[Deck] Grixis Tempo

Hi guys!
Thanks for the congratulations. I'm currently moving so I don't have much time to play, but I'm always glad to give some advice.

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Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian

I went 0-3 last night with the Stifle build, a combination of bad matchups (R1 1-2 against Eldrazi, R2 0-2 against RUG Lands) and probably bad boarding decisions on my part. But my R1 opponent called you out by name, Agrippa! You're basically famous now!

Curious about the Shardless matchup, which I went 1-2 against but it was very close: I found myself boarding out almost all of my counterspells, and bringing in all the additional removal, plus Pyroblast, Ancient Grudge, and Pithing Needle (for Liliana). Does that sound right?

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Lol I don't know about the "famous" part, but yeah I know Jaytron from various Legacy twitch chats.

I think you board partly wrong vs. Shardless:
- Pyroblast is ok against them (though I don't like more than 1 tbh because you already have 4 stifles to stop ancestral visions). I wouldn't necessarily want more than 1. Before getting a second I'd rather keep an additional FoW for Toxic Deluge or a big threat.
- Pithing Needle and Ancient Grudge are some very very narrow cards. You already have more than enough stuff to answer Strix and Agent and Pithing Needle is quite bad because:
1. when you play it out before Liliana resolves your opponent just doesn't play her and brainstorms her away, leaving you with card disadvantage. If he really wants to push it through he's gonna Decay the needle eot anyways and then play his lili.
2. when you play Needle after Liliana has resolved you already have sacrificed a creature (which can be game-losing if it was e.g. an Angler).
The main way to play around Planeswalkers really is Daze and Stifles (e.g. stifle the sac ability) mixed with YP-tokens. Planeswalkers really aren't that good against this build and I really wouldn't want a specific answer to them.

The way I board is bringing in Grim Lavamancer, Forked Bolt, Fire Covenant, 2 Decay, Surgery and Pyroblast, taking out all the Probes and Forces (you can leave in like 2 otd cutting some Dazes). Especially Daze is really good in this matchup because Shardless can't really afford to play around it all the time. They tap out pretty much every single turn to play the most game-changing thing and our task is to prevent their 2-3-4-mana investments by our own 0-1-2 mana responses, gaining tempo. Also we have slight card advantage via Grim Lavamancer, Fire Covenant and Young Pyromancer plus the fact that they have to play out all their lands while we can operate on 3 (if you play decay, 2 if you don't).

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Originally Posted by ZEROorDIE

do you guys have some pointers for the mana less Dredge match up? I don't see the deck very often but lately there's been a few at my local weekly event. just not sure the best way to attack the strategy, especially now that they have prized amalgam.

also I guess it's time to retune my SB. Dredge and D&T are now like 50% of the meta.

also best SB answers to TNN?

thanks

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Dredge is hated out rather easily tbh, just put in 2-3 Surgical Extractions in the sb (though I'd say 2 should be enough). For D&T I like Dread of Night or Grim Lavamancer (the last one especially when they're heavy on Sanctum Prelates).
I don't like Stifle vs. D&T, you should cut them for Therapies (they reveal cards to you with Stoneforge and Recruiter). Removal like Grim Lavamancer and Forked Bolt are key in this matchup, but so are Pithing Needles imo (Mom, Rishadan Port, Vial, Equipment).

The best answer to TNN are really Pyroblast and Daze, often times it's also not that big of a threat when you have a board that can race it. The nasty things with TNN really are the equipments, but once you get rid of them post-sb it should be not that much of a problem.
When you lose to cards like that ask yourself if you'd lost to any big spell they could have (Lingering Souls? Mentor? Jace? Angler? Goyf?). Chances are you already were behind because you e.g. couldn't prevent them from getting enough mana and not threaten them with creatures early on. Losing to TNN is really just the nail in the coffin, but not the specific reason you lost there. I lost to TNN a fair share myself, but almost never when I was ahead in the game.

Hi - I was wondering if anyone had opinions on the RW painter match up...

