Printable View
You should consider some creature removal, something in the line of snuff out / smother / ghastly demise. I run 3 snuff out and 2 smother main. Also you might want to consider adding a vendilion clique or two, good hand disruption and 3 damage evasion helps since out threat density is so low.Quote:
Originally Posted by royal
100% agreed to TA
I´m having serious problems beating UW-Control (NoGoyf) and Goblins so far. I tested 3 Firespout (and 1 Volcanic Island) out of my sideboard but it didn´t impress me that much. In those both matchups I may not drop the Volcanic too soon since both play Wasteland. So I do depend on Firespout AND the land being in my hand in the very right moment. Additionally, I could not play Verdant Catacombs, which got me hit a lot of opponents with an unexpected Stifle.
How do you guys handle those decks? Right now I´m about to test 3 Pernicious Deed and 2 Darkblast (having some synergy with Tombstalker, too).
I agree with you on firespout I found the same when testing 3 board with a single volcanic. I tried pernicious deed and though it was amazing against stax and enchantress it was too slow against merfolks and goblins, not many eva green run it and they have a more stable manabase and dark ritual. I run 3 ee board and they're great as an answer all, but not a board sweeper since merfolk and gobs creature cmc varies. I'm going to test 3 infest in the board since my weekly tournament is swarming with merfolk.
I just lost 0-2 to Merfolk in a tournament match last night.
I'm running the build with 3x EE...in the SB. 4x Sinkhole, 3x Spell Pierce maindeck without Thoughtseize.
First game I *thought* I had it in the bag. Early mana denial, Sinkholing an island and cleared his Vials. But he comes back with a couple of Lords and I can't stop them fast enough.
Game 2 I side in 3x EE and 2x Grip but his early Relic keeps me off Tombstalker long enough to get there. Didn't have the speed.
The deck is disadvantaged from the start vs. aggro. I might follow the suggestions given and just maindeck the EE's. Without them it becomes very hard to win Game 1.
The matchup vs aether vial decks is kinda bad and if they get aether vial going it's very bad. Having EE main does help against merfolk.
Goblins I have found to not be that tough though, since stifle is really good against them and so is tarmogoyf. I play 3 blue elemental blasts in my board that I bring in against goblins, which helps as well. The version with black is a lot harder to beat because of warren wierding.
Against merfolk your general plan is to keep aether vial and standstill from resolving, drop a guy and remove some of their lords so that they just have a bunch of weak crappy dudes and can't swarm you. Obviously a lot has to go right, but I think the best approach is just having enough spot removal (and countering standstill, which is a real ballbuster). Nitewolf claimed he had success with umezawas jitte postboard but I think you'd have to be boarding into at least 10 creatures for that to be worth it.
Monoblue is pretty straightforward: disrupt them and get a quick beater out and kill them before their powerful but expensive spells get the better of you.
derfern: it definitely seems worth it to maximize your blue fetchlands if you are boarding in a volcanic island. Getting them with a verdant catacomb/stifle is cute and all but being able to cast your spells seems more important.
I don't think inquisition would replace thoughtseize because there are some spells you really want to be able to thoughtseize and I think overall the 2 life is worth it (force, moat, empty, belcher, ad naseum, tendrils, probably some others). But I could maybe see it getting played in addition to thoughtseize. And if your meta is only zoo and none of those decks that use the above cards, then feel free, but in an unknown metagame it doesn't seem worth it to me.
I would say that Goblins is an easier matchup than Merfolk. You're totally right that Stifle (tutor effects) and Goyf counters a lot of their strategy. All I'm saying is that I'm starting to come around to the conclusion that in an aggro meta this isn't the best deck to play. On a personal note, I'm switching back to Eva Green.Quote:
Originally Posted by GtF
Have you guys tested Crop Rotation? Besides finding wasteland, Its a bomb that finds Bojuka Bog (also on color) against anything that like to put stuff in its grave ie. Reanimator, Dredge, Loam, IGG, etc. It can also color fix, respond to an opponents wasteland, and find The Tabernacle at Pendril Vale which is absolutely nuts in a mana denial strategy and it fixes your issues against aggro. I have no idea what you'd cut for it but it looks pretty strong.
thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
Besides a few flexible (meta-)choices I just can´t find space in your basic 60 to support Crop Rotation. It is true that it is a bomb with Tabernacle / Bog, but I would not drop anything for that. Since I´m playing only 18 lands, saccing one to Rotation hurts even more.
