Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by rxavage

Thanks. Personal tutor won't be replacing Shackles. I'd love to be able to fit a ponder or 2 but I really like where I'm sitting, I just hope I don't get any unintentional draws.

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Jace, EtA, SCM, EE and Shackles are all rather mana hungry spells. I'd really recommend going up to 23 land if you're rocking the list w/o Ponders.
Remember - there are quite a few Wasteland.decs out there.

Also, one of those P. Deltas should definitely be a Marsh Flats, no?

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Originally Posted by klaus

Jace, EtA, SCM, EE and Shackles are all rather mana hungry spells. I'd really recommend going up to 23 land if you're rocking the list w/o Ponders.
Remember - there are quite a few Wasteland.decs out there.

Also, one of those P. Deltas should definitely be a Marsh Flats, no?

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My 23rd land would be a Marsh Flat if anything. I haven't had any issues with 22 yet, but if I do I what I cut will be determined after I have fully determined Shackles value.

22 Lands has been working perfectly for me. SDT x4 + Scroll Rack x1 in my main allow me to see enough cards that mana is rarely an issue and I run Scroll Rack over Ponder simply because even though it is one more mana it is reusable each turn to set up Miracles and what not.

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Originally Posted by Areys

22 Lands has been working perfectly for me. SDT x4 + Scroll Rack x1 in my main allow me to see enough cards that mana is rarely an issue and I run Scroll Rack over Ponder simply because even though it is one more mana it is reusable each turn to set up Miracles and what not.

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I've been debating on trying out Scroll Rack but it may lead me to playing Land Tax and that's probably not a good idea. For some reason Entreat the Angels seems to elude me in most of my games and Jace has to do all the work, a 3rd EtA may be necessary. In any case more testing is required.

Thanks max for the awesome list. Why do you wanna play esper miracle instead of the traditional UW miracle? Just for thoughtseize? Perhaps Inquisition can do the job as well against storm, minus the life loss.

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Originally Posted by mike1987

Thanks max for the awesome list. Why do you wanna play esper miracle instead of the traditional UW miracle? Just for thoughtseize? Perhaps Inquisition can do the job as well against storm, minus the life loss.

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IoK doesn't cut it, the loss of life from Thoughtseize is not an issue, and storm isn't a concern of mine. I also run engineered explosives and Surgical out of the board. If everyone just played what everyone else did then it would be a pretty lame format. Testing and tweaking is the only way to consistent success and I like finding what works best for me.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

I can almost assure you running Intuition is way better than cunning wish. It takes up very little deck space...Basically a couple green mana sources, life from the loam, engineered explosives (which many lists already run at least one), and an Academy Ruins (which again, many lists are starting to pick up). Now that pile really crushes the mirror. Loam has insane synergy with top, letting you fetch and drege 3 every turn, letting you see 6 cards. Additionally, you can get more creative based on targets. I think at least 2 maze of ith are quite good too, because it makes Intuition way stronger in the creature matchups, but more importantly Maze is a great answer to a Batterskull and can power up Terminus by forcing your opponent to have 2+ creatures to damage you. Don't forget that you can just use it to tutor for a swords to plowshares, top, counterbalance (post board), force of will, or usually whatever you need. Intuition has a lot more power and saves board room compared to cunning wish, in my opinion. I'm working on putting a list together which uses intuition and is concerned a little more about board control than average lists and have been pretty satisfied so far.

Also, I agree on 4 Jaces. That guy is just too good. 4 makes it easier to pitch to force, have him countered, or answer an opposing Jace. Besides the situation where you're stuck with two Jaces in hand without the mana to play him, if you can land one you can always use his brainstorm effect to get rid of the other. I would not run less than 4 right now.

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I've really thoutgh about a desing with Intuition and it really seems to be quite interesting the approach will be quite similar to the ITF deck build D.Gearheart,
it will be 2 intuition 1 loam 1 E.E 1 A.Ruins 1 Vedalken 1 wasteland.

What happens is that theyre a lot of slots that you need, if you fill with Cunning there will be only 2/3 slots.
With B2B there is only 2 slots (B2B and E.Tutor)
I dont think the Maze of ith really shines in this deck, maybe it can with loam-intuition as a 1 of.

I am trying out one MB EE. At times it's really good, other times when you have the countertop in play, blowing it for 2 seems counterintuitive. Will be testing out vindicate instead.

