Just to nitpick, but mana denial does make it harder to cast expensive things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico Suave
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Just to nitpick, but mana denial does make it harder to cast expensive things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico Suave
It is true when the games take just a few turns like merfolks and goblins are trying , CB decks needs more turns to finish off so your opponent will find the 4th and 5th land to cast that bomb.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
I was looking for my game notes and records and I never lose to TempoTrash with SupremeBlue , which seems curious because it has many tempo cards and manabase disruption , also merfolks is 50-50 and goblins 70-30.So I think the real problem is manabase disruption + tons of creatures( uncounterable by CB).Also find in my notes that if I begin with EE for 1 on the play I can win easily.
My impressions/comments:Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew77
1. You run CB with a manabase of 20 lands with 4 Wasteland + 1 Forest + 1 Swamp. This seems to make the "play an early CB" plan (which is good in many MUs) harder to accomplish.
2. By statement (1), it would seem that you'd have a hard time protecting a Sower (since you'll have a hard time landing CB because of your manabase). Playing Wasteland has the potential to further delay the moment you can actually play Sower.
3. If you are so worried about Zoo, why play a 2/1 (Confidant) that has so many ways to die in that MU ?
4. "2 thoughtseize": Isn't the point of playing thoughtseize in such a deck to be able to play it turn 1 (or early game) ?
5. Bob + Thoughseize + your slow clock seem to make the Zoo MU hard game 1.
6. Siding-in 3 pernicious deed, 2 hydroblast, 1 blue elemental blast and 1 threads of disloyalty against Zoo might win you Game 2 because the Zoo player might not anticipate the Deeds. Game3, I think the Zoo player can adapt his SB strategy and have a favorable MU (for example, by siding-in Needles).
7. Your aggro MU (Merfolk + Goblins) seems bad. Particulary Goblins, where Deeds is way too slow (as opposed to just slow vs Merfolk). Why no E. Plagues in the SB in the deed slots ?
8. Thank you for posting your list and good luck with it (no sarcasm here).
lol e. plague sucks a lot.....you need two out against merfollk to even do anything with their lords.Quote:
Originally Posted by aTn
Really crap post here. Please see our site rules and use appropriate capitalization and content when posting in the DTBF. One-liners have to be awesome in this forum; otherwise, it's spam. Thanks - Bardo
Rocket surgery much ? I was trying to remain in Andrew's choice of colors (i.e. UGB) and give constructive criticism.Quote:
Originally Posted by tappedoutcontroldeck
Personally, if I expect a lot of Merfolk (and other Vial aggro decks) I woud probably choose to splash another color (i.e. not black).
IMO P. Deeds is inferior to E. Plague in many MUs.
Do you have any other suggestions (in UGB) ?
P. Deeds is awful (IMO) vs Merfolk lists running Stifle... and Wasteland, which basically means that you'll maybe resolve Deeds, wait for another turn to untap your lands and activate it - one more turn for them to find Stifle or other hate and more importantly, one more submarine attack from their side. Waiting to have sufficient mana to cast + activate in one turn is way too slow IMO (and that's assuming you manage to back your Deeds so that it actually resolves).
Plague has the added bonus of being interesting vs. UWX Landstill, i.e. naming Soldiers to "neutralize" Elpeth + Decree of Justice. Some UWBX Landstill players side-in Plagues in the mirror for that reason...
Plague is also interesting to shut down Empty the Warrens strategies vs. Combo (when you have extra slots after you've sided-in your hate).
Deeds is godawfully slow vs Goblins (as I said before).
Are you suggesting that you board Engineered Plague against the following decks:
Combo
Landstill
Aren't there better cards to board in? For instance Pithing Needle?
I'm playing Black Tempo Threshold, containing 6 black removal (2 Ghastly Demise, 4 Smother) and found out that Engineered Plague was not the way to deal with Merfolk, Goblins etc. I also found out that, when playing Dark Confidant, these matchups aren't that horrible. They actually showed out to be positive (pre-board). Pretty remarkable. I think the same goes for the UGb Countertop lists. What I did to compensate the agro decks was by just putting in another 2 removal in my sideboard, that's all. You can argue about playing Engineered Plague in Countertop, but I think there are better options.
Andrew, about your list. Maelstrom pulse is pretty bad. You might say, why? Well, there are several reasons.