I've not played vs it much and I got trashed by it recently (I know, testing vs it will help me get better, but multiple early blood moons can be such a beating even with DRS)

My list:

4 DRS
4 Delver
3 YP
2 Angler
1 TNN

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Bolt
4 FoW
4 Daze
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dismember

4 Strand
4 Delta
3 Volc
2 Sea
1 Trop
4 Wasteland

2 Pithing Needle
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Flusterstorm
2 Baleful Strix
1 Forked Bolt
1 Fire Covenant
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge

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Originally Posted by Agrippa91

Hi guys!

Dredge is hated out rather easily tbh, just put in 2-3 Surgical Extractions in the sb (though I'd say 2 should be enough). For D&T I like Dread of Night or Grim Lavamancer (the last one especially when they're heavy on Sanctum Prelates).
I don't like Stifle vs. D&T, you should cut them for Therapies (they reveal cards to you with Stoneforge and Recruiter). Removal like Grim Lavamancer and Forked Bolt are key in this matchup, but so are Pithing Needles imo (Mom, Rishadan Port, Vial, Equipment).

The best answer to TNN are really Pyroblast and Daze, often times it's also not that big of a threat when you have a board that can race it. The nasty things with TNN really are the equipments, but once you get rid of them post-sb it should be not that much of a problem.
When you lose to cards like that ask yourself if you'd lost to any big spell they could have (Lingering Souls? Mentor? Jace? Angler? Goyf?). Chances are you already were behind because you e.g. couldn't prevent them from getting enough mana and not threaten them with creatures early on. Losing to TNN is really just the nail in the coffin, but not the specific reason you lost there. I lost to TNN a fair share myself, but almost never when I was ahead in the game.

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thanks for the thorough response, and also everyone else for their responses. I believe I was just approaching the match ups wrong last week and had a bit of a bad luck streak (dredge guy had me t2 both games and boarded wrong against bant blade knowing the guy is usually on maverick)

I am going to tune up my SB based on the way my local meta has changed and hopefully can do a bit better than 2-2 next week.

cheers

@FCowper:
I find the matchup rather favorable tbh. Whenever you're otd though you really should try to mulligan to a FoW if your hand isn't completely insane. It's the only way we can lose right at the start. Otd cabal therapy and daze help a lot against the enchantment. Whenever possible you should just let a magus of the moon resolve and draw for a bolt (e.g. when you already have a board presence and a fow in hand).

From your sideboard I like:

2 Pithing Needle
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge

cards you might consider but I don't like are:

Pyroblast: If he's smart he won't name blue in match 2 and 3 with his painter servant. This would just allow you to pitch every card from your hand to FoW and use your own pyroblasts. Right now he already has a vast amount of targets with his pyroblasts, most importantly Delver, FoW and other countermagic.

Surgical Extraction: This is way too cute most of the time. You lose to so many things from this deck that you would really rather have a fast clock or not-so-narrow countermagic than a surgical that gives you card disadvantage. If you manage to get one of his combo pieces (requiring you to kill/discard it first) he still can just blood moon you or kill you with damage.

Flusterstorm: It's not worth just countering the pyroblasts, you just look stupid when he goes for blood moon or the combo.

Forked Bolt: Doesn't kill Painter Servant which is almost the only target for our bolts.

Fire Covenant: Getting 2 cards for this is rather rare and it can be really clunky. Not advisable.

In this matchup I like cutting Gurmag Angler. Dismember is also worse than your other removal. I would propably just cut down to 3 probes and leave the 3rd therapy in the sb, bringing in 2 needles, decay and grudge. With therapies most of the time you're either just blind naming blood moon (one of the few scary card) or you know what he's got from probes and imperial recruiter.

In my experience, in Dredge matchup the best cards are:

- Deathrite Shaman (with Tropical for the Dredge creature)
- Bolt on our creature for remove Bridge (on a Delver or Pyromancer preferably)
- Surgical Extraction (obv)

Other cards who sometimes we can find in maindeck/sideboard:

- Vendilion Clique
- Engineered Explosives
- Flusterstorm

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Originally Posted by Agrippa91

@FCowper:
I find the matchup rather favorable tbh. Whenever you're otd though you really should try to mulligan to a FoW if your hand isn't completely insane. It's the only way we can lose right at the start. Otd cabal therapy and daze help a lot against the enchantment. Whenever possible you should just let a magus of the moon resolve and draw for a bolt (e.g. when you already have a board presence and a fow in hand).

