
well, thalia and priests are pretty bad against storm (well.. not bad, but unefficient, since you cant play 2 thalias, unfortunately). i guess u have enough hate against reanimator and dredge, so i would lower their count for ethersworn canonist, which kicks a lot of ass against storm , omnitell and elves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard
mindbreak trap is interesting, but canonist is less narrow. I mean, it is only good against storm and t1 decks (specially belcher), and belcher dont seem to worry you very much.
so i guess this sideboard should do it for u
-1 thalia
-1 mindbreak traps
+2 canonist
trust me: canonist is storm`s great nightmare. i've played storm for 2 years, and it is really troublesome.
hope it helps.
Hi and thank you! I have not tried Carpet of Flowers at all. Carpet seems okay, but the main reason for the green splash is for Krosan Grip so that we can shut out OmniTell, in my opinion. Generating extra mana is sweet versus other matchups, but at the end of the day casting another Ringleader off of your free mana isn't going to save you from the Flying Spaghetti Monster.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
As for the other matchups it does seem extremely helpful - I know I would have loved that extra mana to pay around the Daze that blew out my Siege-Gang Commander against BURG Delver :( However that match was entirely winnable had I not drawn all three of my Chrome Moxen anyway so I don't believe we need the help.
If my local area has some I may try it out at our next Legacy FNM, just to see if my hypothesis is correct or way off base.
These are all reasons to play warchief (if you want it), but I really don't think you want more than 4 or 5 "lord" effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Pyre
On a separate note, can someone explain to me the purpose of playing Goblin lists without a bomb to put into play off of the Lackey? With all the lightning bolts flying around everywhere (hence the overnight-demise of playing Magus of the Moon) why would you want Krenko (who barely ever generates an advantage), and then at that only a single copy in the 75? If you're going to attempt to generate a mana-advantage with chrome moxen and 4 Lackeys and Instigators (which may very well be correct right now) as well as the Subterranean Scouts, why would you not have anything really good in your decklist to cheat into play? I just don't understand this mentality to deckbuilding.
I'm not trying to troll or be condescending, I just genuinely don't understand why in a deck that swarms it's opponents with Goblins and card advantage, we're not trying to maximise that angle, e.g Siege Gang Commander.
(Keep in mind that I've only seriously been playing Goblins for a few months now so I may not be entirely correct, this is just my experience)Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
The mana advantage here is that if you cheat Matron and Ringleader into play off of an Instigator - you've generated 7 total Mana, 3 total power, and anywhere from 4 cards to 0 (but have removed 4 probably dead draws from the top of your deck in that instance). No other deck can really do something like that in a single turn. You don't need to cheat a Siege-Gang Commander into play every time - and since Lightning Bolts ARE everywhere, that means that even if your Instigator on T1/T2 gets removed, you can immediately follow it up with a Matron or Chieftain to keep up the pressure and advantage, whereas Siege-Gang or Kiki-Jiki would be stuck in your hand.
Krenko is generally not there to play versus the Lightning Bolt or Plow decks - hence moving him to the side. He is great versus decks that rely on Abrupt Decay and Disfigure as removal.
However, now that I think about it, T1 Instigator into first strike Matron, 2nd Strike Siege-Gang seems absolutely hilarious...
Oh I should point out that I'm not asking that question at you/your decklist at all. I quite liked your list for having the capability to dump a Siege Gang into play, whether it was via your hand or via 1st strike ringleader/matron into 2nd strike Siege Gang. I also liked the ability to bring in the Krenko from the side, if you can't blood moon em (because that card doesn't make much sense in the meta right now) then Krenko is theoretically at least good. Plus 4 chieftains can sorta hope to make him bolt proof against Grixis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Pyre
Other winstigator lists I have seen are playing 0 or 1 "fatties" (for lack of a better term) even though the whole decklist is designed to get a lackey effect to connect. So your late game is compromised because topdecking anything but Matron/Ringleader past turn 5 might be the very definition of the feelbads, but then your early game isn't that much quicker anyway, so what's the attraction?
As I said earlier, in a meta as fast as Legacy is currently I can see arguments for Winstigator builds, especially vs Omni decks. What I don't understand is not building your 75 to have the potential to really put the "pedal to the metal" and keep it there.
I wasn't taking offense at all ^^ Being able to absorb and integrate criticism into your deckbuilding is a valuable skill. Rejecting other's ideas without consideration is, well, narrow minded. Discussion is great!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
While connecting into a turn 2 Ringleader might not seem impressive, it feels great after you've pitched a red card to a Chrome Mox on the first turn. Leaving options open and not being hellbent feel a lot safer than dropping in a Siege-Gang, having very few cards in hand, and then getting sweepered or some such. Perhaps I'm being too cautious, though.
If I'm feeling particularly saucy, I may try a list on Friday with 3 Siege-Gang to test the full throttle theory...