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Originally Posted by mike1987

I am trying out one MB EE. At times it's really good, other times when you have the countertop in play, blowing it for 2 seems counterintuitive. Will be testing out vindicate instead.

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I originally had Vindicate replace O-ring but then just removed it all together, it would be nice to have one every once in a while but I don't have room at the moment.

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Originally Posted by mike1987

I am trying out one MB EE. At times it's really good, other times when you have the countertop in play, blowing it for 2 seems counterintuitive. Will be testing out vindicate instead.

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EE is good because it can x for 1 all the time. It also kills nimble mongoose. I'm not certain how vindicate will compare. Personally, I've been running two EE main deck for a few weeks now, and its fantastic. I'm using a red splash for REB out of the board. Not sure how that compares to the black splash.

I've done additional testing with the list posted earlier, and I really like it so far:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance

3 Snapcaster Mage

2 Entreat the Angels
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top



Sideboard:
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Peacekeeper
2 Disenchant
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Humility
1 Terminus



Yes, its 61 cards, but only due to the fact, that I added Academy ruins to the manabase. Its neither blue nor white, so I couldnt cut a land for it,but I didnt want to cut a spell for it too, so I decided to make it the 61st card, which helps the fact that I couldnt land enough lands all the time.

The list feels pretty smooth and was built for an rather developed meta. It can handle all the Top.Decks pretty easy, just having problems with SneakAttack, but if you ask me -the hype died, and there's no need to panic anymore.

Yes, I cut the Cliques. They are just bad most the time.

I chose the 4th Jace as an extra-miracle-enabler, as an Fog+Brainstorm and as an additional Win-condition. All things the deck could need some more numbers of.

Any criticism? I am open for everything, but the fact that Cliques arent coming back into the maindeck!

Greetings

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Originally Posted by Philipp802

Any criticism? I am open for everything, but the fact that Cliques arent coming back into the maindeck!

Greetings

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I have considered the red slash myself, might try it if merfolk becomes an issue.


BTW, sorry for "misquoting" you.

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Originally Posted by mike1987

I am trying out one MB EE. At times it's really good, other times when you have the countertop in play, blowing it for 2 seems counterintuitive. Will be testing out vindicate instead.

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I think EE fills a much bigger hole than Vindicate can. Sometimes Explosives is just an expensive 1 for 1, but being non-targeted, and sweeping has a good amount of application in the format. Most of the 2ccs in the format are susceptible to Swords to Plowshares - Goyf, Bob, Thalia, Pridemage, Ooze, etc - so the cases where one has to EE here losing value should be fairly infrequent.

One match where EE @ 2 is bonkers is the Merfolk match up where an EE @ 2 will frequently generate a 3 for 1.

EE provides outs to Nimble Mongoose, active Mother of Runes, in the decks these are most prevalent in there are other 1ccs that can potentially be collateral damage. EE also pads the combo matches hitting Bridge from Below's Zombies, and Empty the Warrens' Goblins. It can also dig the deck out of some weird situations against more fringe decks like MUD or Enchantress - sweeping some Chalices and Moxen or knocking out Argothians and Sterling Grove. It also provides some further insurance against Entreat Angels in the mirror.

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Originally Posted by Philipp802

list

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My 75 only differ by 4 subtle choices.
4 Jaces seem legit in a control-heavy meta otherwise 3 is the way to go imo. Then again Clique might be superior to Jace #4.
The SB EE and Humility might be better off as Guilded Drakes (shine against S&T and Reanimator) and the 4th REB could also be overkill - you wouldn't board the full playset against RUG/Dredge/U.combo for instance. Merfolk, Mirror and rare stuff like Solidarity are the only MUs I'd use the full playset against. Pretty sure 3 is the perfect number. Plus you'd find room for a PtE, which will be more valuable in open metas.

With 9 xUU spells in the 3-color MD the Tundra #4 over Plains #2 could be the correct call - that's a meta call though (tons of non-basic hate => Plains>Tundra)

Edit: +1 on fromCairos post.

I'm seeing alot of lists that are still packing CB-Top despite having less than 8 spells of 2cc, and less than 4 spells of 3cc (mainly being replaced with EE, Jace, Terminus, ect.). Just wondering if you're finding the soft lock to still be valuable when it can only reliably hit cc 1 and 0?

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Originally Posted by Mono_Thematic

I'm seeing alot of lists that are still packing CB-Top despite having less than 8 spells of 2cc, and less than 4 spells of 3cc (mainly being replaced with EE, Jace, Terminus, ect.). Just wondering if you're finding the soft lock to still be valuable when it can only reliably hit cc 1 and 0?