Maelstrom pulse does nothing when there is a goyf-standstill. It's a sorcery and cost 3 mana (off-colour). There are some reasons to play it, like being able to hit artifact's and enchantment's but do you really need that? I mean you play Dark Confidant....
I would also advise you to NOT play Thoughtseize. I think there are far better options. One of them is Vendillion Clique.
Combo, example belcher, you could bring in plague and name "goblin" and against landstill "soldier". Yes, there could be better cards in sideboard but those make sense if you have too much death cards maindecked against combo. About that maestrom pulse, i could tell you that will make something against countertop decks. Depending list you will not always hit 3cc to counter pulse with counterbalance. That is such of versalite card that i can't doo much than wonder you comment. Against fish, "lord of atlantis" or other lord. They tend to play as many they cant and you can do 1-for-2 or even 1-for-3 trades with pulse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenarius
If you're playing against Zoo you can even board a Plague or two naming Cat (lol) to hit Steppe Lynx and make Qasali Pridemage weaker or if you have seen Hellspark Elemental name Elemenal because this guy usually forces you to play overly defensive in the mid- to lategame.
Engineered Plagues are much more versatile than people believe and are rarely expected outside the Tribal/Dregde matchups.
This was what i meant. They work also against dredge, there are plenty of targets. And burn (name elemental or wizard if you saw grim lavamancers). Have players who play wall of roots been satisfied? Or do you still prefer Noble hierarch over that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shugyosha
The point is Plague isnt effective enough, sure you can board it every third matchup but its sad for the cards being boardet out :D
1. You should not worry about Zoo. Your sideboard cards are way better than Plague, Umezawa's Jitte for instance. Although I wouldn't recommend Umezawa's Jitte in a 4 goyf, 4 bob, 3 sower list.
2. Ichorid, true. But you're playing black, so you have other/better options to deal with Ichorid.
3. Belcher, don't you play you can actually board in here? Like Pithing Needle/spell pierce and stuff?
I mean Engineered Plague is nice in theory, but it doesn't let you win all the time. Let me give an example: Elves will be played more frequent thanks to the Multikicker elf (atleast I suspect this to happen). Our team made a list with 15!!! Lords, Engineered Plague can't do anything about that, trust me. Merfolk plays 11 or 12 lords, Goblins can win even if ringleaders, warchiefs etc. are 1/1.
Conclusion: I think there are better options.
There are two ways mana denial will make expensive things not work:Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
1) You happen to mana screw your opponent. If they are ramping to a 4 mana spell, and the mana denial leaves them with only 3 mana, they won't cast it. For this reason alone a card like Wasteland will always be playable.
or
2) Your deck is fast enough to kill the opponent before they can get to 4 mana, even if they have the 4th mana. You can use a card like Wasteland as a Time Walk and kill your opponent "the turn before they would have won."
The problem with Stifle/Wasteland is that a Counterbalance shell is on average too slow to take advantage of #2. Furthermore, by being slower, it also gives the opponent more time to topdeck the mana they need and make the first option less attractive too.
Like I said before Stifle and Wasteland are perfectly fine and playable cards. The problem is their synergy with the rest of the deck is lackluster and quite frankly there are better options available.
Yeah, I wasn't saying "you should affirmatively play Stifle/Wasteland in Counterbalance decks because of teh synergiez"; I was, as I said, nitpicking.
Answer: No.Quote:
Are you suggesting that you board Engineered Plague against the following decks:
Combo
Landstill
I'm saying that it may be sided-in if there are dead cards that remain in the deck after SB-ing relevant cards; that is all I'm saying.
I am not arguing that.Quote:
You can argue about playing Engineered Plague in Countertop, but I think there are better options.
I'm arguing that Plague > Deeds in the BUG-CB-Top list that Andrew posted, that is all I'm saying.
Agreed - I think the whole debate started when someone took a quote out of context, kind of like the following John Travolta pic:Quote:
Conclusion: I think there are better options.
http://prettyboring.com/files/images...dy.preview.jpg
Seriously, what is up with that non-hair + goatee + "I think I smelled my own fart" look/lips ?
Is Zoo present in your meta ?Quote:
I'm playing Black Tempo Threshold, containing 6 black removal (2 Ghastly Demise, 4 Smother) and found out that Engineered Plague was not the way to deal with Merfolk, Goblins etc. I also found out that, when playing Dark Confidant, these matchups aren't that horrible.
If the answer is yes, then how is Confidant in that MU ?