From your sideboard I like:

2 Pithing Needle
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge

cards you might consider but I don't like are:

Pyroblast: If he's smart he won't name blue in match 2 and 3 with his painter servant. This would just allow you to pitch every card from your hand to FoW and use your own pyroblasts. Right now he already has a vast amount of targets with his pyroblasts, most importantly Delver, FoW and other countermagic.

Surgical Extraction: This is way too cute most of the time. You lose to so many things from this deck that you would really rather have a fast clock or not-so-narrow countermagic than a surgical that gives you card disadvantage. If you manage to get one of his combo pieces (requiring you to kill/discard it first) he still can just blood moon you or kill you with damage.

Flusterstorm: It's not worth just countering the pyroblasts, you just look stupid when he goes for blood moon or the combo.

Forked Bolt: Doesn't kill Painter Servant which is almost the only target for our bolts.

Fire Covenant: Getting 2 cards for this is rather rare and it can be really clunky. Not advisable.

In this matchup I like cutting Gurmag Angler. Dismember is also worse than your other removal. I would propably just cut down to 3 probes and leave the 3rd therapy in the sb, bringing in 2 needles, decay and grudge. With therapies most of the time you're either just blind naming blood moon (one of the few scary card) or you know what he's got from probes and imperial recruiter.

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Thanks, I'll bear this in mind going forward. :)

Hi guys!

After having played a fair amount online this past month (not many leagues, I'm a poor student) I've attuned my sb a bit.
Most importantly Grim Lavamancer and Fire Covenant are gone now. I experienced that these cards are just insane in matchups where I already feel highly favorable (elves, shardless) while being just a tad too slow/clunky against the big eldrazi monsters, d&t and fellow delver players.

I experienced that especially otd I'm often in a very controlling role, trying to stop the onslaught. Therefore I've employed 2 Baleful Strixes now that helped me a lot so far. Unlike Grim Lavamancer and Fire Covenant I don't bring them in against something like Elves, but they're equally good against Shardless and better against Eldrazi and Delver so I feel like they're worth it.

So here's my current list:

creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler

instants and sorceries (29)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt


lands (18)
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland

sideboard (15)
2 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyroblast
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Flusterstorm
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Terminate
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Baleful Strix

I've switched Terminate to the sb again for Forked Bolt which is in the mb again. I just feel like preboard I have enough answers to big stuff in form of 4 FoWs and Anglers, I found myself wanting a F-Bolt isntead though a decent amount of time, mostly against opposing DRSs.

I must say that playing online has really helped my game against Miracles. I just feel really comfortable against it which certainly has to do with the fact that I have plenty of answers to terminus (4 stifle, surgery, fluster) and the sdt-cb-lock (2 needles, 2 decay, pyroblast).
This allows me to stifle (hehe) their approach in the early game while still being able to grind them out later when they hit land drops, but I operate with 3-4 lands max. I prevent them from hardcasting the termini that are stranded in their hand by keeping in 2 dazes and 2 wastelands while a 1-of cabal therapy could be top-decked at any point to rip them out of the hand forever.

I also came to realize that Abrupt Decay is not the way to go against D&T when in this matchup I really want to board out my stifles. :tongue:
Old&new thalia tax my mana hard there, but I found Dazes and therapies to be a good combination here since they're rather clunky with all their 2-3-drops.
I really like decay against random decks though that don't play Wastelands (burn, elves, ur-delver, ug cloudpost) or just goyf-decks that aren't delver.

I just sleeved this up for a small event, with 4 stifle main.
Round 1 against D&T draw
Game one I drop delver turn one with daze back up, counter mother and next turn I stifle wasteland and force a vial, delver goes the distance
Game 2 I lose to a board of creatures
Game 3 I keep a hand with dread of night and fire covenant, windmill slam dread of night, the game goes fine but I go to time, opponent had a meek stone so I wasn't concerned about flipping delver, second to last turn I am in a hurry and fail to flip delver for a draw.

