All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by maharis

The problem with "just play TNN answers" is that those cards are narrow, often symmetrical (so you lose some of your own board presence to answer their guy) and a dice roll as to if they will even be effective. For example, edicts don't work if they have another creature, EE for 3 kills all your 3 drops, -1/-1 effects kill your x/1s and are useless if the thing is suited up, etc etc.

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Sure, all fair points as well, but if the thrust of the argument is, "I just can't ever beat this guy once he's in play!" that's not necessarily true, it's just that people don't want to adjust to it - it'd be wonderful if no one played counterspells and I could just cut all the discard spells from my ANT deck for things that helped me combo, but sometimes you have to make deckbuilding concessions that make your main weaker so that you can have outs to things that beat your deck. If the choice is "I can kill my own x/1 and their otherwise unkillable guy and still have a chance" versus "I'm just dead to mini progenitus" why not try option 1?

Plus, sometimes it isn't actually worth it, and you have to acknowledge sometimes they're going to get you - generally people don't play a bounce spell in ANT and just end up losing to Gaddock Teeg game 1. You could add one, as there are flex slots, but in general people have decided it's not worth it. Maybe TNN is the Gaddock Teeg of "play some green duders and get in there" decks.

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Originally Posted by maharis

It's also a small point but the fact that TNN doesn't get hit by red damage-based sweepers cuts off a lot of answers that might be otherwise good. A deck like Czech Pile should get cleaned out by Pyroclasm, but no one can play that card because it's dead vs. TNN. (And spare me the "der it showed up in X sideboard." People still play Knight despite it sucking against TNN, what I mean is that these cards have less room to breathe.)

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Yeah, when I was coming up with my response earlier I was actually super surprised that there isn't a three mana pyroclasm variant with "damage can't be prevented" on it - I thought volcanic fallout did that, but it is uncounterable, as it turns out. That would be a nice printing, especially at like RR or something, but I doubt that makes it into a standard-legal set.

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Originally Posted by maharis

And yes Chalice and 3ball are uninteractive as well, but they have real deckbuilding considerations. TNN asks nothing of its owner other than playing U. Even NO -> Progenitus requires you to have another creature in play and resolve a 4 mana sorcery that costs 2 green mana. (There's no Spell Pierce for creatures.)

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I personally don't think that having deckbuilding considerations absolves any particular card of its miserableness, and miserableness isn't a reasonable banning criteria for the most part.

"Spell Pierce for creatures" got me really excited to read, not gonna lie. In this particular case, you can actually play red blasts to pierce their TNNs, though, too, as another option.

My 1,000th post, make a wish!

unban Survival

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Originally Posted by taconaut

Yeah, when I was coming up with my response earlier I was actually super surprised that there isn't a three mana pyroclasm variant with "damage can't be prevented" on it - I thought volcanic fallout did that, but it is uncounterable, as it turns out. That would be a nice printing, especially at like RR or something, but I doubt that makes it into a standard-legal set.

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Yeah I've always said if they did :r::r: Pyroclasm for 1 damage but it can't be prevented, people would still play Pyroclasm but this would have it's own spot in decks.
Especially around the time they were printing Skullcrack I was thinking this would be right around the corner, but I guess it's a big corner...

Don't worry, they'll eventually print "For each creature, move it into its owner's graveyard if 1 damage would be lethal to it." for 1U.

Just print a card that says "Blue creatures can't attack."

Solves half the real problems in the format.

Make it a blue card, too.

I would murder for an earthquake that can't be prevented. It's really miserable that you really need to be playing black or those bad white edicts to effectively have good answers to resolved Skill Name Nemesis

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Just print a card that says "Blue creatures can't attack."

Solves half the real problems in the format.

Make it a blue card, too.

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Llawan, Cephalid Empress with a casting cost power creep.

At this point I want either a power-creeped Fallout with "damage can't be prevented" as mentioned earlier, or a Sulfur Elemental for blue. Better yet, both of these cards. I would maindeck both of them in red stompy.

I just want them to print Slide in Modern or make some decently costed cycling cards.

