All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Tammit67

You don't see how making storm combo unplayable and removing the best answer to the 2 card combo decks would change the face of legacy?

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Not really.

Storm is already an underplayed deck. And it can easily kill you by turn 2/3 without LED. Without fow in 80% of the decks it would have an easier time going off. Removing LED doesnt make it unplayable it would just slow it down and force him to adapt the builds. Many ichorid players gave up the speedy LED version for a more consistant LEDless. LED is the card that allow for turn 1/2 wins in legacy.

Every 2 card combo decks play fow on their own. + those deck are slower and there is a lot of hate you can throw at them; there is a lot of great counters/discard at 1 or 2 mana you know.

I know the history behind Memory Jar but with current Legacy pool, can anyone make an EDUCATED reasoning on why should the Jar be banned. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

I know the history behind Memory Jar but with current Legacy pool, can anyone make an EDUCATED reasoning on why should the Jar be banned. Thanks.

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Goblin Welder

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

I know the history behind Memory Jar but with current Legacy pool, can anyone make an EDUCATED reasoning on why should the Jar be banned. Thanks.

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Show and tell i guess it's a pretty big reason.

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

I know the history behind Memory Jar but with current Legacy pool, can anyone make an EDUCATED reasoning on why should the Jar be banned. Thanks.

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There is no reason. People just freak the fuck out whenever anyone suggests unbanning a card that might be good in combo decks (ZOMG). The card is inferior to both Ad Nauseam and Time Spiral.

Flames removed. -zilla

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

I know the history behind Memory Jar but with current Legacy pool, can anyone make an EDUCATED reasoning on why should the Jar be banned. Thanks.

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Could be scary with Welder and Metalworker. By scary I mean insane.

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Originally Posted by Fsk

Not really.

Storm is already an underplayed deck. And it can easily kill you by turn 2/3 without LED. Without fow in 80% of the decks it would have an easier time going off. Removing LED doesnt make it unplayable it would just slow it down and force him to adapt the builds. Many ichorid players gave up the speedy LED version for a more consistant LEDless. LED is the card that allow for turn 1/2 wins in legacy.

Every 2 card combo decks play fow on their own. + those deck are slower and there is a lot of hate you can throw at them; there is a lot of great counters/discard at 1 or 2 mana you know.

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You would effectively make Infernal tutor useless outside of UB AnT, where they can actually empty their hand, but even then Ad Nausem is much worse. Even IGG takes a huge hit, so no, Storm would not be playable without LED. It really is the cornerstone for the bombs in the deck.

Without having to play FoW the 2 card combo decks can instead play misdirection for all it matters, let alone the discard, it just doesn't matter unless you have answers tailored to the matchup. There might be hate you can throw at them, but force you can throw at ALL OF THEM. I think you'd find the format turn into old extended where there was a combo du jour until it was hated out, giving rise to something else to get hated out and so on. I don't want to play that format.

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Originally Posted by DrJones

Goblin Welder

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Show and tell i guess it's a pretty big reason.

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

Could be scary with Welder and Metalworker. By scary I mean insane.

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That's what I though too, Urza pieces such as Welder and Metalworker. I didn't even think of Show and Tell. I guess that article is wrong.

It would be awesome though if they unbanned it to help my Welder MUD deck.

Memory Jar seems better than Ad Nauseam by dint of the fact that it lets you play Force while drawing a bunch of cards, and doesn't require the manabase/setup of Time Spiral.

Not to say that it's necessarily going to break the format, but I feel like we're already pushing the edge of what we can get away with in terms of having stupid combo decks, and I don't think the boat needs more rocking.

You also gain consistency from the fact that you get to run four Jar but rarely want more than one or at best two Ad Nauseams. I also have to agree with IBA that we don't really need more extremely powerful combo-decks as the format stands right now. There is a ton of choice for combo-players already.