@GtF/PlagueSliver
What do you think of Darkblast? On paper it impressed me quite a lot since it is recurring removal and does not cost you life like Snuff Out does. It helps against 1st turn Lackey, against stalling Goyfs and some Merfolk. When played in your Upkeep, Dredge, played again it might kill most lords. I´ll definitely try it, but I´m not sure if it is a slot in my SB or MD. I think we need at least 5 Removal MD. Right now I´m with 3 Snuff Out/2 Smother, but 2 Snuff Out/2 Darkblast/1 Smother might be fine.
Ya, I've tried darkblast and it was pretty good, I could see running 1 or 2 between MD and board. The problem is how to make room for it.
I think I would rather just have the ability to straight up kill a lord against merfolk with something like ghastly demise or smother.
It would be very strong against something that ran dark confidant and goyf, since it kills bob and wins goyf wars, but no decks are really doing that right now. Some are running noble hierarch though, and that card is incredibly good against TA, so I can definitely see it being good there.
Also good vs turn 1 lackeys, though not as versatile as BEB.
It was randomly insane against that UW goyfless deck and monowhite aggro, which are the only matches I actually got to play it in.
Not as good against zoo, in fact it seems basically unplayable there.
I play 2 EE 3 snuff out, I keep thinking about changing 1 of the EEs or snuff outs to something else but I never do it. Darkblast seems like a sideboard card to me.
Plague Sliver - I agree with you about goblins being a better matchup than merfolk and about not playing this in an aggro meta. In a relatively dispersed metagame I like TA more than eva green, but against all aggro decks, eva green is probably better.
Vacrix - crop rotation is not exciting to me. I can usually find a wasteland when I need one, and sacrificing a card to get it doesn't seem worth it. I don't play tabernacle, and I have found tormod's crypt to be sufficient as graveyard hate. Also I don't know where the room would come from.
What does everyone think of possibly playing see beyond? It is kinda annoying that you don't discard the card instead of shuffling it back, but I often find myself flooded in the midgame and 1 or 2 of these seems like it could help a lot to find some action and shuffle away some useless cards. Kinda like a bad brainstorm 5-6.
Why are you guys still running Green? You can play Abyssal Persecutor, Innocent Blood and Cabal Therapy, and not get screwed by Wasteland...
The Gate, with a blue splash!?
I know that was meant to be a joke suggestion, but it actually sounds pretty interesting.
I'm not sure you can compare a 2 CC card to a 4 CC one...
It's very hard for this deck to get 4 lands consistently, and you don't want to tap out to play a threat.
This past Saturday I went to our local Tourney with my lovely pack of hate (aka Team America). We´ve been 32 people and hell, I´m reaaaaally annoyed by my performance...
In the past I´ve tried 2x Pernicious Deed, I´ve tried 3xFirespout out of my sideboard, right now I played 3xDeed in my board AND 2xDarblast main, but
I
just
can´t
beat
fucking
ugly, green
Goblins!!!1111!
I just don´t get it. What else can I do to improve this matchup?! In two weeks there is Bazaar of Moxen and ever since our team decided to go there I´ve been testing TA to be my deck of choice. I´m really annoyed by the deck, our meta and got beaten the shit out over and over and over and over again by this fucked up straight forward dumbass shitload of lackey, bam, fuck you, dead.
Don´t get me wrong, on paper I guess Goblins is about 50/50, but it just seems to be my nemesis. I hate it...
Please help me...
I think you have to realize that your role here is the beatdown. Goblins has so much inevitability on you with its CA chains, and just dumping a swarm of guys, that you must must must get in there quickly or lose. Mono-Red is harder than the splashes, precisely because you can't waste their nonbasics and stifle their fetchlands.
Obviously countering a t1 lackey or vial is clutch. Don't be afraid to to lay tombstalkers and goyfs and start bashing ASAP. Don't forget you can stifle: Matron and Ringleader triggers, pildriver triggers, vial add counter and put into play triggers. Don't use Goyf as a wall- use it as the Abyss but Green. Their only outs to Tombstalker are Stingcourger and their splashes--if they have five goblins to incinerate it, you've already lost. Don't be afraid to tap out to sinkhole--screwing them is a possiblity in land-light builds, and keeping them off of RR is also cool.