Round 2 Belcher
Game 1 Lose to a board full of tokens turn 2
Game 2 lose to s board full of tokens on turn 2
I think I want mind break trap for this meta, I brainstormed into a fluster storm but i had tapped out, MBT would have saved me.

Round 3 storm
Win the first game by pinging him down too low to go off
Game 2 i get hit with every discard spell ever
Game 3 I almost win, he ad nauseum down to 1 life, I have no bolt and he top decks lions eye diamond for the win from a ponder.

Then I left to get some sleep

It was my first time with the deck, i really like the deck, I love stifle, I am considering 4 MD therapy instead of two, I have the other 2 SB, but I am not sure where I stand on that yet, I sided out young pyro in every game and he never really did anything, (mostly because storm) but even against D&T he was overkill or shuffled away

Was it a typo or did you actuallly say you want 4 therapies in the MB? I guess you meant SB.
The creatures to side out really are the Anglers because you often times can't get them out early enough, especially when holding up stuff (combo) or when your stuff becomes exiled or put on the bottom of your library (Miracles). Sometimes (especially when they have a superior linear strategy and and next to no removal) you side out your Anglers to have more answers. Examples are Infect or Cloudpost. Often times in this scenario you'r siding in your therapies then though, so having the YPs is essential here (otherwise the therapies might as well be Thoughtseizes).

I like the Flusterstorm and Surgery more against combo than the 4th therapy because unlike therapy the blue cards are excellent against Miracles. Flusterstorm is also really nice against Delver while Surgery is nice against GSZ decks, lands etc. where I wouldn't necessarily want the therapies, at least not 4.
With Pyroblasts and Surgicals I'm on the "below average" count, too. My logic is that the first one is really good in many matchups (BUG, ANT, Delver), but the second one can be really weird, especially when you're just stuck in hand with them. My reasoning with Surgical is that I feel pretty comfortable against lands, storm, reanimator and dredge as it is, no need for a second copy that I'll rarely use, especially online.

And with 7 cards against your "average" (storm) combo deck (Fluster, Surgery, Pyroblast, Surgical, 3 therapies) and 7 cards to take out (5 bolts, 2 anglers) there's not really need to have an additional one in the sb. You might consider cutting Wasteland or Daze but truth is that due to the stifle the opponent can't just fetch all basics and there's nothing you can do.
That said I do side out 2 Wastelands against S&T because in addition to the above mentioned cards I bring in the 2 Pithing Needles. I just don't know what else to cut (Tropical maybe? I really never want this card in this matchup!)

To the YP: They're definitely clunky, especially when you play stifle. It's the reason I only play 3 of them (also 13 creatures is plenty in delver imo) because most of the time you want to hold open a mana when you play him.
That said He's an MVP in certain matchups:

Eldrazi/MUD: I've won multiple games against resolves Chalices where a Delver swung (or the were just got wasteland/dazed) while I filled the ground with elementals (from countered spells). Especially because they have no removal this guy is great in these BIG matchups.

Miracles: It's a card that when the game advances and you're not locked out doesn't trade for less than a Terminus (mentor is a problem though, no idea why he's not played more).

Shardless: Great for two reasons, one being the fact that it's our "card advantage" engine that screw up their 1-for-1 plan, two because it trades well for Baleful Strix which is the go-to-answer for creature decks these days (especially with that many Eldrazi).

Combo: As a rule of thumb never tap out with YP when playing this stifle version, you just have way too many cards that you might want to cast in response to theirs (fluster, pyroblast, surgery, stifle, brainstorm). Of course there're exceptions, e.g. when you're on the play and you have Daze (more against S&T than Storm), when you have a weak hand or when you have a FoW+blue and are quite certain they can't beat that for now. That said YP is really a fast clock that is insane with therapies (who would've guessed?).
Whenever they try to go off it's a do or die situation more often than not because your fighting generally creates enough tokens to increase the clock significantly (e.g. good against S&T that just plays out their stuff every turn waiting for it to get countered).