@ Steve: Aah yes, the classic 'Krenko vs SGC'-debate. Let me first say this: I've played both, and always going back and forth between the two. One thing I've learned: they both die to LB. Only difference: when not played correctly Krenko leaves you with nothing. Yet played correctly, Krenko will leave you with more than SGC has to offer, thus you in a better position.
I will not try to argue which one is best, rather I will give you my reasons why I opted for Krenko:
If he taps, it will be for value.
What does this mean? I have six haste-lords, five one-drop Gobbo's, and eight two-drops MD. My aim is getting (preferabel) a Piledriver through the walls, using Scout. When a Lackey hits, I usually drop Matron, haste-lord or Ringleader into play. Never ever Krenko. Krenko is there to give extra bodies, a lot of extra bodies. I tend to hold back on him, until I want a Alpha-strike. Besides that, Krenko is also cheaper, keeps your Vial at four, and with six haste-lords will normally have one+ activation.
SGC can be dropped without thinking, Krenko needs a bit of calculation and dedication.
My Goblin Settler arrived in the mail and my Tribe is complete.
For a while some people were playing the Kiki-Jiki + Goblin Settler package in Instigator lists. I've been away for some time though. How do you think they fit in the current meta, compared to SGC, Krenko, Fatty-less, etc.?
That was my sideboard 2 weeks ago. I just swapped over to try this. I'm pretty sure I'm going to cut back down to 2 Mindbreak Traps but I want to actually draw it before I make that decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by seilaquem
I'm not sure where you got that Thalia "isn't very good" against storm, but if it hasn't panned out for you as it has for me I suggest giving her another run. Ever since her release I've been very happy with her as tech against all combo decks, up to and including storm. I was running Thorn of Amethyst back then and it was good, she's just better than that.
sorry, my choice of words was really poor =(Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard
what i mean is: thalia usually relies on other hateplans, since you can manage them:
1- for ant - dropping all your mana for an Ad nauseam kill.
2- tes - aggressive mulligan for t1-2 kills
if thalia weren't legendary, you would play 2, and that would be that =X
the thing is: thalias are only good when you have some other hateplan (canonist, port, waste, traps, etc.)
that's what i meant by "isn't very good". cause she is usually decayed, and you are dead before you can cast the second thalia.
sure, lately TES has been using pyroclasm for that, but their best plan is t1-2 kills.
so what I am suggesting is playing hate that you can cast 2 or 3 hate cards (and opp is dead, like D&T plan), or the "cut their graveyard" plan (relic should do that, just fine, but it doesn't stop natural tendrils).
chalice of the void (for 0 and 1), thorn of amethyst and sphere of resistence are also fine.
hope It helps you.
I am currently running him as a one of with Break Through the Line. My current results have been quite positive. Getting early lackey hits or making pile driver unblockable late game is wonderful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard
I'm currently running this
2x Goblin Chieftain
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
3x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
3x Goblin Warchief
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Mogg War Marshal
1x Krenko, Mob Boss
1x Skirk Prospector
1x Subterranean Scout
1x Tuktuk Scrapper
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Tarfire
1x Break Through the Line
4x AEther Vial
3x Lotus Petal
3x Chalice of the Void
4x Arid Mesa
3x Cavern of Souls
3x Mountain
2x Plateau
3x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
I played against Reanimator last night. Being able to swing through a Griselbrand was relevant and won me the game.
I am also running Lotus Petal to get early threats such as turn one Thalia, Chalice of the Void, or double Lackey/Aether Vial. I have also been enjoying Chieftain and his interactions with damage.
I'm already seeing a problem with Sub Scout. He's making lists wayyyy crowded. I do think he has promise though, and I think he can work well with a variety of lists. This is the first that pops into my head though...
4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Winstigator
4 Piledirver
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Chieftain
3 Sub Scout
3 Tarfire
2 Siege Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
1 Gempalm (or Flex)
3 Chrome Mox
2 Pendelhaven
4 Cavern
4 Waste
9 Mountain/fetch/Taiga
One cool thing I just realized about Sub Scout is that he increases your odds of getting a SGC in play, meaning you have better access to SGC as removal, so it isn't that big of a deal to cut Gempalms or Sharpshooter. And, since SGC comes with extra bodies he can take the place of Krenko and MWM as well. Seems good. The list still feels tight though, and having another fatty option is still on my wish-list.
I like this list, but isn't 3 tarfire and 3 scout overkill? I would -2 tarfire.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
Dunno, but we still need removal. Sub Scout lets us revel in the trend of Legacy becoming less and less interactive, but it does not fulfill the same role as spot removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by kinda
@ jrw1985: what about Kiki-Jiki as (2nd or 3rd) bomb?. In a list with WInstigator it looks particulariteit good: copying Scout or SGC etc etc
While I like sub scout, and definitely look forward to testing him (I forgot to put him in my list last night, whoops!), I don't think you want to drop Tarfire so low. 2 or 3 seems like a good number. Remember, you often need to be able to kill things more than you want a lackey/winstigator to connect.