[OLD] UGw Threshold

At Worlds, Zac Hill played a list with 3 Survival of the Fittest, a Wonder and a Squee, just to gain the advantage in the Thresh mirror since it was one of the most prominent decks.

What do you all think about playing it in this deck?
It would make all of your creatures Tarmogoyfs while giving them all flying and would give you a definite edge in the mirror as well as some flexibility in the SB to give you an edge in the MUs where you need more help fetching silver bullets like Meddling Mages, Gaddock, Harmonic, Dormant and whatnot.

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nitewolfe:
That's the thing I really like about aether vial. During your upkeep, you put counters on it so that when you activate it you can put a creature into play from your hand with converted mana cost equal to how many counters are on aether vial. Plus, you only need to tap aether vial to activate it.

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Thanks but I think everyone here knows the wording of Aether Vial (or has access to magiccards.info, etc.).

I think playing Aether Vial to win the mirror is overkill (and again, not a good idea if you run only 11 creatures).

I piloted this list (quite similar to Adan's one) to the Top8 of GP Stuttgart Side Event (72 participants) today.


// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Tundra
1 [US] Island
4 [B] Tropical Island
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [PT] Forest

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [TSB] Mystic Enforcer

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [OD] Predict
1 [IA] Portent (as Ponder#5)
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard (gnaaa, i wouldnt play it the same again)
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [CH]Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg


My matches in 8 rounds of swiss:

1. Round:
TES 2:1

2. Round:
NQG/w Mirror 1:1

3. Round:
Baseruption 2:0

4. Round:
Goblins 2:1

5. Round:
Ichorid 1:2

6. Round:
Solidarity 2:1

7. Round:
Goblins 2:0

8. Round:
White Stax 1:2 (i got a Penalty-Gameloss here because of some stupid mistake...)

this brought me somehow to place 8 of 72.

So what were you boarding in the matchups, and what do you think you'll prolly use as your SB next time?

Also- How do you like the Needles in the SB instead of maindecked?

Good job ! Ichorid is not an easy match-up for UGW...

What was the Top8 of this event ?

Thanks for posting your results, hope you have a bit of time to write a report.

P.S.: Epsilon-close lists have been piloted by many people on this forum. For example, mine is obtained from yours by doing the following changes to the maindeck: -1 Portent, - 1 EE, + 2 Needle. Why did you run 3 Gaddock Teeg in the SB ? Why only two Crypts ?

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Originally Posted by aTn

Why did you run 3 Gaddock Teeg in the SB ?

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Gaddock Teeg is something I'd always play if you expect any type of board control.
They nearly win singlehandedly your bad matchups like Landstill (Wrath, Explosives, Humility) which makes them a set-in-stone slot for me.
The fact that they are quite nice against combo (Tendrils, EtW, Dread Return) is a nice bonus.

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Gaddock Teeg is something I'd always play if you expect any type of board control. They nearly win singlehandedly your bad matchups like Landstill (Wrath, Explosives, Humility) which makes them a set-in-stone slot for me.

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I agree with you, but in my area, some Landstill builds are UWBg and run Pernicious Deeds...

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The fact that they are quite nice against combo (Tendrils, EtW, Dread Return) is a nice bonus.

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I find Gaddock nice against combo in theory. In practice there's always the possibility he'll get bounced or killed before your opponent casts Tendrils, EtW, Belcher, Dread Return, etc, especially against fast combo when you have to use countermagic to avoid your opponent from going off turn 1-2, before you can cast Gaddock and thus making him less easy to protect. That's just my experience, maybe I haven't tested him enough...

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Originally Posted by aTn

Landstill builds are UWBg and run Pernicious Deeds...

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That's why you run 2-3 Pithing Needles main. :wink: Pernicious Deed is definetely easier to handle than Wrath of God or Humility in my opinion.
I seriously don't understand why people would ever want to cut Needle as they are essential in most of your (few) bad matchups (board control) and never really dead.

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Originally Posted by aTn

I find Gaddock nice against combo in theory. In practice there's always the possibility he'll get bounced or killed before your opponent casts Tendrils, EtW, Belcher, Dread Return, etc.

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That can be said of any hate. Also, to bounce your Gaddock, your opponent will have to slow down, find his bounce / tutor which gives you more time to set your Balance+Top lock up. Gaddock serves the function of Meddling Mage here but I really like Gaddock over Mage because of Empty the Warrens... you now just can't chant Belcher/Tendrils and be safe because Goblins will still kill you.

