Yeah, I just found that out myself and deleted original post. It was exiting there for a minute though.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
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Yeah, I just found that out myself and deleted original post. It was exiting there for a minute though.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
Misdirection is getting used a lot in this meta to change the targets of counters and removal. One important side effect of this is that Blue Elemental Blast is now better than Hydroblast. The Hydroblast can get misdirected to just about anything, including the Misdirection targeting it. The BEB stays on target unless the opponent has another red permanent or chooses to cast another red spell that BEB can legitimately target.
However, you can cast Pyro/Hydro with no 'real' targets at the end of a turn, untap and Delve it away if you really need to.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
This is true, however if I have either of those spells tuned in they are likely among the most valuable in the list at the moment. I'm unlikely to throw them away to delve for a spell in that situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
I guess it's a meta call. I have a lot of UR Delver, BUG Control and Miracles in my meta at the moment and I'm seeing Misdirection every other match or so.
It's such a strange meta developing in front of us. A lot of blue control, blue aggro control, red aggro and Elves. It was really nice seeing Enchantress on Friday because it's too easy to get stretched out conforming to a local meta and then wind up blindsided by something at a big event.
Enchantress is not something I'd be surprised to see more of now, and it's not nearly as easy a matchup as it looks at first glance. So good to get practice in.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Enchantress was my first pet deck in Legacy. I used to play it religiously, but eventually got tired of how linear most of the games were. It also become next-to-unplayable once herp-derp combo cards like Emrakul got printed. Alas.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
I'd actually be kind of happy to see this deck finally get a chance to shine. This is a deck that can run maindeck Rest in Peace (plus the Helm Combo), and has plenty of ways to shut down decks that want to win via the attack phase. Additionally, Blood Moon, Choke, and other SB problems... Luckily, BUG probably has the easiest time of all Delver decks with beating it. Abrupt Decay + Golgari Charm, counterspells, other removal, etc.
The problem with Enchantress is that it's a combo deck that can easily be dismantled. If you counter/destroy the first Enchantment effect and they don't have a backup, it's basically reduced to a pile that's playing a bunch of do-nothing spells like Wild Growth. Not only that, but pretty much *every* deck at least has access to sideboard cards that can cripple it. I think this deck probably needs to dip into some splash colors to deal with the current metagame, but the problem with doing that is it would dilute the number of Enchantment effects. You'd think WotC would have thrown Enchantress a few more bones in a supposed-Enchantment-themed block (Theros). I think what they really need to do is print a pseudo-functional reprint of Argothian Enchantress, except have it be an Enchantment Creature (and maybe to justify the increased power, make it cost WG instead of 1G). Or perhaps even better, a pseudo-functional reprint *without* shroud that only costs G.
/off-topic aside
As for BUG Delver, I still feel like Hymn to Tourach is a powerful card to be running. While I do think that TC has fundamentally changed how a lot of Delver vs. Delver matchups play out, you still have to consider all the other decks that are still being run in the format. Hymn is still a beating against (most forms of) combo, midrange, aggro, and even control. Thoughtseize is a mixed bag, sometimes better, often times way worse (e.g. against Burn). I will grant that Hymn paradoxically fuels TC and TC itself makes it a lot easier to recover, but in those situations you can just sideboard the card out.
I've been playing around with running 1-2 Dredge cards in the main deck. Darkblast and Life from the Loam are both pretty fantastic on their own against the right matchup, and of course their Dredge ability helps to fuel multiple TC's. To make room for LftL, I've been testing cutting the 4th Wasteland and just running 19 lands -- this way you still have the same number of colored sources, and in the event of facing a deck soft to Wasteland you have the potential of locking them out.