While TNN is linear and format warping I don't think it is to an extent that it breaks the format. There are answers in a variety of colors and decks that ignore him completely

Personally I'm fine with the format, but I am solidly in the #banprobe camp. No matter what deck you're playing it feels pretty bad when your opponent has perfect information to start cantripping into a hand tailored to beat yours from turn 1 at essentially no cost. It doesn't really stifle the meta or shut down anything though so I don't know if we'll see a ban but it is just an un-fun card.

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Originally Posted by morgan_coke

I just want them to print Slide in Modern or make some decently costed cycling cards.

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We are on the same wavelength my friend. Slide is my #1 wanted reprint in Modern, and would make me want to play that format again.

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Originally Posted by pinkfrosting

While TNN is linear and format warping I don't think it is to an extent that it breaks the format. There are answers in a variety of colors and decks that ignore him completely

Personally I'm fine with the format, but I am solidly in the #banprobe camp. No matter what deck you're playing it feels pretty bad when your opponent has perfect information to start cantripping into a hand tailored to beat yours from turn 1 at essentially no cost. It doesn't really stifle the meta or shut down anything though so I don't know if we'll see a ban but it is just an un-fun card.

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Perfect information for no mana has always been broke. I also want Cabal Therapy to actually be a fun and skill-intensive card again, which it most definitely is not with Probe available. Creatures that you can't interact with at all aren't necessarily format breaking but are miserable and should be undone.

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Originally Posted by Jander78

Llawan, Cephalid Empress with a casting cost power creep.

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Believe me, I'm at the point that I'm so fed up with the fucking card that I play multiple Llawan in any fair blue deck I play at this point.

The problem with most of the removal for the card is that it's narrow and generally bad. Ever stared down a turn 2 True Name off of Deathrite with a Diabolic Edict in your hand?

Never had a big issue with TNN, but I'd be cool with a linear card like:

Fish Fry 1R
Sorcery

Fish Fry cannot be countered.
Fish Fry deals 2 damage to each blue creature.
This damage cannot be prevented.

Fred wanted his friends to think he liked the taste,
but he truly just wanted to watch the scaly bastards suffer.
Suffer as he had.

Seems fair and balanced to me. BRB, stuffing face with fried fish.

Yes, it is obviously not done with just exchanging a few slots with cards that could handle TNN theoretically. Instead you might have to make bigger concessions and play strategies that these blue midrange goodstuff decks are lackluster against. You cannot just continue to play one's petdeck for years without adaption.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I think after tonight I'm done with this format as long as true name exists. The card is fucking miserable. I realize it's never going to be banned so fuck it. I can't do it anymore. I just dropped at 1-1 at local because the card kills any interesting interaction that exists in a fair game of Magic for little cost.

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Jesus what deck are you playing thats so cold to TNN?

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Originally Posted by MorphBerlin

Jesus what deck are you playing thats so cold to TNN?

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Maverick.

I mean we're at a point of the game where a blue 3 drop out classes every green playable creature in the format. Sick format. Oh also blues aggro one drop is better than any green aggro 1 drop, or red. Or white. Or black. Blue gets the best creatures now is what I'm saying. Oh also the best eternal witness ever printed too. So yeah. All held together by the most retarded draw spell not named ancestral that gets to be almost 2/3 of this shit format but it's okay because #SkillIntensive while fucking squirrel combo is too powerful for the format for reasons completely fucking unknown

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I mean we're at a point of the game where a blue 3 drop out classes every green playable creature in the format. Sick format. Oh also blues aggro one drop is better than any green aggro 1 drop, or red. Or white. Or black. Blue gets the best creatures now is what I'm saying. Oh also the best eternal witness ever printed too. So yeah. All held together by the most retarded draw spell not named ancestral that gets to be almost 2/3 of this shit format but it's okay because #SkillIntensive while fucking squirrel combo is too powerful for the format for reasons completely fucking unknown

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If you're going to make "waaah waaaah color pie" arguments then I have to remind you that DRS is green

I mean I get that the color pie is essentially irrelevant. The bigger issue is that the same color has the best creatures, best answers, best draw spells, best walkers best combo pieces. At some point it's like can we get a fucking bone to maybe discourage playing blue? Leovold being one sided chains in blue was the last fucking nail

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

If you're going to make "waaah waaaah color pie" arguments then I have to remind you that DRS is green

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There is nothing wrong with DRS from a color pie standpoint except for MAYBE being able to make mana of any color off a creature by only tapping B instead of G. However, Black does get GY interaction and mana acceleration so that can at least be justified.