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Originally Posted by aTn

Against fast combo when you have to use countermagic to avoid your opponent from going off turn 1-2, before you can cast Gaddock and thus making him less easy to protect.

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Against combo, you don't have to protect him... it is enough if he buys you a few turns for your other hate components to come online.

Also to note that Gaddock+Balance = gg against control (top=cmc1 to protect Gaddock from Swords) and combo (alongside a cmc2 to stop Burning Wish/Infernal Tutor).
I am aware of the fact that a resolved Balance is godly against combo but he can always outmana you by playing different acceleration pieces with different mana cost until you run out of steam to then come back for real.

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Originally Posted by aTn

Maybe I haven't tested him enough...

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Do test him though... you'll love him against Landstill (well, against non-Deed Landstill) and random board control decks while still being versatile (moreso than Armageddon imo) because he's a speed bumb against Combo.

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Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund:

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Originally Posted by aTn
Landstill builds are UWBg and run Pernicious Deeds...

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That's why you run 2-3 Pithing Needles main.

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I expected that one :wink: I totally agree with you about Needle; I've always run at least two maindeck and rarely regretted it for more that one match-up.

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Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund:

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Originally Posted by aTn
I find Gaddock nice against combo in theory. In practice there's always the possibility he'll get bounced or killed before your opponent casts Tendrils, EtW, Belcher, Dread Return, etc.

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That can be said of any hate.

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Well not for instants (e.g. Stifle) and EE (assuming you drop it the turn you'll activate it) :wink: For my build, EE takes care of EtW tokens (and possibly Stifle). I understand your points and I'll test Gaddock further...

If Angel Stacks, Landstill and other control deck grow in numbers (to answer the growth of aggro-control), then I guess Gaddock would be great.

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Originally Posted by throst54

So what were you boarding in the matchups?

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something like this (if you see any mistake in my boarding strats, pls tell me).

TES
-2x Mystic Enforcer
-4x Predict
-1x Ponder
-1x Portent
-1x Sword

+3x Gaddock Teeg
+2x Crypt
+4x Hydroblast

In the second game i thought he'll play Dark Confidants and kept 3x swords in the maindeck. After i didn't saw any Confidants in g2, i sided swords out an Ponder/Portent/Predict in again.

NQG/w Mirror
-2x Ponder
-1x Portent

+3 Krosan Grip

Baseruption
-3x Sensei's (so i can needle his sensei)
-3x Counterbalance (cannot counter his cc3 spells)

+3 Krosan Grip (against counterbalance, shackles, other evil things)
+3 Pithing Needle (against sensei's and shackles)

Goblins
-3x Sensei's (too slow)
-3x Counterbalance (real shit against gobs)
-1x Portent

+3x Needle (Vial, Wasteland, Siege Gang, sometimes Port)
+4x Hydroblast

Ichorid
-3x Sensei's
-3x Counterbalance
-1x Portent

+2x Crypt
+3x Gaddock Teeg (Dread Return, Breakthrough, Chumpblock)
+2x Krosan Grip (against Chalice@0)

Solidarity
-2x Mystic Enforcer
-4x Swords
-2x Engineered Explosives

+3x Gaddock Teeg (that was definitly a mistake when it came to the gamestate where i got 3x FoW and 3x blue cards in my hand. I think killing Turnabout and Flash of Insight is not worth killing your own FoW...)
+2x Crypt
+3x Needle (Fetchlands)

White Stax
-3x Sensei's
-3x Counterbalance
-1x Portent
-2x Ponder

+3x Krosan Grip
+3x Needle
+3x Gaddock Teeg (not sure about this one because it shuts off your FoW again)

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Originally Posted by throst54

How do you like the Needles in the SB instead of maindecked?

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well, look at my matchups.
I got 4x Matches where EE is better (TES, Mirror, Baseruption (can kill his cc3 stuff through a Counterbalance e.g. paying UUGW) and Ichorid) and 4x where Needle would be better (2x Goblins, Solidarity (NEEDLE FOR THE WIN!!) and Stax).

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Originally Posted by aTn

What was the Top8 of this event ?

Thanks for posting your results, hope you have a bit of time to write a report.

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Top8 out of 72 players after 8 rounds:
1. Belcher
2. Ichorid
3. 4c Landstill
4. unknown to me
5. White Stax
6. White Stax
7. Affinity
8. NQG/w

sorry, but i cannot remember enough details to write an interesting report :eek:

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Solidarity
-2x Mystic Enforcer

+2x Crypt
+3x Needle (Fetchlands)

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Why would you ever board Crypts against High Tide? Leave the Enforcers in. And I'm not sure Needles help that much against them. I remember somewhere reading to board in Hydroblasts, to keep the blue spells count higher.