Briefly off topic - Enchantress is a pet deck of mine as well and I've been lending it out at locals to folks who don't have Legacy decks. It's a deck that can maindeck a Blood Moon (I'm actually running 1 main, 1 board) at essentially no cost to itself. BUG definitely has the easiest time of all the Delver decks against it, but the matchup is far from a walk for BUG Delver. Favorable? Sure. Auto win? Far from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
On topic - I'm doing a lot of testing of somewhat strange BUG shells right now as well, and while I haven't tried Darkblast, I've actually been tinkering with a Landstill like shell that runs Loam. Do you mind posting a list? This thread may not be the best to discuss it though, since mine doesn't run Delver. As for Hymn vs. Thoughtseize, I think that the biggest reasons for Thoughtseize are that it requires less mana overall (and so allows you to play more spells in a turn) and less black mana (so gives you more fetch flexibility). The other half of costing less is that it allows us to hold up harder counters, whose stock is rising both because of us wanting to counter opposing Cruises and because there's a lot of value in being able to stop topdecked haymakers like Jace, Rest in Peace, or Blood Moon. I normally wouldn't consider RiP a haymaker, but against DRS, Goyf, Cruise.dec it gets pretty ugly even if you have Decay for it as soon as it lands. While reactive spells are a little weaker with Cruise than proactive ones, my testing suggests that this is a tradeoff worth making right now.
I've been having quite a bit of success with this deck on cockatrice
18 lands
3 underground seas
3 tropical island
3 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta
2 verdant catacombs
4 wastelands
creatures 12
4 tarmogoyf
4 deathrite shaman
4 delver
sorcery/instant 30
4 brainstorm
4 daze
4 ponder
3 treasure cruise
3 force of will
4 stifle
2 spell pierce
1 dimir charm
1 disfigure
4 abrupt decay
sideboard
1 force of will
2 disfigure
2 golgari charm
1 spell pierce
1 notion thief
1 vendilion clique
1 envelop
1 zur's weirding
1 pithing needle
1 null rod
1 nihil spellbomb
1 sylvan library
1 blue elemental blast
How has Stifle been working out for you?
I've been on Thoughtseize recently, taking opposing Treasure Cruises has been pretty good at ensuring I resolve the first one.
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Treasure Cruise
3 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Liliana of the Veil
SB
3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Spell Pierce
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
True-Name is there to have more non-graveyard dependant threats. I've been really liking them as creatures 13-14. Not running Hymn lessens the strain on the manabase, I'd be running 3 Trop/4 Usea or go down to 18 lands if I cut the Liliana for something else.
The sideboard is a bit looser than I would like, but having access to 6 additional removal spells has really helped creature matchups. I'd like to find room for some cards to improve my Miracles and Sneak and Show matchup, probably cutting a Disfigure and a piece of GY hate.
Darkblast is a no-brainer in the 75 at this point and there's a really good argument for it in the main list. It's hard to squeeze into my 60 at the moment but I'm looking for ways.
Any reasons for that? It's pretty back against the mirror, the partial mirror - both BUG X and X Delver - UW Control, Lands, Storm, and Show and Tell. It's good against Elves and DnT. Anything I'm missing?
Hei Guys
Yesterday in a 21 Player Tournament: 4:1 Close..
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Treasure Cruise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Brainstorm
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 3 Disfigure
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
Match ups:
1:2 Burn. Was very very Close.
2:0 Jund
2:1 12 Post
2:1 Infect Mono G^^
2:1 MuD Post
Treasure cruise is so insane in this Deck.;)
greets Dingo
I played a very very similar list on Saturday (Only changes +1 Lili -1 Fetch) and had the most badest turney with this deck by far :frown: (Nic Fit sucks :mad:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
My MU`s were
UR Delver (1:2) Game 1 I won easily and G2+3 my manabase fucked me and BS did not found a 2nd land, Shaman got bolted...
Punishing Nic Fit (0:2) (He crushed me hard, resolving Cruise helped not that much, Stalker would have won me 1 game...)
BW Deadguy (1:2) (RIP and a unanswered Bob lost me the game, 2 Cruise were stranded in my hand, charm handled RIP but immediatly after that he hymned away my 2 Cruises)
Dark Maverick (1:2) (I disfigured + wasted + Hymned away 4 manasources in total on T3 but he drew like a god, in the other game a Knight equipped with SoFI + Batterskull was to much for me after not finding a lili or decay)
All in all those games were very very close & sometimes my manabase fucked me hard (especially against UR Delver & Maverick) or my opponents had just a better draw than me, so I´m considering putting back the 20th land. Sometimes i missed Stalker as a late game big fattie trump card which closes the game (Maybe it was just because my MU´s were very removal intensive), even if Cruise was good.