That doesn’t mean, of course, that DRS isn’t overpowered. But it also has nothing to do with what Megadeus is saying, which is that a sequence of printings have injected one very particular kind of deck with rocket fuel while other kinds of decks get nothing (or what they do get is so cold to the blue stew that it’s irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by taconaut

Sure, all fair points as well, but if the thrust of the argument is, "I just can't ever beat this guy once he's in play!" that's not necessarily true, it's just that people don't want to adjust to it - it'd be wonderful if no one played counterspells and I could just cut all the discard spells from my ANT deck for things that helped me combo, but sometimes you have to make deckbuilding concessions that make your main weaker so that you can have outs to things that beat your deck. If the choice is "I can kill my own x/1 and their otherwise unkillable guy and still have a chance" versus "I'm just dead to mini progenitus" why not try option 1?

Plus, sometimes it isn't actually worth it, and you have to acknowledge sometimes they're going to get you - generally people don't play a bounce spell in ANT and just end up losing to Gaddock Teeg game 1. You could add one, as there are flex slots, but in general people have decided it's not worth it. Maybe TNN is the Gaddock Teeg of "play some green duders and get in there" decks.

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The difference between TNN to a fair deck and Chalice/Thalia/Teeg to a combo deck is that the latter only need to be off the table for one turn for the combo player to win. The dynamic with TNN in a fair matchup is such that even if you deal with the first one, you are too far behind to come back... and nothing stops them from just having another before you can turn around because the deck-construction cost is so low.

Hey now guys, let's not look a gift Great Sable Stag in the mouth. Format's saved!

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Originally Posted by maharis

That doesn’t mean, of course, that DRS isn’t overpowered. But it also has nothing to do with what Megadeus is saying, which is that a sequence of printings have injected one very particular kind of deck with rocket fuel while other kinds of decks get nothing (or what they do get is so cold to the blue stew that it’s irrelevant.

The difference between TNN to a fair deck and Chalice/Thalia/Teeg to a combo deck is that the latter only need to be off the table for one turn for the combo player to win. The dynamic with TNN in a fair matchup is such that even if you deal with the first one, you are too far behind to come back... and nothing stops them from just having another before you can turn around because the deck-construction cost is so low.

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Well if he meant that, he should have said that, rather than 'boo hoo green creatures aren't good enough'

I don't understand the "ARGH EVEN IF I KILL THIS I CAN'T EVEN WIN HE'S TOO FAR AHEAD" the creature literally does nothing. In Patrick Sullivan's Chupacabra rant it's the legacy version of Baneslayer. You can tap out for 3 mana and lose it to Innocent Blood or Diabolic Edict or Golgari Charm, be down tempo and end up with nothing (not to mention Daze or Pyroblast etc), and even if you can't kill it _IMMEDIATELY_ it's not like a Scarab God or whatever that puts the opponent insanely far ahead every time they untap with it. It just does 3 damage every turn.

If you say:
1) Blue creatures are currently the best and this does not align with wizards vision of the colour pie
2) TNN is a good creature, and certain other cards that used to be good are really bad against it

I don't disagree with either of these statements but I don't think either one demands rebalancing of the competitive environment

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

Maverick.

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If you can't find ways to deal with a TNN in your Green, Black and White deck maybe you should try a more casual format. It's really not that hard

The whining is especially redicilous, since you get to play your own build your own TNN out of any creature for W for years, which renders creature combat basically meaningless and has a window of one turn to be dealt with before rendering spot removal useless as well as TNN....

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Originally Posted by MorphBerlin

The whining is especially redicilous, since you get to play your own build your own TNN out of any creature for W for years, which renders creature combat basically meaningless and has a window of one turn to be dealt with before rendering spot removal useless as well as TNN....

