Dur, yes. Sorry 'bout that.
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Dur, yes. Sorry 'bout that.
@KillemallCFH
I feel like you’re underrating B2B. Eldariel already made a strong argument for why it’s good, and I’ll try not to reiterate what has already been said. Granted, B2B doesn’t shut off your opponent from doing anything, but it does prevent them from doing a lot of things. Also, your point that B2B can’t take advantage of the tempo generated it generates is only partly true. You’re not going to start smashing them and ending the game after playing it, because that’s not what MUC does, especially where you run 2 win-cons. Instead, while they’re trying to find basics they’re also probably not doing anything relevant. MUC uses that time to load up its hand on counters, play more board control pieces, and eventually drop/steal a beater (I’ve found Morphling to be the best in these situations, but that’s another debate). Here’s when B2B is bad (aside from playing against Mono X deck): when you don’t have board position. B2B is not an answer in this situation and it is akin to drawing a counterspell. I like to run a build of MUC that has a balance of control pieces and answers to threats, whereas your build is basically 100% answers (although shackles is really both). I’m excluding card-draw and counterspells from this comparison because they are common to any control deck. Here’s my current list (I took Jason’s suggestion to my previous post, plus went up to 4 spell snare and dropped a land because I was regularly getting flooded):
23 Island
2 Morphling
3 Sower of Temptation
1 Call the Skybreaker
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Back to Basics
4 Powder Keg
3 Vedalken Shackles
SB: 4 Propaganda
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 BEB/Hydroblast
SB: 2 Jace Berelen (for control matchups) or Annul (I play in a survival heavy meta)
SB: 1 ?? (Formerly 4th Spell Snare, maybe Capsize or 5th Blast?)
Our builds are pretty different, but I don’t think any of the matchups you faced would have been weaker with this build aside from Stax because of my inability to clear the board completely. Also, an early Trinisphere is a real bitch when you play Ancestral Vision; this makes the Dragon Stompy matchup slightly annoying as well.
Now I’m going to make what may be a very stupid suggestion. You mentioned that you considered Needle in the Relic spot; in certain matchups would Needle be worthwhile to shut off fetches if you land a Back to Basics? I know it’s extremely situational and probably a waste of a powerful card, but I figured I’d put it out there just to get a definitive “That is a dumb idea” response if nothing else.
@TheJollyRaja
Your arguments against Shackles can be applied to Propaganda just as easily, if not more easily.
I like 4 Keg as a catch-all for resolved threats that you can’t answer such as Mongoose and Dreadnaught, and it’s also very good at keeping Factories down preventing your opponent from over-extending, which in turn can buy you the time you need to establish control. It also answers EtW tokens nicely, although in your build Propaganda serves that function I suppose.
Lastly, why Threads out of the side instead of Sower? You know the Grips and whatnot are coming in Games 2 and 3 and the Swords/Snuff Outs are going out.
My only thinking is that while GP: Chicago won't be totally scrub-tastic, I'm expecting a lot of Aggro. Ill try out the 4x Powder Keg, since it does help in a lot of instances.
My original idea behind Threads was so that I could steal Goyf's and Naught's more easily (whereas both Shackles and Sower can be Stifled/Trickbinded). Although now that I think about it, if I can't steal a Goyf with 5 power with Shackles, I have much bigger problems. I do like the Sower's in the board, though.
I still don't like not having access to at least 3 Propaganda in the maindeck, but as I said before, maybe I'll feel better about that when I have 4x Powder Keg.
Thanks for yoru thoughts.
I really like your list Misplayer, it's the closest to mine i saw in this thread for now, i run as follow:
23 Island
2 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet
4 Sower of Temptation
4 Powder Keg
3 Vedalken Shackles
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Force Spike
3 Spell Snare
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
// Sideboard //
4 Back to Basics
4 Propaganda
3 Mana Leak
1 Jace Beleren
3 Relic of Progenitus
So, Efreet instead of CtS, Force Spikes instead of BtB (not so many decks with non basics here, it's fine for me on SB), and Brainstorm instead of AV (i really like Brainstom, also without fetches).
I was playing with 4 Propaganda main, and 4 Sower side, but then i realized that the card i was siding out the most was Propaganda, and siding in was Sowers, so i made the change, and it's running fine; Sowers+Shackles are really imba.