Now I play 2 Cruise + 1 Stalker instead of 3 cruise.
I played 2 Charm & 2 Deluge in the SB and Deluge was not very impressive at all, most of the time in the past I could not cast it because of a Thalia on the board or I did not want to cast it because I controled the board with my goodies anyway or I had to play it and blow up 1-2 guys of my own, so I will reduce the numer to 1 and up the Disfigure count to 3.
I think Charm is more important in the future against white decks because now with Cruise everywhere everybody will hate us with RIP (happened twice against me this Saturday!), destroying this asshole enchantment will be important.
Yeah, here are the lists it's really good against right now:Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
UR Delver - Delver of Secrets, Young Pyromancer, elemental tokens, Grim Lavamancer.
BUG Delver - Delver of Secrets, Deathrite Shaman (use during upkeep, dredge it out and use again because DRS is the killer creature in this meta, same utility against a flipped delver), Goyf wars, Dark Confidant in some builds.
Elves - Every elf in Elfball except for Nettling Sentinel and if you stabilize can keep Nettling Sentinel off the board also, Wirewood Simbiote, etc.
Maverick - Mom, Thalia, DRS (must keep DRS down at all costs) assorted other critters depending on which variant they're playing.
UG Infect - Everything has 1 toughness in this list and it's a tool against them although you need more to beat them consistently.
Jund - DRS, Dark Confidant, Goyf wars.
D&T - Half the creatures in their list including all of the locking ones.
Rock - DRS, Dark Confidant, Goyf wars, various hatebears depending on the variant they are playing.
BUG Control - DRS, Goyf wars, Baleful Strix, etc.
Various other creatures it can manage that can be hard to deal with otherwise: Meddling Mage, Vendilion Clique (can Brainstorm to get it out of your GY and kill Clique when it lands, saving other important cards in the process and making your opponent very sad), Snapcaster Mage, Ichorid, etc.
It's a really useful removal spell in this meta given the creatures in play. It's very close to main list status in a list that wants to delve.
On the topic of discard vs extra counters: the top of your opponent's library is what kills you in this meta. There's too much card draw out there and the best of it relies on having cards in the GY. The discard elements are like a prep for the point where you're both low on cards and the initial exchanges are over and the first person to successfully resolve their plan will win. Stopping the opponent from doing that is really critical in this meta. Being able to do it yourself is really critical also. Discard helps on one side of that equation, counters help on both.
@manipulato
happens men. I don't like 19 lands in a deck that need land's and bb for a hymn or to cast a tarmo or a lili
I never had problems with the manabase. Well i'm now 37:3 since i play this list^^
i think 3 is the right number for cruise in a bug list. We always want one and draw a second.
If you have alot midrange decks like jund or mavericks or same for Ur Delver, you shoud play disfigure ;))
3-4 pieces.
golgari charm is always nice. toxic deluge is ok but i dont like it in a deck like this. It's 3 mana and your own creatures dies too.
Krosan Grip is nice to for a 5th decay against RIP and Batterskull.
Darkblastwooooo.
For the purposes of all of these; it's only good against a pre-flipped Delver, unless you want to skip your Draw Step to get your Spell Countered.
UR Delver: I assume most lists are going to become Delver/Guide/Swiftspear, at least for the time being. That's everything on 2-toughness, and then see above. You can NEVER cast it on a Swiftspear.
BUG Delver: As above with both Delver and Shaman, but the presence of Shaman means you can't even do the trick, except on the turn it comes down. Then it's a "BB: Force of Will" exclusively for Shaman. Your comments about Goyf wars, whilst relevant, are probably not ideal. I'd rather be doing - erm - anything else. I'll just Golgari Charm for Regen and exile something with a Shaman if it gets REALLY shaky.
BUG Midrange: As previous. Darkblasting cards that have "draw a card" attached to them is a surefire way to lose a game, deathtouch or not. Wait for an opportune Golgari Charm.
Jund: Again; boarding in Dredge cards against a Deathrite deck, in a game entirely about card advantage seems... Loose.
