Chinese fakes

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

You are currently one of the main contributors of stupidity at this point. If you would just stop posting, this thread would clean up. Also, Wikipedia is literally the worst online source ever. JuCo professors will trash your English papers for that, for shit's sake.

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I'm glad you are smart enough to know Wikipedia ain't reliable source of information. However it's sad you deny existence of the word ain't. Like... I know... people say it, native speakers, so it doesn't exist and it's not a word. Makes sense, you from 'murica? I'm not even going to waste more time linking you to other websites, I guess you can google it in your free time for yourself.

This thread was tragic even before I started my hate-posts towards your person. I usually don't feel the need to do that, but your elitist and arrogant posts just turned me on. It's the same story all over again for last 30 pages. Geez, we all know you fear for your precious collections. But guess what, nobody cares, go whine on MTGS and leave this post for factual information (good luck finding it now in this mess).

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

The only stupidity is claiming that enjoyable Gaming in your LGS NEEDS high quality fakes which other subjects WILL use to either rip off people (or for cheating if those differ in their thickness)

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Maybe if there were less spam in this thread, this discussion wouldn't have taken place at all. As has been posted many times, the fakes are bad. If you weren't lobotomized recently, you won't buy them while trading in person. No need to panic at all.

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Originally Posted by prateta

Maybe if there were less spam in this thread, this discussion wouldn't have taken place at all. As has been posted many times, the fakes are bad. If you weren't lobotomized recently, you won't buy them while trading in person. No need to panic at all.

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I just don't want to get those fakes into circulation and end up in innocent teenagers hands which would get in Troubles at some point if they play it in tournaments or caught trading fakes, therefore I want to prevent those manufacturers from getting any Financial Motivation to create better fakes

Lol it's not an elitist attitude to buy cards actually made by the company that created the game. I do agree this thread needs locked, if only to stop me from having to read your nonsensical spewings. Also, no one is panicking, but rather vehemently disagreeing with you and your ilk who continually argue against well understood macro-economics principles that printing fakes (even poor quality ones) and distributing them on a global level (which they are) is bad for any product and any legitimate company.

QAPC.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I just don't want to get those fakes into circulation and end up in innocent teenagers hands which would get in Troubles at some point if they play it in tournaments or caught trading fakes, therefore I want to prevent those manufacturers from getting any Financial Motivation to create better fakes

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I understand, but there is nothing you can do about it. The prices are high, the demand is growing and the chinese are unstoppable. Not even Apple and such companies were able to stop them counterfeiting their products, WoTC stands no chance.

The only way to prevent people from buying counterfeits (as soon as they are indistinguishable) is the reprint way. WoTC will have to reprint high dollar cards, or those dollars will go straight to Hong Kong. It's that simple.

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Originally Posted by prateta

I understand, but there is nothing you can do about it. The prices are high, the demand is growing and the chinese are unstoppable. Not even Apple and such companies were able to stop them counterfeiting their products, WoTC stands no chance.

The only way to prevent people from buying counterfeits (as soon as they are indistinguishable) is the reprint way. WoTC will have to reprint high dollar cards, or those dollars will go straight to Hong Kong. It's that simple.

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Here i can fully agree. WotC should move their asses and reprint Legacy staples in Standard legal Sets to finally make the Legacy community buy boosters or create more prepacked products for that crowd. WotC can do a shitload of stuff to make counterfeinting unattractive and creating a holographic Symbol for the upcoming EDH jank is NOT the way to do.

They just can continue the hidden treasures from zendikar

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Here i can fully agree. WotC should move their asses and reprint Legacy staples in Standard legal Sets to finally make the Legacy community buy boosters or create more prepacked products for that crowd. WotC can do a shitload of stuff to make counterfeinting unattractive and creating a holographic Symbol for the upcoming EDH jank is NOT the way to do.

They just can continue the hidden treasures from zendikar

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I was gone when Zendikar hit; did they package the older cards 1 per booster pack? That would be a nice distribution model for the newbies. I can sort of see where Basq is coming from with his position on the proxies: he/she would rather use a fake that's a close enough simulation to the real card than use something printed from magiccardsinfo that would look fake.