23 Islands is perfect imho, with (better) or without Brainstorm; the Leaks are here for decks where Keg or Control Magic cards are useless, and Relics cause THE universal control deck aka MUC needs the best control card against graveyard.decks and every deck that run Goyf or Tombstalker; for me, it's a completion of the deck's strategy.
Samsunait:
Your list looks very solid, just one question. If you where to replace Brainstorm with any card, what would it be? Is it possible to play BtB in any of those slots or thus the deck lack cantrips/card-drawers?
I think brainstorm could go from his list and put Back to Basics instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by elof
4 Fact or Fictions is all you need, really.
Samsunait's list has only twenty-three land...four sowers and brainstorm basically goes against every shred of theory that I have ever learned from playing and reading about Draw-go, which is basically drop a land every turn and do as little during your own turn as possible and if you do anything during your own turn, it better either be extremely cost-effective or be involved with winning the game in a few turns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulles
That obviously has been trimmed-down a bit, but the gyst is there.
The list is basically has all the weaknesses of a stack-based list(aka propagandas, ee's, a small splash in some cases and fetchlands) with none of the strengths(see above brackets).
I like the counters chosen, but seriously: twenty-three lands, four sowers and brainstorms? Give me a break. That is horribad. With how slow sower ends up being in muc(especially with no Kira's to offset this), you might as well run threads or something along those lines because in order to be able to either get sower to resolve or stay around for an untap phase, you are going to need six mana. Sometimes the control deck gets unlucky and you will miss land drops with twenty-five lands in a deck(all islands, no fetches) and that means you will either be getting basically time walked or waiting way too long to snag a creature.
I learned from years of bad luck to always be prepared for the worst, especially with draw-go strategies.
Is maindeck Threads (or SB) all that bad? What typical creatures (Tombstalker I guess) dosn't it steal?
If i would leave Brainstorm, i'll go for 24 lands (23 with Brainstorm is way enough, without you can be in problems like 1 game out of 10; seriously Mordel, i was playing this deck for years with 22 lands with 4 fetches and 4 quicksands, and was going good; 24 or 25 lands with Brainstorm imho is too much, 23 it's okey for me; maybe i'm lucky with lands drop and your unlucky, but soulles and misplayer plays too 23 lands, and without Brainstorm.) and add maybe BtB (but i like it on the sideboard) or well i don't know what; the fact is that Brainstorm is working good for me.
As i said Sowers were on side, and was the card i was siding in the most, so i simply switched it main; maybe 4 is too much, but i need more testing for this. -1 Sower + 1 Island could be a possible fix.
Terravore, Countryside Crusher. Those three are kinda scary, I suppose.Quote:
Originally Posted by elof
I think terravore is dying out with relics growing popularity. If peple do still play it it'll die to relic so no worries there.Quote:
Originally Posted by leander?
I have to agree with Mordel that I find Samsunait's list truly atrocious. A point nobody has made but strikes me as really wrong is playing BS without fetches, cause I just get really big ??? in my eyes when I see that.
True, ture. However, with Terravore growing impopular thanxs to relic, it is only Crusher to worry about and the good thing with him is that if your lucky, you could wank him with Shackels while he's not huge. I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by leander?
I think like 4eak on this pointQuote:
Originally Posted by mackaber
I'm playing Brainstorm in MUC from years way before fetchlands was printed, and as i said, it's doing the job for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4eak
4eak plays fetches. And honestly Brainstorm was never any good without fetches, xcept maybe with Glaciers... . You might as well play opt since it's about on par with Brainstorm in most situations if you have no shuflle effects and when your looking for something digs deeper since it doesn't set you back 2 draw steps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samsunait
Yeah, me too '96 or '97 was when I picked up draw-go. Either way, better stuff has been printed. Also, brainstorming for lands is retarded. From the testing that I have done ancestral visions is an awesome card in conjunction with fact or fiction. Fact or fiction gives you insta gratification later in the game and ancestral gives you cards when you have started to run low.Quote:
I'm playing Brainstorm in MUC from years way before fetchlands was printed, and as i said, it's doing the job for me.
If you want to run brainstorm properly support it with the build or choose a superior card.
Hello every body, I'm new in the forum.