I think the best way to beat goblins in this kind of deck is to just play 4 Engineered Plague sb. I've had the same problems with Tempo Faeries which has the same weak MU's(zoo,goblins md) and gave me alot of good results. I must say since I've played E. plague I didn't lose to goblins yet in any tourney(and i've faced it like 5times now..). Sure u can play stuff like firespout,which obviously helps alot,but in a threat like deck as TA,they can just recover too fast. 2x E. plague= GG against goblins since all the lists dont play green.
With the amount of cantrips u play u can get there quite easily. U just need to survive first turns, maybe put some BEB's side if u didnt't alrdy and keep forces/(stifle lackey trigger if needed)- for important stuff. The way i play vs goblins is just try to lock them out of the game,not race/remove creatures,since it wont ever work that well. And i board out dazes,since I want my 3lands asap. Hope this helps,Grtz
Some really good info. I used to play goblins and just a heads up also save stifles for their Wastelands. If they're mono red or with a light splash for the warren weirding then they are probly running the Wasteland/Port Package. Waste their ports, Stifle their Wastelands. One thing is goblins sometimes runs out of gas, so you may want to try the control route and stall their early game, sweep, and then beat them down. I'm still trying to find something effective enough, but Engineered Plague seems acceptable. Is Consume the Meek too slow?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
Also as an aside, i've been looking at playing Team America and read through the forum here so I should be posting more regularly, and apologize if my lack of experience with the deck makes me say something dumb.
One of my Favorite archetypes to play with, ever. That said i wouldn't run this into a random/unknown meta as it has problems with fast agrro. Consume The Meek is way over the curve in TA, even getting to 4 Lands out-after facing and deploying Wastes-while only playing 19-20 lands at most is a task. E. Plague and Early Hymn are pretty good vs Gobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnubbins2t
It'd be easier to tell why you're losing if you described how you're losing. But to just give some feedback, I agree totally with whoever said you must be the beatdown. You can disrupt them but you can't control them, the goblins deck is the one with card advantage, whereas you have tempo. That is why stopping vial and lackey should be your first and second priorities, and landing a tarmogoyf or tombstalker as early as possible is the next most important thing. I think you aren't playing thoughtseize, but I have found it to be very good, usually nabbing warchief or ringleader. Certain cards get really awful (incinerator, piledriver) without a critical mass of goblins out, so the seize is especially helpful there since you can create virtual mulligans for your opponent by taking certain key cards. Eventually they would recover of course, but the idea is that they'll be dead by then.
If you really want to beat goblins for sure 1000 percent, engineered plague would do it. But I haven't found it to be necessary.
Thank you for your feedback so far
The most problems have been with the Rb Goblin list. There are basically too many things that need to be destroyed/countered/handled. Maybe it was just bad luck that day, but when I had a quite good start (handling 1st turn Vial, wasting their land, Snuff Out on 2nd turn lackey) he just drew anything he needed and wasted three of my lands, dropped Lackey and beat the shit out of me. When I had a Goyf he played Weirding which I could not counter.
I tried 2xDarkblast main that day of which I drew not a single one (except against MUC-fail!) and Deed out of the board could never be played due to his wastelands. I´m still not sure what to do with Stifle. In the Rb list I guess I should stifle his fetches when I can handle Vial/Lackey, but then I got overwhelmed by Ringleaders and Matrons.
For Bazaar of Moxen, I guess I´ll play my standard list with a sideboard of
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Ravenous Trap
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Extirpate
1 Krosan Grip
3 Submerge
2 BEB / Hydroblast
1 Darkblast
That should give me a good matchup against this particular deck as well as a few more decks I expect quite a lot (Ichorid, Zoo, Reanimator). Any other suggestions?
Yes, the version with black is much harder to beat because of warren weirding. If they get your one creature it gives them all the tempo back, most of the time you have to counter it to win. I don't really have a good solution except to say try your best to counter it or thoughtseize it. If you aren't playing thoughtseize, that halves your options. You could play spell snare but it is bad against everything else in their deck, and I don't really like it in general against the field.
It doesn't seem like P. deed would be very good against goblins since they have a lot of high casting cost creatures, so you're going to have to spend a lot of mana that you might not have or want otherwise. I wouldn't even bring it in.
Good luck at the tournament!