The fact is exactly that, though: they ARE fake. If they don't look fake, the term proxy stops and the term counterfeit begins. Jesus.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

They just can continue the hidden treasures from zendikar

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The RL staples were just bought from SCG and other big secondary market retailers, though. They don't bring new cards into circulation with that unless they actually reprint stuff.

Maybe their current sets would be more bearable if they actually contained something of worth.

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Originally Posted by ESG

It matters because you would still be giving counterfeiters your money. Even if you didn't try to unload the cards at some point -- which I highly doubt, given the lack of scruples you've displayed so far -- plenty of other people would. Propping up an industry that creates fake cards is bad for everyone.



Who are you? If it's a casual game, you can make proxies. If it's a non-sanctioned tournament and you all want to use proxies, you can do that. You just can't pass the proxies off as real. What are you failing to understand about that?

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Really personally attacking my character? No, I'm not going to dupe people. That's sleazy. I wouldn't necessarily have to give counterfeiters my money if I bought the cards second hand. And even if I did, big deal, Wal Mart is evil, so is Nike, but millions of people shop at their stores. Are you going to judge them too.

If I pass proxies off as real, provided I'm not selling or trading them, it doesn't matter. It has NOTHING to do with gameplay. This is about being able to have a good paper MTG experience without having to spend thousands of dollars. Don't be petty because I can have just as much fun as you can without spending thousands. And no, playing with crappy unpassable proxies isn't as fun because the paper MTG experience doesn't feel the same. If I thought I'd have as much fun doing that, I wouldn't buy passable proxies in the first place.

I play with proxies off the site I provided on this thread just earlier today and my play experience has never felt less fun because it was printed on regular paper instead of cardstock. Your reasons are what's petty. As for attacking your character, I don't see much there to begin with. This is not about whether you do or don't pass the fakes off as real, it's the fact that you could. You don't want to spend thousands, but some of us have. If you had or do in the future and someone decides to undermine your investment by wanting cheap fakes that threaten your hard work by spreading them worldwide, maybe then you will have the ability to understand what you are currently condoning. Until then, you sir, are 'Murica. Whining about not having things you want instantly and at your prices. Save some money. Buy things you want, but earn them. You will take better care of them and have higher self-respect, and possibly be more respected by others in the magic community.

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

Really personally attacking my character? No, I'm not going to dupe people. That's sleazy. I wouldn't necessarily have to give counterfeiters my money if I bought the cards second hand. And even if I did, big deal, Wal Mart is evil, so is Nike, but millions of people shop at their stores. Are you going to judge them too.

If I pass proxies off as real, provided I'm not selling or trading them, it doesn't matter. It has NOTHING to do with gameplay. This is about being able to have a good paper MTG experience without having to spend thousands of dollars. Don't be petty because I can have just as much fun as you can without spending thousands. And no, playing with crappy unpassable proxies isn't as fun because the paper MTG experience doesn't feel the same. If I thought I'd have as much fun doing that, I wouldn't buy passable proxies in the first place.

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So you'll be buying the glossy fakes or the matte fakes?

You have no character. You want a $3,000 deck for free, and you want it to be tournament-legal. You can't be helped. Please quit Magic now.

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Originally Posted by ESG

So you'll be buying the glossy fakes or the matte fakes?

You have no character. You want a $3,000 deck for free, and you want it to be tournament-legal. You can't be helped. Please quit Magic now.

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Just for stating the obvious: 3000$ decks aren't helping the format grow. Neither does killing the collectible aspect via mass reprints or a fake-flooded market.

Legacy Masters ... damnit WotC!

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Originally Posted by ESG

So you'll be buying the glossy fakes or the matte fakes?

You have no character. You want a $3,000 deck for free, and you want it to be tournament-legal. You can't be helped. Please quit Magic now.

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Please let's stop the personal attacks. I want to be able to play a game and have the game play and skill matter, not the check book of the players. I want a good paper mtg experience without spending thousands because spending thousands shouldn't determine who wins and loses games.

Whether you win or lose against a 3000 dollar stoneblade deck or a 100 dollar passable version, as far as the game play is concerned the differences are arbitrary and irrelevant.

If you spent 3000 dollars on a deck, you still have it. And your deck is still valuable. Counterfeiting isn't new. Gucci bags and babe Ruth cards are still with thousands even though they have been counterfeited heavily.

Proxies that are passable eliminate an arbitrary barrier to entrance that is based on wealth, not skill or game effort.