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"A window of one turn to be dealt with before X" makes a huge difference. It is actually so huge that not seeing or dimissing it says a lot.

Also, you can still interact with mom after one turn. You just usually need to accept a 1-for-2. And sometimes you don't even need to (ex : Jitte). Also, mom itself isn't a clock (and if it even tried to, then you could get rid of it anyway, so...).

So, no. This path will lead you to nowhere except discredit.

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Originally Posted by ParkerLewis

"A window of one turn to be dealt with before X" makes a huge difference. It is actually so huge that not seeing or dimissing it says a lot.

Also, you can still interact with mom after one turn. You just usually need to accept a 1-for-2. And sometimes you don't even need to (ex : Jitte). Also, mom itself isn't a clock (and if it even tried to, then you could get rid of it anyway, so...).

So, no. This path will lead you to nowhere except discredit.

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Casually leaving out the main part of my argument.

I did not say mom is the same as tnn, just that is pretty redicilous in fair creature MUs as well and I hope you don't try to deny that. I just wanted to point out the hiporacy as you are fine as long as you get the tools but cry as soon as you face something challenging which you can't incoporate

Except Mom by itself is pretty bad at everything besides blocking (which then exposes it to removal) so it needs another creature to be relevant, plus as said can be removed via many other things whereas against true name you can have a hand of 7 spot removal with your creature out and it will infinitely block your creature while still never being exposed. It's also very low opportunity cost as it by itself is an infinite wall or clock, while mom again constrains deck building by forcing you to play with a decent amount of creatures to actually do anything, also it doesn't exist in the color that gets the other best aggressive 1 drop, best cantrips, and best answers

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Originally Posted by maharis

The difference between TNN to a fair deck and Chalice/Thalia/Teeg to a combo deck is that the latter only need to be off the table for one turn for the combo player to win.

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Sometimes the Chalice also prevents a Storm player from efficiently sculpting their hand; or an Elf layer from dropping dorks and sculpting their board.

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Originally Posted by maharis

The dynamic with TNN in a fair matchup is such that even if you deal with the first one, you are too far behind to come back.

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That would depend on the fair deck.

-Prowess is rarely bothered by a TNN, and should easily outrace.
-Eldrazi should normally be well ahead of most TNN decks. I suspect this is also true of the new Steel Stompy tempo deck.
-D&T is perhaps on a down swing, but has been a solid competitor over the last few years despite the presence of TNN.
-Burn is probably better positioned than it has been in years (would probably do better with more quality pilots), and fears no TNN.

Most fair decks are running counter-spells anyway. What fair decks are really having that much trouble?

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

Maverick.

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Maverick is a tier-2 deck at best. A person who cannot embrace a Legacy without Maverick is never going to be happy again.

Legacy currently features strong prison, stompy, combo, and (hard) control decks all populating the top tiers. There is only so much room for fair magic midrange and tempo decks in a format this diverse in play-styles.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

Maverick is a tier-2 deck at best. A person who cannot embrace a Legacy without Maverick is never going to be happy again.

Legacy currently features strong prison, stompy, combo, and (hard) control decks all populating the top tiers. There is only so much room for fair magic midrange and tempo decks in a format this diverse in play-styles.

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The B&R-List would have to get alot longer for a deck like maverick to be good again, it's just a worse creature deck than d&t and a worse midrange deck then the e.g. BUG, Grixis and 4C variants. TNN is dull I agree, but there are alot of cards that are actually worse than it to that regard and it's defenitly not a problem for the format power wise. Just alot of whining by people not acepting that the format has evolved past their petdeck.

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Originally Posted by MorphBerlin

I did not say mom is the same as tnn, just that is pretty redicilous in fair creature MUs as well and I hope you don't try to deny that. I just wanted to point out the hiporacy as you are fine as long as you get the tools but cry as soon as you face something challenging which you can't incoporate

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Yes, I'll be denying that. The fact that you dare such a comparison shows that you don't even know what you're talking about. Regarding your lazy comment about what I could or could not "incoporate", while you know nothing about me, my position regarding TNN, or the kind of decks I play or have played, I'll just respond with a condescending smile :smile:.

Also, I've never been a hippocrat. This is redicilous.

