Gatecrash Spoilers

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Originally Posted by Roman Candle

Yeah, MaRo wrote in an article that he didn't even want them in Return to Ravnica because he didn't think it could make sense in the color pie for the five spells until someone pointed out that uncounted ability is a green and red ability that was tertiary in blue -- which fit all five guilds in RtR. Since Orzhov isn't any of those three colors, and since it would be tertiary again on Dimir, they couldn't use it for Gatecrash.

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So half the guilds get shat on, including the fucking Red/Green and Blue/Green ones, just because Orzhov is in this set? That makes no sense at all.

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Originally Posted by Roman Candle

Yeah, MaRo wrote in an article that he didn't even want them in Return to Ravnica because he didn't think it could make sense in the color pie for the five spells until someone pointed out that uncounted ability is a green and red ability that was tertiary in blue -- which fit all five guilds in RtR. Since Orzhov isn't any of those three colors, and since it would be tertiary again on Dimir, they couldn't use it for Gatecrash.

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That sounds to me like a stupid reason. If I make a cycle I make it a complete cycle, and don't stop because of some far fetched color pie reason. The five Gatecrash guilds haven't got anything that compares to the uncounterable cycle.

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Originally Posted by Barook

Out of all things, Extort and not Cipher? Really? :eyebrow:

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Keep in mind that only so many effects make sense with Cipher. Combat tricks don't, for example, since the cipher cast will always be too late to matter. Other effects, particularly destruction effects, can be too oppressive when repeatable.

Extort can just be slapped on anything, though.

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Originally Posted by joven

That sounds to me like a stupid reason. If I make a cycle I make it a complete cycle, and don't stop because of some far fetched color pie reason. The five Gatecrash guilds haven't got anything that compares to the uncounterable cycle.

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In fairness, you can't Counterspell a Bloodrushed card. :(

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Keep in mind that only so many effects make sense with Cipher. Combat tricks don't, for example, since the cipher cast will always be too late to matter. Other effects, particularly destruction effects, can be too oppressive when repeatable.

Extort can just be slapped on anything, though.

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In fact, Extort actually looks quite good along side something like Gravecrawler that can be recast several times a turn with a sac outlet.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I knew the uncounterable cycle was not going to be redone, but Im very disappointed by a Hybrid 1 drop cycle not continuing. Most of RTR's were pretty cool in design, at least DRS The Selesnya one and Niv Magus were interesting and unique. I was excited to see what a UB hybrid one drop could be...

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Yeah, this is what bothers me. Hybrid one-drops just seem like such an obvious and iconic sort of cycle that you have to have a really good reason to not include them all the way through. Not like they couldn't have swapped out some uncommons.

To break a branch FOR WotC at this point:

If anybody at WotC development section would notice the critic among all the dumb cheering from their Timmy crowd, they can STILL fix the problems occured by their own inconstistancy by finishing the Hybrid-1cc-rare- and the uncounterable-cycle in the Dragon's Maze expansion and give it a forseeable sales argument.

However, due looking at Avacyn Restored and Rise of the Eldrazi I expect serious shenanigans with every 3rd set like throwing all previous design over board, make shit like simic-dimir-Guildpact (vampiric slime lulz) in Triple-Color-spells within a complete multicolor-Expansion, create 5 new creature-ability-keywords and call it a day!

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Originally Posted by rufus

Pulling 3x Akoum Battlesinger or with some Jwari Shapeshifter/Phantasmal Image will each trigger three times for a total of 30 hasty power. 4x Halimar Excavator would grind for 64 cards. Of course Buried Alive->Immortal Servitude (X=2) costs too much to cast. There's probably a better way to make looting efficiently pay off though.

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Wouldn't Living death be strictly better than Immortal servitude then?

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Originally Posted by kingtk3

Wouldn't Living death be strictly better than Immortal servitude then?