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Originally Posted by Agrippa91

Shardless: Great for two reasons, one being the fact that it's our "card advantage" engine that screw up their 1-for-1 plan, two because it trades well for Baleful Strix which is the go-to-answer for creature decks these days (especially with that many Eldrazi).

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This is an interesting outlook. I've always consider the MD Stifle versions of Grixis worse Pyromancer decks than the Stifle versions, and as a Shardless player I'm definitely more afraid (on average) of getting Stifled by a turn 1 Delver draw than a turn 2 Pyromancer draw. I think Shardless is pretty favored either way, but it's worth seeing someone else's view on it. Also, while Pyromancer is good against Baleful Strix, he's much less impressive against Shardless Agent.

Hey guys! I'm new here, and have been looking to get into Grixis in legacy. I am currently a Reanimator player, but it is poorly positioned in my local meta, so I want to try something that is more competitive, and have always been a fan of Grixis (having previously played Grixis Delver and Grixis Control in modern). I have almost everything I need for the deck - except Volcanic Islands (and perhaps some sideboard cards, depending on the list). I understand that I of course need the Volcs for an ideal list, and do plan to get them over time if I enjoy the deck, but I won't be able to get any right away.

So my questions is this: Is it possible to play the deck at FNM-level without them, or are the alternatives so bad as to make the entire deck unplayable? The lands I currently have access to that are of relevance here:
Duals:
2x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
1x Badlands
1x Bayou

Shocks:
4x of all Grixis shocks

Fetches:
4x of all Grixis fetches
1x Verdant Catacombs

Are there perhaps some Grixis variants I could play with these lands available, while others are unplayable? Could I e.g. substitute Steam Vents for Volcs and go lighter on Daze?

@btm10

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I've always consider the MD Stifle versions of Grixis worse Pyromancer decks than the Stifle versions

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What do you mean? Isn't both the same?

@Athrenax:
Having all Grixis fetches helps a lot! You can play the Ed Demicco mana base which switches the 3rd Volcanic for a Badlands. Personally I've never considered this version because it requires Scalding Tarns which I don't want to buy, but it can definitely be very useful to have a 3rd black source!
You could play the Bayou you over the Tropical if you play 3 Volcanics, but you really don't want more than 1 nonblue dual so having bayou and badlands is a no-go in such a blue heavy deck.
With your lands I'd go with:
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
2 Steam Vents

Here's Ed Demicco's list for the reference (he's pretty much the counterpart to the Noah Walker list):
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/469543#online
It's propably not surprising that I would rather recommend my list though :tongue:
I just think that in many matchups (Eldrazi, Miracles, BUG, Grixis) Gurmag Angler is really, really good, imo there's no reason to play them in the sideboard.
Grim Lavamancer is a weird one and I've shifted away from it (played one in the sb a long time). But it not only makes you more succeptible to mini-wraths, but is also a fairly poor answer to DRS (though it looks great on paper). Thing is that if you play him before they'll likely not play their shaman while when you play him afterwards they'll untap with so much mana it's very likely they'll find a removal for it or just generally play bigger things than you'd like given your stifle/wasteland/daze angle of attack.

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Originally Posted by Agrippa91

@btm10

What do you mean? Isn't both the same?

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That should be "always considered the MD Stifle versions of Grixis worse Pyromancer decks than the Therapy versions..." For what it's worth I've also had more success with the Therapy versions of Grixis myself. RUG just seems to play the all-in mana denial game so much better than Grixis, in large part because there aren't a ton of great 1-mana answers to Nimble Mongoose the way there are to a Pyromancer.

Hey everyone. I'm looking into running Grixis delver at an event next weekend (As the local metagame is extremely combo-heavy and unfavorable towards my usual decks. And wanting to run different decks continually is a bad habit of mine). and, seeing the discussion earlier about manabase, I just wanted to ask what the most 'optimal' manabase I can run with what I have is. The issue is that I'm missing the third volc, and I don't have the tarns for the Demicco manabase that substitutes it for badlands. I'm looking at running a cabal therapy list, if that matters.