@Mon: I feel that way about a lot of the cards on the B/R list. I'd rather err on the side of caution rather than risk making certain strategies ridiculous. I wish they would start getting the chaff off the list 1 card at a time (perhaps 2 if they can't fit in the same deck so you can better gauge their power levels, over 9000 etc.) every announcement. Then they could get to cards that are borderline or that haven't seen the light of day in awhile, like Memory Jar.

I'll stay of the same opinion that some cards are better off left on the list not due to power reasons, but due to the Tarmogoyf syndrome. That is, if you let them enter the format, they would limit deck building quite a bit. Hermit Druid is probably the poster child of this.

Most people will agree that Hermit Druid isn't exactly hard to stop. Lightning Bolt, Swords, Crypt, Relic, Force, Spell Snare, and ten million other things can stop the old Hermit Druid Combo dead in it's tracks, but do you like the idea that you absolutely just have to build every deck with 8 answers to it. Your dead if you can't answer it first turn. It's worse than letting a Goblin Lacky hit you. At least in Lacky's case you don't auto lose on the spot if one hits you. I don't want to be forced to have a first turn answer to one single stupid combo. There will always be first turn kill decks, we really don't need to let a card that will serve no other purpose than be yet another 2nd turn kill deck back in. Argue all you like, that's it's only real use.

As much as people want to argue the point, Earthcraft is in the same boat. Not every deck can deal with a million squirrel tokens that early. Sure, enchantress would love to have that card back and it's far from broken, but it still serves to kill several decks that plain can't deal with that stupid combo. It's an excuse to limit the format and I personally like the variety we have as is. Letting it back in is like saying "Here's a combo based on enchantments, you may no longer play mono-black or mono-red ever again unless you can kill turn 3". Earthcraft isn't broken and when it went on the list a long time ago, I was actually quite surprised by it. I was also glad since the squirrel thing was really easy to do consistently turn 3 and it's annoying to never be able to play aggro without a ton of enchantment removal main due to it. People just counter with something like "but there's pithing needle". Yeah, that's like saying Ancestral Recall is fine because there's Mental Misstep. There's still a line to walk.

So, when will we find out the announcement? Midnight?

EDIT: ...Anyone?

Wish I knew... I'm holding my breath and it's 12:01 EST. Prolly around 10:30am or noon on the 20th. I can't imagine they have people waiting at the office until midnight to post the list.

Then again, I have absolutely no idea about these matters!

Linky

No changes for Legacy. Stoneforge Mystic and Jace 2.0 get sacked in standard.

Edit: "Exception: The deck list for the "War of Attrition" Event Deck will be legal in Standard if kept completely intact. That deck, which went on sale on June 10, contains two copies of Stoneforge Mystic."

Jace and SFM get the axe in Standard. No Legacy changes.

They could've kept Jace and axed SFM, and things would've been fine; definite knee-jerk reaction. C'est la vie.

The discussion of today's announced changes can be found here.

-4eak

HARHARHAR seriously i laughed my ass out! I was expecting it from the beginning at least for Jace and way too many didn't even see it coming and kept buying this crap like there was no tomorrow! I am so pleased that they got what they deserved for driving its price sky high. Serves them right i guess. For how long would wizards continue their mistake of printing this card in standard... hehehehe half its price in just a day ZOMG!

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Originally Posted by MirrorMask

HARHARHAR seriously i laughed my ass out! I was expecting it from the beginning at least for Jace and way too many didn't even see it coming and kept buying this crap like there was no tomorrow! I am so pleased that they got what they deserved for driving its price sky high. Serves them right i guess. For how long would wizards continue their mistake of printing this card in standard... hehehehe half its price in just a day ZOMG!

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Laughing at other people's misfortune seems like so much fun until you realize that it was extremely difficult to actually win in standard without 4 Jace and 4 Mystic in your deck. Otherwise, thank you for adding such an insightful, valuable, and intelligent post to this discussion.