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Not even Modern legal, dood

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Originally Posted by TsumiBand

In fairness, you can't Counterspell a Bloodrushed card. :(

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Stifle should work.

Orzhov sure made extensive use of the Extort design space - oh wait.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

To break a branch FOR WotC at this point:

If anybody at WotC development section would notice the critic among all the dumb cheering from their Timmy crowd, they can STILL fix the problems occured by their own inconstistancy by finishing the Hybrid-1cc-rare- and the uncounterable-cycle in the Dragon's Maze expansion and give it a forseeable sales argument.

However, due looking at Avacyn Restored and Rise of the Eldrazi I expect serious shenanigans with every 3rd set like throwing all previous design over board, make shit like simic-dimir-Guildpact (vampiric slime lulz) in Triple-Color-spells within a complete multicolor-Expansion, create 5 new creature-ability-keywords and call it a day!

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Alara Reborn was received badly, so no more pure multicolored sets.

And I don't expect Dragon's Maze (stupid name btw) to fix anything since it's already finished for a while now.

What I don't get is why they abandoned the both cycles despite having massive troubles during design. Even if it was just "take X, make it multicolored for the same cost and uncouterable", it would have been bearable. Instead, we got overcosted, boring junk.

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Originally Posted by Jamaican Zombie Legend

What's really weird about Gatecrash is the enormous power level disparity between it and Return to Ravnica. While RtR decided to give every guild some highly efficient, powerful rares (Decay, Dreadbore, DRS, Verdict, Detention Sphere, Rakdos' Return, Sphinxes' Revelation, Loxodon Smiter) and tried to push the power level on almost everything Rare/Mythic to at least "borderline playable", Gatecrash is almost the opposite. There isn't a cycle of excellent removal, you see no effects shared by two guild colors pushed to high efficiency, and even the bombs and mono-colored cards are less insane.

Now, to be honest, I don't mind this. I like sets where the good cards are not readily apparent, where sometimes the best things are commons/uncommons that are powerful by being solid role-players. But I think a lot of players, especially casuals, would be terribly unhappy seeing their favorite guild(s) get shafted in the power department. I'm certain a bunch of Orzhov fans were hoping for their version of Dreadbore/Decay/Sphere, and were disappointed to find a Pillory of the Sleepless that costs one more mana and adds an Arrest style clause to the creature lockdown. I bet Purge the Profane is even more a slap in the face. I know Gerrard's Verdict is a very undercosted card, but wouldn't 1WB have been appropriate? Where is something like Mortify, one of many elegant staple cards that helped to define the colors and cement Ravnica in people's minds?

Very disappointed so far with Wizard's handling of this Ravnica block, especially development which seemingly phoned it in hard.

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Seriously. I don't mind the powering down at all, but mid-block was the wrong time to do it, especially in the middle of a block that's divided into 2 sets of 5 color-pair guilds. Did they think people wouldn't notice the assymetry? Really?

I was very much interested in the kind of thing :wb: Orzhov would get to riff on the stuff they did in RTR, especially removal wise. (Given that it's, you know, fuckin' :b::w:, removal is kinda something you would expect).

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Originally Posted by joven

Stifle should work.

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http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ScQAw6Oc2S.../Doc+Brown.jpg

Yeah, I've heard of that guy. You know what I meant :( Shelter counters Abrupt Decay, so whatever.

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Originally Posted by FieryBalrog

I was very much interested in the kind of thing Orzhov would get to riff on the stuff they did in RTR, especially removal wise. (Given that it's, you know, fuckin' , removal is kinda something you would expect).

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Removal has to be shit in an expansion where the spells are aimed at appeasing folks that play battlecruiser Magic, though. Can't have people paying :9::r::r::g: for a game ender just to see it hit the bin for :wb:, am I right? Grisly Spectacle is probably as close as a reasonable removal spell as you'll find for Limited, everything else has caps on its ability to kill stuff (power <= 2, pay X mana for creatures power, lose life equal to toughness, and so on).