I have other blue fetches, a third sea, and other non-volc duals in these color combinations (Badlands, Bayou, Taiga, extra trop) on the off chance the best substitution somewhere involves those.

The thing with badlands is that you really want to be able to fetch it with all your 8 fetches, so 4 tarn 4 delta are the only options here because you need blue for the tropical island. If I were you I'd honestly just run a steam vents instead of the third volc. It's only worse when you directly draw the steam vents, there's really only a minimal chance you have to shock yourself honestly. Just don't get in the habit of fetching it end of turn to get it untapped just so you can thin your deck and not take 2 damage. You should only fetch it in this case when you'd want to fetch in your upkeep anyways (mostly because you don't want cards from ponder or brainstorm).

What is everyone's thoughts on running the Trop in the Sideboard? I run a pretty stock list (2 Cabal Therapy, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Spell Pierce as the flex slots), and I have noticed I am usually wishing I had an extra black source for a black spell and DRS activation in the same turn (not to mention vs wasteland decks). I also notice I almost never use the green for DRS unless it is a very specific match like Burn or Reanimator. My thoughts are running 3 volcs and 3 seas, with the trop in the SB for DRS and the Ancient Grudge flashback.

What do you guys think? Why haven't I seen this tried?

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Originally Posted by DanGomba

What is everyone's thoughts on running the Trop in the Sideboard? I run a pretty stock list (2 Cabal Therapy, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Spell Pierce as the flex slots), and I have noticed I am usually wishing I had an extra black source for a black spell and DRS activation in the same turn (not to mention vs wasteland decks). I also notice I almost never use the green for DRS unless it is a very specific match like Burn or Reanimator. My thoughts are running 3 volcs and 3 seas, with the trop in the SB for DRS and the Ancient Grudge flashback.

What do you guys think? Why haven't I seen this tried?

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The matchups where you really want the Tropical in g1 (otherwise it's like auto-concede) are basically all reanimator variants (tin-fins, ub, br), all dredge variants (manaless and "normal"), Burn, but I also use them frequently against BUG (shrinking Goyf by taking out their artifact creatures) and UR Delver (they hit hard).

I think that for the very specific thing that it does it's just a very efficient 1-of in the deck. I mean heck, most of the time you just cast blue spells of it anyways, so who cares.

If you want the additional black mana though I'd consider going down a blue instead. You can either cut Tropical for Bayou (with misty and delta) or the 3rd Volcanic for Badlands (with tarn and delta). Most Grixis players go down the first route, but having a single land for all 2 DRS activations (so you can choose whatever you want at the eot) seems sweet, too.

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Originally Posted by DanGomba

What is everyone's thoughts on running the Trop in the Sideboard? I run a pretty stock list (2 Cabal Therapy, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Spell Pierce as the flex slots), and I have noticed I am usually wishing I had an extra black source for a black spell and DRS activation in the same turn (not to mention vs wasteland decks). I also notice I almost never use the green for DRS unless it is a very specific match like Burn or Reanimator. My thoughts are running 3 volcs and 3 seas, with the trop in the SB for DRS and the Ancient Grudge flashback.

What do you guys think? Why haven't I seen this tried?

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Try 8 Fetch, 2 Sea, 2 Volcanic, 1 Trop, 1 Badlands, 4 Wasteland as manabase.
It'll fix your problem.
The only reason not to do this is the one hand every 200 games where you have the single Badlands in your starter hand with a card combination you're not willing to keep.

Hi fellas!

I played a 30 players legacy tournment last sunday, got 5th place with Grixis.

Check mylist> http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21422&iddeck=164300

1x1 Infect
0x2 Death and Taxes
2x0 Burn
2x0 Goblins
2x0 BANT Deathblade
2x0 UW Blade
----------------------
4V-1L-1D

care to elaborate on the D&T matches? Was it a new version with heretic thalia, recruiter and prelate? Did Prelate do anything in the match? How bad was Strix postboard (assuming you brought it in)?