So; good against Elves, Infect, and DnT. The Maverick deck is arguable, as it's good against Thalia and MoR, but bad against Deathrite Shaman, and everything else in the deck you care about. We're not fast enough to be able to double Darkblast a Stoneforge, because they will just find another or cast their Batterskull through any Dazes. We will have to Force it, as we have no main-deck answers to a Batterskull. Now you've just 4-1'd.
It's just not that great. I can see it in the board for DnT and Elves, then splash damage against other decks, but maining it seems just awful. We should just play Disfigure.
I'm going to replace the singleton Toxic Deluge main with the Darkblast and see how it does. It shores up my weakest matches at the moment, which I see as UR Delver and Elves, and the sweeper almost never came online fast enough game one without additional help from the sideboard.
I'm not going to main list Disfigure. One and done is not the kind of card advantage that works in this meta with such a narrow card.
Yeah it was the 1st time playing the deck with 19 lands :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
My first 3 turney with the classic oldschool list went always 4:1 or better but I´m always working on new versions...I played 3 cruise and it was absolutley ok, exept for the scenario when RIP resolved...I think I will up the Charm count to 3 and the Disfigure count also, I need fast removal especially against D&T, Elves, etc...Deluge was always very slow & clumpy...Darkblast is also a interesting card...
I think I should not be that scared after that result, it can happen...
This is the configuration I've settled on:
20 lands (4 sea, 2 trop, 1 bayou, 4 waste, 9 fetch)
4/4/4 delver / DRS / goyf
4/4/4 ponder / bstorm/ TC
4/4 FoW / Daze
4/2/2 Decay / Liliana / Dimir Charm
Dimir Charm is fantastic right now against most Tier 1 decks. Hits most of the spells you want to hit, kills lots of creatures you want to kill, and at worst provides some filter or can be pitched to FoW. It's hardly ever dead and rarely gets sided out. Until Treasure Cruise gets banned, I'm not so sure Discard is what we want to be running.
Why TA instead of URx? BUG is still fantastic thanks to the absurdity of DRS, Abrupt Decay, and brute strength of Goyf. Liliana is also a versatile card that can help carry you into the midgame and take over. I haven't had issues resolving multiple TC's or having them interfere with DRS/Goyf. Only Rest in Peace is a problem, and even that is hardly game-over.
As for my current sideboard:
3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Dread of Night*
2 Spell Pierce
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction**
1 Jace, TMS
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle***
1 Maelstrom Pulse
*DnT is enough of a problem that I play 1 copy of this to deal with that deck. If you don't see it much, Darkblast or some other removal spell can replace Dread of Night. Toxic Deluge doesn't work so well in TA vs how it functions in BUG Cascade.
** Reanimator, Punishing Fire, etc.. And also useful against some combo decks. But not a necessity and this slot could easily go towards something else.
*** Not entirely sold on P. Needle. But it's been pretty helpful against Miracles and other decks. This could probably be something else.
This is kind of where I've been since I realized UR Delver was going to go tier 1 with Treasure Cruise and Monastery Swiftspear.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
I'm running 19 colored mana sources and no wastes. I'm running 10 counters and no discard. I'm playing WaterBUG against the meta at the moment and it seems to be working.
Agree completely with the Dimir Charm assessment. It's a great card in this meta. I'm torn between running 1 and 2 main list because of the 2cc cost. I really want a 1cc removal spell to handle the first Elf and a Delver of Secrets the turn it lands. Darkblast is the other card I'm considering and I don't know which is better. I already have 28 blue spells for Force of Will so that's not a consideration.
Edit: Darkblast is a winner against D&T also. It hits Mom the turn she lands, Thalia, Flickerwisp, Phyrexian Revoker, Aven Mindcensor and Spirit of the Labyrinth if they're running that as a hate bear. It dredges back out into your hand as a control device against them and makes your Treasure Cruises easy to cast. I wish I had a way to get it into the main list and SB once each but I just don't have room right now. It's fighting with Toxic Deluge, Pernicious Deed and Ensnaring Bridge for spots in the SB and it doesn't sweep or control the way they do.