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Originally Posted by PhanTom_lt

Why would you ever board Crypts against High Tide? Leave the Enforcers in. And I'm not sure Needles help that much against them. I remember somewhere reading to board in Hydroblasts, to keep the blue spells count higher.

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Crypts: when he plays Flash of Insight from hand (or if he got FoI in grave and not 2 mana open), especially during combo, i remove his grave i response
(seems better then playing swords, eh^^)
While Counterbalance+Sensei is on the table the Solidarity player is on short ressources (usually no high tide resolved), so this can fizzle him if you are lucky.

Enforcers: hm, i dont want to tap out at turn 4+ against soli. I need free mana to use sensei's as often as possible in his comboturn

Needles: yeah, they are not really good, but i think better then swords, explosives and hydroblast. If you can needle a fetchland he wants to use later, it can buy you a turn.

@Blaukreuz: Gratz to the good performance.

I was also there and went 0-2 drop. That was ludicrous... I got paired against GBw RecSur (negative MU anyways), but additionally, I got manaflooded like hell (drew 14 out of 17 Lands I think). And he topdecked his toolbox just like he needed. Goyf? Shriekmaw from the Top. Goyf number 2? Swords. Nimble Mongoose? Witness -> Deed.
Anyways, a bitter 2-0 loss.

But well, 1 Loss to a randomdeck is not tragic. But then I got paired against Peter which I met in Aschaffenburg before and I watched him playing Ichorid. So, a matchup I can't win since I left the Tormod's Crypts out and decided to play Jotun Grunts against the mirror. Game1 he goes for EOT-Discard with GGT, and dredges 3 Bridges on turn2. He then dredges 2 Narcomoebas and 2 Ichorids. I have Mongoose and Goyf and swing with both (BRAINFART -.-) and he chumps both with his Moebas. He gets 6 2/2 Tokens and removes his Bridges. Since I fetches twice before, he recurrs his 2 Ichorid and swings back for exactly 18 Hitpoints.

Game2 he has got the explosive thing with Land, LED; Breakthrough, but I force his LED and so I was not able to prevent the Breakthrough. (also a misplay. If you read my post in the Tournament Report section you will be able to guess why I made so many misplays).
So, after dredgeing a fuckton of cards, he gets 2 Moebas, Therapies and 2 Bridges and some otehr Ichorid and rapes me.

So, a lot of misfortune in the tournament, but a lot of luck at the GP at all, because I lost my binder and my deck, but got everything back and not 1 single card is missing. Phew.

Don't ever side out Top against Stax, if you can get one down before they get Chalice, you can win much more easily than without it.

I've been toying around with lists including AEther Vial in them, and this is the best thing to hit me:

Creatures: 14
Nimble Mongoose x4
Tarmogoyf x4
Medding Mage x4 (more on this later)
Mystic Enforcer x2

Cantrips: 11
Sensei'd Divining Top x3
Brainstorm x4
Ponder x4

Control: 11
Daze x4
Counterbalance x3
Force of Will x4

Removal: 4
Swords to Plowshares x4

Mana: 20
Aether Vial x4
Flooded Strand x4
Windswept Heath x3
Tropical Island x3
Tundra x3
Island x2
Plains x1

About the Meddling Mages... Mage on Goyf is always a good idea, possible here only because we have AEther Vial to get ours out under the Mage. Mage stops combo. Mage blocks removal. Mage stops Wrath O' God, stops Pernicious Deed, stops Back To Basics, stops whatever, and %90 of the time, you can name just about whatever you want without fear of nailing something important of yours. Also, the thought came to mind of Portent over Brainstorm and a Mage naming Brainstorm, but Everyone would just die if I posted that in the list. Just a concept.

Hey guys,

I was thinking about adding some Hoofprints to my build (for some reason i couldn't find the time to think about it before).

So I was wondering if any of you had some feedback on Hoofprints since it has first been mentioned (I believe it's been something like a month now). How has it fared in your experience these past weeks ? Is it still worth considering, and if it is, should it be as a 2-of, 3-of ?