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Originally Posted by Barook

And I don't expect Dragon's Maze (stupid name btw) to fix anything since it's already finished for a while now.

What I don't get is why they abandoned the both cycles despite having massive troubles during design. Even if it was just "take X, make it multicolored for the same cost and uncouterable", it would have been bearable. Instead, we got overcosted, boring junk.

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MaRo said that Development was concerned about the number of hybrid one-drops Standard could support. Completing the cycle may have put them at or just over that number, so they opted not to finish it.

So yes, if people want to bitch about the hybrids one-drops not coming back, they can blame knuckle-dragging Standard players.

As for the uncounterable cycle, it was made clear from the beginning that it was an RtR-only cycle aimed at a specific audience.

Mark Rosewater didn't design the uncounterable cycle, it was a late design from one member of the development team that thought legacy needed some uncounterable cards. Probably that development team member didn't work in gatecrash. Even if Mark Rosewater didn't like the idea of an uncounterable cycle, it wouldn't have mattered, because Development trumps over design (which is skewed towards blue, which is why broken cards like Delver of Secrets see print, when it was just a 2/2 for 1U in design).

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Originally Posted by DrJones

Mark Rosewater didn't design the uncounterable cycle, it was a late design from one member of the development team that thought legacy needed some uncounterable cards. Probably that development team member didn't work in gatecrash. Even if Mark Rosewater didn't like the idea of an uncounterable cycle, it wouldn't have mattered, because Development trumps over design (which is skewed towards blue, which is why broken cards like Delver of Secrets see print, when it was just a 2/2 for 1U in design).

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This irritates me no end, because the quality of the counters in Standard are, well, not particularly great. Completing that cycle would have made sense, as well as making sure that it was, y'know, a proper cycle. Hell, I'm still not convinced about the whole deign ethos for RTR block: I'm pretty convinced that the alignments should have been "allied colors" (RtR), "Enemy colors" (Gatecrash) and "Nicol Bolas' Revenge on Ravnica" (Dragon's Maze).

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Originally Posted by DrJones

Mark Rosewater didn't design the uncounterable cycle, it was a late design from one member of the development team that thought legacy needed some uncounterable cards. Probably that development team member didn't work in gatecrash. Even if Mark Rosewater didn't like the idea of an uncounterable cycle, it wouldn't have mattered, because Development trumps over design (which is skewed towards blue, which is why broken cards like Delver of Secrets see print, when it was just a 2/2 for 1U in design).

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I don't follow much of the dev-story when it comes to Magic; this is annoying as hell, if it's true. How often are expansions left to different teams? It seems like a block should be a lot more cohesive than to let too many cooks into the kitchen.

Gah, so now I have all kinds of other dumb questions, like "did they even play the original Ravnica set" and so on, because a lot of the disharmony is just really sort of irritating.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

MaRo said that Development was concerned about the number of hybrid one-drops Standard could support. Completing the cycle may have put them at or just over that number, so they opted not to finish it.

So yes, if people want to bitch about the hybrids one-drops not coming back, they can blame knuckle-dragging Standard players.

As for the uncounterable cycle, it was made clear from the beginning that it was an RtR-only cycle aimed at a specific audience.

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Stupid Standard always getting in the way of good Eternal cards. :mad:

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Originally Posted by Koby

Stupid Standard always getting in the way of good Eternal cards. :mad:

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It's not even stupid Standard fucking with Eternal, though; I don't think Gatecrash adds much to Standard either. Like maybe Boros is a deck in Standard now, but everything else is expensive or limited or so Johnny (Simic) that it will backfire as often as it works. And I don't think any of these new cards change the fact that BG is a motherfucker. Which is fine, there can be a Best Deck in Standard, it happens all the time. Just, like, I dunno, make sure there's some other ones too :/

Unless I am mistaken this is the first time this lead designer has led a set. Forget legacy I have heard just as many standard players complain about the low power level of the set is.