IMO, Clique and Thoughtseize serve different functions and the choice to play either depends on the meta.Quote:
I would also advise you to NOT play Thoughtseize. I think there are far better options. One of them is Vendillion Clique.
Anyhow, I go back to my original question: why would one play BUG-CB-Top in the current meta ?
Hello guys!
I just found this forum and I've read all the pages, pheew. I just want to say that I think there is no "perfect" deck. A setup of cards might fit your playstyle, your metagame etc better that anything else. When I build my decks I start from scratch, try every card available, theorize, bounce ideas with people and keep my 75 flowing for quite some time. Im never completely done but when I feel any change will make the deck worse I settle for what I have. With that in mind I tend not to go "fancy" with combos (Hierarch, NO, Progenitus), wacky manabases overloaded with manlands (I've tried red, white 3,4,5 Color in each setup), dead draws or cards that are great when curving out, on the play (tempocards like stifle). For me it's consistency over power anytime... This is obviously not allways right and I hope some of you can convince me of the opposite.
Here's my list;
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Snare
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Counterbalance
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Trinket Mage
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of will
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
Sideboard
3 Submerge
4 Red elemental blast (or 2/2 hydroblast :o)
1 Tormod's crypt
3 Leyline of the void
2 Krosan grip
2 duress
It's very complex to explain why I run exactly these cards, but Im positive that atleast for me (with the knowledge I have right now), there's no better setup of cards. Those of you (hopefully most!) who don't share my list please start ranting! Hopefully I / you get another perspective and I gladly improve my list!
Hopefully I don't sound too arrogant =O
Hilarious reply, TBH!
Zoo is not present in our metagame. Last sunday I visited a tournament in my city and the metagame was:
Counterbalance: 6
Goblins: 6
(DD)ANT: 6
Merfolk: 6
Eva Green: 4
Landstill: 4
Bant Aggro: 4
Aggro Loam: 4
Rock: 4
(Domain) Zoo: 3
I have no idea whether Dark Confidant is good in the Zoo matchup. I think I'll board them out for more removal, since I have 3 Submerge and 1 Smother, 1 Ghastly Demise in my sideboard.
About Countertop:
I advise not to play Black. Why? It's simple:
Rhox War Monk (retarded in the metagame)
Qasali Pridemage
Elspeth, Knight Errant (This card is da bomb)
and to a lesser extent Swords to Plowshares. Black removal became nearly as good as Swords to plowshares, but will never reach the power of Swords to Plowshares in reality.
Dark Confidant is not good anymore in Countertop, because the metagame is swarmed with Agro decks. It used to be good (I played 4c Threshold w/ red for a fairly long time). But, nowadays the metagame is just too fast. UGb Tempo Threshold (my list) can play Dark Confidant, because it cán counter (nearly) everything and keeps pressure on your opponent at the same time. Countertop can't do the last part and sometimes can't do the first part, aswell.
I would advise people to play Elspeth, Knight Errant atleast 3x. The card is better than NO/Prog, since it's less vulnerable. A list like this looks pretty strong:
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
8 duals
8 fetch
1 island
1 plains
1 forest
+ 1 random slot (rhox war monk, elspeth, pridemage or Sensei's Divining Top are options to consider)
Sideboard
3 Back to Basics
Xx Umezawa's Jitte
Xx Hydroblast
Xx Path to Exile
Xx Relic of Progenitus
Xx Krosan Grip
Personally, I've come to dislike this thread more and more, due to the fact that lists being posted are all over the place. Most of which, completely disregard what has been said before hand. If significant change is being made to a successful archetype, such as this one, at least make sure that there is proper explanation of card choice.
It would really help to have a sub-thread for the discussion of individual splashes. Kinda like we did in the past with the old threshold treads. It would help organize ideas, focus (for once) and let us finally make progress.
I had something like this in mind:
[DTB] CounterTop
UGWR (Supreme Blue & Supreme NO Blue)
UGW (Bant NO)
etc...
I agree. There are at least like 3 different ways this deck can go; talking about 10-15 different cards entirely. Not to mention just the subtle changes like Natural Order or Elspeth.
I wouldn't call the NO package "subtle". It fundamentally changes how the deck is played.
I totally agree with you. I'm just saying, some lists will just lose Natural Order and change only 4 cards...where some lists change 15.
4 compared to 15 is subtle in the way I'm trying to compare here.
I don't know who it is up to when it comes to splitting threads, but it would really be beneficial here.