All this maverick hate :(. The deck isn't that bad, very few people play it though.

I'm not really bothered by True Name. Sure TNN brick walling Knight is annoying but if it has to stay back and have a staring contest with your knight then you at least get to crop rotate every turn with her while their 3 drop does literal nothing. We also have main deck options to get around it like Dark Depths, Mother, and SoFI. Out of the sideboard we're lucky that we actually have good answers, you don't know how fortunate you are to have access to Zealous Persecution until you see Death and Taxes players sleeve up hot garbage like Holy Light. You also get access to Thoughtseize which lets you handle TNN while making your combo matchup decent.

Sure, it's annoying that blue gets awesome creatures- Leovold being blue instead of abzan and Delver of Secrets being in the same set as Reckless Waif, a card that is harder to flip, lacks a keyword, and is even an uncommon, was really ?????. But nothing that I think cards should get banned over.

Just to make sure I'm up to speed, it seems the hated card du jour is triple-costed Delver with Hexproof. Just checking.

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Originally Posted by MorphBerlin

Just alot of whining by people not acepting that the format has evolved past their petdeck.

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Is it all that unwarranted? Bear with me for a second.

Part of Legacy's appeal comes from the eternal and non-rotating nature. You can use cards from any time in the history of Magic and they don't rotate out in a planned obsolescence scheme (a la Standard or 1.X). This means you can buy into a deck and have confidence it will still be playable, in some sense, years down the road.

Currently, Legacy doesn't do a good job of fulfilling this. Decks are falling by the wayside left and right as power-creeped bullshit forces its way into the format and bad bans kill off other archetypes (RIP Survival, RIP decks that needed SDT to function). Too many decks are relegated to the tier 30%winrateagainsttheFNMfield dustbin while all the power ossifies around a few pillars of the format (some of which are very SKILL INTENSIVE).

"Well that's competitive formats for you; adapt or die" is the predicted response. Problem here is that this isn't very fun nor interesting in Legacy. Distinct, interesting archetypes aren't rising up to replace the pet decks consigned to oblivion, the same archetypes just gobble up more of the metagame share.

Compare to Modern...yep I'm going there. I've shat on that format as much as probably anybody else here; what kind of shit format has to ban Wild Nactl, am I right guys? But looking at recent tournaments, especially the most recent Promotional Tour, it's a real dynamic format. Sure, your shit gets banned for no reason, but there are interesting new decks popping up all over. The finals were Lantern Control vs a non-Blue Young Pyromancer deck. A pile built around Burning Inquiry and Goblin fucking Lore was the breakout deck of the tournament. And the big favorite decks underperformed.

Shit, this reminds of the halcyon days of Legacy where every top 8, from week to week, would be completely unpredictable, where any cries of "ban X" were silenced by hardly any appearances in the top tables of the next big tournament (even including Blue cards).

But instead of interesting stuff like this, we can get excited about the nth tiny iteration on the Blue stew, what cards du jour Tomb/City/Chalice decks kill with (Exalted Angel is making a comeback, I'm sure!), and maybe get enraged like Borborygmos when some rapscallion trolls us with a fake pirate deck. Oh yeah, and be way more SKILL INTENSIVE.

Can't remember the last time we had a deck as outside the lines as the deck that got to the finals in modern do something like that at a large event. It has to have been years right?

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Can't remember the last time we had a deck as outside the lines as the deck that got to the finals in modern do something like that at a large event. It has to have been years right?

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Probably BR Sire of Insanity or something.

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Originally Posted by Brainstorm Ape

Distinct, interesting archetypes aren't rising up to replace the pet decks consigned to oblivion, the same archetypes just gobble up more of the metagame share.

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I'm not buying this at all.

In the time since Maverick fell out of favour (2012-2013) we have seen the rise of:

-Eldrazi
-RGCL
-RB Reanimator
-Infect
-GB Elves
-Steel Stompy
-New Miracles.

We get plenty of new decks that are interesting and 100% distinct. The only thing we aren't really getting are linear aggro decks and cantrip-free midranges decks. That's hardly the end of the world.