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For me the CB-Lock is no lock. Its a card-advantage machine against the most decks. The goal is to hit CC1. Always. With Top you can hit CC2 too and if youre lucky CC3 but thats not the goal. The goal is to hit CC1 - which is most important if you ask me.

Greetings

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Originally Posted by Pelikanudo

I've really thoutgh about a desing with Intuition and it really seems to be quite interesting the approach will be quite similar to the ITF deck build D.Gearheart,
it will be 2 intuition 1 loam 1 E.E 1 A.Ruins 1 Vedalken 1 wasteland.

What happens is that theyre a lot of slots that you need, if you fill with Cunning there will be only 2/3 slots.
With B2B there is only 2 slots (B2B and E.Tutor)
I dont think the Maze of ith really shines in this deck, maybe it can with loam-intuition as a 1 of.

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I have played with Intuition quite a bit in both dedicated control and aggro control, and have always found it to be great. It has a ton of power by letting you get something from your deck in a pinch, or to setup a super value machine with some loam pile. The only downside is splashing colors for loam and engineered explosives, but loam is pretty insane in the deck anyway, and I would probably want to run it anyway. The main things Intuition will probably do are.

I think you underestimate Maze of Ith a lot. It's one of the few ways the deck has to deal with a resolved Batterskull. Otherwise I find that card extremely hard to deal with. Additionally, it can force your opponent to extend into the mass removal of Terminus. Wasteland is an issue, but usually I find having the Mazes actually lets you dictate to your opponent what they wasteland. If you play out lands early you can protect Maze from being removed, or you can play out maze early so that you can build up the mana to play your higher cost spells. Plus, if you ever find Loam you can counter act any land destruction they've done to you.

I support Intuition by running the following:

2 Intuition
2 Maze of Ith
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Academy Ruins
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ensnaring Bridge
Manabase including 2 Tropical Islands and 1 Volcanic Island for loam and EE @ 4.

Yes this takes a decent amount of deck space, so to fit these cards in I opt out of the utility creature plan (Snapcasters and Cliques). I find this to be an acceptable trade, since all of the cards mentioned are very strong, and Intuition itself has a ton of power. Below are what I'd say the main uses of Intuition are, so that we can gain a sense of the power and options Intuition can bring:

1) Tutor for 3x Top or 3x Counterbalance. This lets you assemble countertop more reliably, which can just win the RUG and combo matchups alone.

2) Setup Ruins/Loam/EE. This takes more time and mana, but can be a soft lock very quickly. Many decks have trouble dealing with this game 1.

3) Get Loam/Maze/Maze. This is for the faster creature decks when you just need answers to creatures right away. Assuming you have green open, you can cast this EOT on turn 3, loam turn 4 for your two mazes and play one immediately. This pile helps alleviate slowness of the Intuition against aggro. Also useful to get Maze against a Batterskull.

4) Or, if you have a bit more time to setup go for Ruins/Loam/Ensnaring Bridge. At first glance Bridge seems to work poorly with Loam, which it does to an extent, but the fact is that Ensnaring Bridge can just steal a lot of games. Somewhat similar to how Shackles can just steal games (no pun intended), although I like Bridge's worth against decks like Reanimator or Sneak and Show better.

5) Intuition for 3x Jace. I don't like this plan much, since you lose Jaces from your deck, but sometimes you just really need to get a win-con to close a game out.

6) Intuition for 3x Force of Will. This lets Intuition turn into an awkward 3 mana Force of Will, but this is relevant sometimes.

7) Intuition for 3x Terminus. Only useful if you have a brainstorm effect in hand, but I have done this against Creature decks to wipe the board.

8) Intuition for 3x Swords, because sometimes you just have to answer a single creature.

I'm still working on tuning my list, but have never been disappointed with Intuition in this or other decks I've played it in.

I'm going to go with straight UW or a slight red splash. Went 1-2 drop with the esper build which is not good when combo disappears and every comes out of the woodwork with merfolk.

You said it was 61 cards? Unless I miscounted three times, it's 60 cards? 22 lands, 38 spells.

Hello Guys, Im an new player with the deck and need some help to know whats are the bests options to run against Show and tell decks?

Im using in SB:
1 O-ring
1 Humility
2 spell pierce

And in MD:
1 O-ring
1 Karakas


Its enough? Show i keep Terminus post board? And Jace?

thanks