Since some months ago I'm playing MUC but I have realised that this deck needs a support colour to win thresold, dreadstill, etc. My choice has been black, to add Shadowmage Infiltrator and Smother (which can destroy practicaly any creature of the format). In the sideboard I have added Perish against Thresold, one of the most difficult pairings for this deck in my opinion.
This is the list:
// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
16 [10E] Island (3)
3 [7E] Swamp (3)
// Creatures
4 [TSB] Shadowmage Infiltrator
2 [US] Morphling
// Spells
3 [FNM] Force Spike
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [US] Back to Basics
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
2 [GP] Repeal
3 [FNM] Smother
2 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [IA] Counterspell
1 [TE] Capsize
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 3 [TE] Perish
SB: 2 [US] Annul
I have seen that most of you are speaking about the Ancestral Vision. Well, I played it and my opinion is not very good about it. At first, it gets owned by stifle, chalice or countertop and then, it hasn't the advantage of the BS, get 3 cards when you need them and shuffle which you don't need. It's just my opinion, but after trying the Shadowmages with BS and a couple of FoF I think it's enough. (I have repeal which gives card too)
I hope I could add something to the thread. I wait for your answers.
This is the latest MUCart list that I'm running. I was testing out the Scrying Sheet engine and it's amazing in mid-late game. Therefore I'm only running 2 Sheets
Manabase:
1 Academy Ruins
2 Scrying Sheet
21 Snow-Covered Island
Counterspells:
3 Force Spike
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
Artifacts/board control:
4 Vedalken Shackles
3 Nevrinryall's Disk
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Call the Skybreaker
Draw suite:
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Fact of Fiction
2 Gifts Ungiven
Yes, you may be asking why 3FoF and not 4, but let me explain. FoF is the next best draw after Ancestrall Recall, no doubt, but even with Ancestrall Recall, you're just drawing cards, and not knowing what the draws are. My list includes 2 Gifts Ungiven, therefore taking 1 FoF out. I'm arguing that the Gifts is actuall FoF number 4-5, which gives the MUCart list above the win-con and board stabilization.
The idea in the above list is to counter any relevant spells from turn 1-3, then draw go with FoF and Gifts. Gifts allow you to search for the following combination:
1) Disk, Shackles, Sower, Ruins
2) Shackles, Sower, Ruins, FoF
3) Ruins, Shackles, Sower, Call the Skybreaker
The deck doesn't look optimal on paper but in playing it has a very consistent draw engine, and disk answers the board fast. Gifts gives the option to find answers to Tombstalkers, creatures etc with Shackles and Sower. The lone sower is there to faciliate gifts.
On the note with scrying sheets. 4 Scrying sheet is simply BAD. You draw 1-2 early game isn't good at all. You want sheets in the mid late game after hitting 5 lands, and together with Sensei's Top, you get ridiculous draws. SDT is included since there are the few shuffling effects from gifts, and it digs for relevant cards. If it reveals useless cards, just FoF and Thirst away for a new spin with top.
I've been having good successes with the list. It's a pity I can't squeeze BtB/Propaganda. Maybe I'll drop the Thirst count to include 3 BtB main. But there's really no need at the moment in this list since Disk handles the board by itself, before you start dropping 5/5 flying elementas via Gifts ungiven.
I am starting to get into control as opposed to combo (my favorite), or aggro control (it's ok). I have a couple of questions about this deck:
Does running Sheets/Snow justify not running B2B? If you are running only 3 non-basics, and another deck is running all fetches/nonbasics wouldn't b2b still be as good? Also I'm wondering as to the optimal win-con. I personally liked the idea of running Rainbow Efreet. I also am wondering about gilded drake. Does giving your opponent a threat balance out with taking one away?
It seems like everyone is moving Propaganda to the sideboard or cutting it completely!
Every build posted in the past month cut Propaganda's out of the maindeck.
Is this because there's fewer swarm/goblins decks than ever? And now, everyone is playing ~10-12 really large powerful creatures as their only threats instead.
Is Propaganda just not as good a card as it used to be?
I know that online, I do not come across nearly as much in the way of swarm decks that propaganda hinders. If online trends are at all indicative of what is happening at bigger metagames, there is definitely a bit of a shift going on in the way of people moving towards more hybridized strategies that turn creatures sideways. That's just what I have started to observe anyway.