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

Proxies that are passable eliminate an arbitrary barrier to entrance that is based on wealth, not skill or game effort.

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I see your point and God knows I'd love to see everyone build a Legacy deck for 500€. But I feel heavily obliged to correct you on that on competitive level, the combinaton of skill and variance are the only barrier to actually being good. It's not like you could suddenly become successful once you picked up a decent deck. Actually, that's the kind of reasoning that is holding a lot of people back.

But honestly, there's just way too much black/white thinking and reasoning here. Hardly anybody here wants cards to diminish in value, so people should stop crafting steaw mans.

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

Please let's stop the personal attacks. I want to be able to play a game and have the game play and skill matter, not the check book of the players. I want a good paper mtg experience without spending thousands because spending thousands shouldn't determine who wins and loses games.

Whether you win or lose against a 3000 dollar stoneblade deck or a 100 dollar passable version, as far as the game play is concerned the differences are arbitrary and irrelevant.

If you spent 3000 dollars on a deck, you still have it. And your deck is still valuable. Counterfeiting isn't new. Gucci bags and babe Ruth cards are still with thousands even though they have been counterfeited heavily.

Proxies that are passable eliminate an arbitrary barrier to entrance that is based on wealth, not skill or game effort.

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Sure there are many who probably share that sentiment, that to be able to play competitive Magic doesn't require taking another mortgage out. However it's not the reality so wholly supporting illegal endeavors to get there doesn't seem quite right.

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

What about me not using passable proxies in tournaments. Or what about me using the cards in tournaments but not marking the cards or sleeves. In that situation, gameplay isn't affected or hindered at all. Neither is the tournament. I still have to pay an entry fee to compete. I just don't need to also spend well over $1000 on 75 pieces of cardboard. By the way, people mark real cards and sleeves in tournaments too.

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^^ is this the "personal use for kitchen table"?

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

Please let's stop the personal attacks. I want to be able to play a game and have the game play and skill matter, not the check book of the players. I want a good paper mtg experience without spending thousands because spending thousands shouldn't determine who wins and loses games.

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The investment in one's deck has always been part of the game. There are formats with less intimidating entry barriers available - Limited, Standard. One can print out paper proxies to enjoy kitchen table magic and playtesting of any format. Or play another game of skill that allows you to buy all necessary pieces in one cheap package - poker, online strategy games, etc.

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

Whether you win or lose against a 3000 dollar stoneblade deck or a 100 dollar passable version, as far as the game play is concerned the differences are arbitrary and irrelevant.

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Except that the player playing a proxy deck is cheating. I don't have a problem playtesting against a proxied version of a deck or even local casual events allowing proxies, but in a major tournament setting where everyone else has come to grips with the cost entry barrier of playing the format and ponied up their $1000-$3000 to play, it is unfair to be using fake cards. IE your cost of entry into a SCG Open series is $140 where a legitimate players' is $2040 - in the case that either of you take first your gain is 1614% where the legitimate player's is 18%. Granted this is just displaying initial buy in and first event entry, but the concept carries over - the legitimate player decides to change their splash color, picks up a few duals and staples to change their deck around +~$500; a proxies player does the same +~$50. This undermines the resources and work that a legitimate player is putting into their deck construction.

I don't see how you can put yourself in the shoes of someone who has been supporting the game and buying licensed cards and not see how they would be upset by passable fakes.

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

I want to be able to play a game and have the game play and skill matter, not the check book of the players. I want a good paper mtg experience without spending thousands because spending thousands shouldn't determine who wins and loses games.

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It does matter, as Julian said. For people who have impossibly small budgets -- and I've never met a gamer for whom Legacy was truly unaffordable -- there are plenty of ways to enjoy sanctioned Magic. You can draft or play in Sealed events. You can play in cheaper formats. The prices for MTGO are different, cheaper in many cases. And obviously you can play whatever you want for non-sanctioned events, or for Cube, or for other casual events.

What I get from your posts is selfishness. You want an expensive Legacy deck but don't want to pay for it. You want it to be tournament-legal. As far as I can see, you joined The Source simply to stir up trouble.

1. This thread is about Chinese fakes, not about the reserved list.
2. This is a "trading" card game. Some cards are more valuable than others.
3. Don't bother discussing the reserved list, they will never get rid of it.