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Originally Posted by Rascalyote

All this maverick hate :(

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I've got no bad feelings towards Maverick as a deck. I suspect it's firmly tier-2, but still very capable.

What I don't understand is how people seem to ignore the wealth of distinct archetypes in this format all for the lack of a tier-1 blueless "fair magic" midrange option.

Steel Stompy is nothing like Mud (or Eldrazi), but some people refuse to recognise it as innovation - unable to see past the Sol Lands and Chalice. Likewise all decks with canntrips; or all decks with DRS, are essentially the same. Maverick, and only Maverick, is truly distinctive. And there is no shortage of hyperbolic nonsense to support this.

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Originally Posted by Rascalyote

The deck isn't that bad, very few people play it though.

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I always felt this way about Aggro Loam in the SDT Miracles era.

Interestingly, Aggro Loam seems to have dropped of the face of the Earth! I wonder, is this because:

1. The deck leaned heavily on a favourable Miracles match and can no longer compete? Or,
2. Loam was primarily played (begrudgingly) by Maverick refugees who are back to Maverick now that they no longer feel beaten into playing CotV?

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Can't remember the last time we had a deck as outside the lines as the deck that got to the finals in modern do something like that at a large event. It has to have been years right?

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Last weekend.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...header-Weekend

First tournament: 72 players. Won by Steel Stompy, which The Source said wasn't a real deck. Second tournament: 86 players. Won by UB Death's Shadow, overcoming Mill in the finals. MILL! Obviously these events don't have the status of the Pro Tour, but they're still very competitive and well-attended.

"Move on from your pet deck"

No, how about you go play standard and be a grinder barnacle turd where you don't get to have a pet-deck and when you play Legacy you just play Ape and Show because it's quick and easy.

What the fuck, do Vintage players say shit like this too or have they worked out that they are FILTHY FUCKING CASUALS? The reason Legacy isn't a 2 deck formats is because almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

To be honest, Vintage is fun but has limited play. As the format grows in Restricted cards the format itself shrinks. There will come a day where the best deck in Vintage is a Highlander deck and when that day comes there will be no answer. That and right now you are stuck playing a known element to do well, even if you can change up how it works some. (Golden Gun Oath for example)

The most healthy format right now is Modern, Legacy is drifting towards the Vintage situation where known elements are really all that is viable. This is not really a point of debate or complaint, it is the outcome of the formats identity. Ban or Legal. New cards that are printed that cause large scale change either have to be accepted and adapted to or Banned. Since that second option is (thankfully) limited we are mostly stuck with the first on all relevant cards. As more and more cards cause change we have more and more streamlined decks that, like Vintage, become the default options. The only difference is we can have them banned outright, ignoring the scarcity that the option is used.

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Originally Posted by Stevestamopz

"Move on from your pet deck"

No, how about you go play standard and be a grinder barnacle turd where you don't get to have a pet-deck and when you play Legacy you just play Ape and Show because it's quick and easy.

What the fuck, do Vintage players say shit like this too or have they worked out that they are FILTHY FUCKING CASUALS? The reason Legacy isn't a 2 deck formats is because almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

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It sounds like you have already accepted that pet decks are shit so why would you get upset when somebody tells you to accept that pet decks are shit? I don't understand the rage. "Move on from your pet deck" doesn't mean "You're only allowed to play UBgr" it means "If you're going to sperg out when you lose with GW KotR or whatever then maybe you should play something else"

@BrainstormApe if you're going to make that argument then what time period is supposed to be 'perfect legacy' where the format is ideal and we can't add any more cards to it? Any date you choose is going to be pretty arbitrary

Are we sure a deck looking to jam a turn 1 thorn should be looked at as innovation? Seems closer to a symptom of a problem.



Also, two things can be true.

True name nemesis not running roughshod over legacy is a testament to the impressive depth and card pool of the format.

True name nemesis is a hideous card design that doesn't belong in legacy.

As much as Tusk Brother Greedy Mike has worked on the steel stomoy deck and did great with it, I don't think it's super innovative. I mean it's legacy shops essentially. Stompy decks have been around forever, this is basically an evolution of what Eldrazi looked like for awhile with thorns and chalice.