Also, here's my current list :

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// Lands
    4 [ON] Flooded Strand
    2 [ON] Polluted Delta
    2 [ON] Windswept Heath
    3 [B] Tropical Island
    3 [B] Tundra
    2 [LND] Island (4)
    1 [PT] Forest (1)

// Creatures
    4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
    4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
    2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer

// Spells
    4 [AL] Force of Will
    4 [NE] Daze
    3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
    4 [IA] Brainstorm
    4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
    4 [LRW] Ponder
    3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
    4 [OD] Predict
    3 [CS] Counterbalance

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 [6E] Serenity
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

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(there's some affinity in my meta, hence the 3x Serenity in the board, and no goblins, hence the absence of hydroblasts)

If I were to add 2 Hoofprints, I'd probably cut 1 needle (but probably not more as I like the card's general awesome utility against any deck), and either 1 Mongoose, 1 Portent or 1 Predict (most likely the mongoose as in the end it's card that requires the most set up to be useful - i mean, it's the only card in the deck that is actually bad when i don't have threshold).

What do you guys think ? What would you cut, and what did you cut from your builds to make room for Hoofprints ? (if you still think this is a good move)

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Originally Posted by ParkerLewis

If I were to add 2 Hoofprints, I'd probably cut 1 needle (but probably not more as I like the card's general awesome utility against any deck), and either 1 Mongoose, 1 Portent or 1 Predict (most likely the mongoose as in the end it's card that requires the most set up to be useful - i mean, it's the only card in the deck that is actually bad when i don't have threshold).

What do you guys think ? What would you cut, and what did you cut from your builds to make room for Hoofprints ? (if you still think this is a good move)

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You might have a look at this list (left side). It worked very well for me so far:

http://www.trader-online.de/turniere...07-12-T15.html

The 3 Swords / 1 Threads decision is a personal thing. If you don't like it run 4 Swords (and argue about not having a totally random :3: cc slot for Counterbalance maindeck :cool: )

I rarely used Hoofprints during this tourney to be honest but its a hell of a threat for your opponent if you drop it early. He is forced to deal with it while you do all your other stuff. Sometimes I used it as bait for counters to push my Counterbalance through next turn and it worked great.

I cannot write more. Have to go to work now :frown:

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Originally Posted by Shugyosha

You might have a look at this list (left side). It worked very well for me so far:

http://www.trader-online.de/turniere...07-12-T15.html

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Congrats on the result :)

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Originally Posted by Shugyosha

I rarely used Hoofprints during this tourney to be honest but its a hell of a
threat for your opponent if you drop it early. He is forced to deal with it while you do all your other stuff. Sometimes I used it as bait for counters to push my Counterbalance through next turn and it worked great.

I cannot write more. Have to go to work now :frown:

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I noticed what you did was basically remove your Enforcers for it. Don't you miss them ? I mean, hoofprints are basically finishers too, but they need time to get active... Didn't you consider cutting 1 Mongoose (and one other card) to keep them maindeck ?

Maybe this will better explain my reasoning :

In the early game, I feel like I'd rather have in my hand
(>> meaning a much bigger gap than >)

(Hoofprints ~Tarmogoyf) >> Mongoose > Enforcer
(being that Mongoose is a harmless 1/1 at this point, and Enforcer can't be played, while this is where Hoofprints is a strong play)

In the mid-game
Tarmogoyf > (Enforcer ~ Hoofprints ~ Mongoose)

In the late game though
Enforcer > Tarmogoyf >> Mongoose >> Hoofprints

(being that Hoofprints is risky-slow at this point, and the Mongoose now is an acceptable play as an untargetable 3/3, while Enforcer plain rules as an immediate, powerful and evasive threat)

That's why I feel like if Hoofprints were to be added to the deck, and were to take a creature slot, then it should be in place of Mongeese (though i agree you probably shouldn't cut more than one) but not Enforcers, as you would lose too much of your late game topdecking power.

You got a interesting point ParkerLewis. The established Build runs...3 Needles, 3 Tops, 3 Counterbalances, 10 Critters, 9 Lands... 28 permanents. Not enough cantrips to get Threshold efficiently to deliver some serious Mungo-Beatz in die early- and midgame. Every permanent makes Mongoose worse.

That's why I was thinking about replacing Mongoose with Meddling Mages, so very oldschool. Talking about Oldschool, but the idea isn't THAT bad. I thought about a more oldschoolish list with Accumulated Knowledge, Shoals and Mental Notes, so more aggressive and faster, because Legacy also got faster. I ended up with this. But the list got ignored for not running Counterbalance. That's shows how much the people are caring about the thought behind this build and so on. But I will post it again. Maybe I'll run it on a upcoming event.

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [PT] Island (2)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tundra
4 [B] Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [NE] Accumulated Knowledge
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Ponder
2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
3 [JU] Mental Note
3 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [A] Armageddon
SB: 3 [SC] Stifle
SB: 3 [DK] Tivadar's Crusade

I think we can fix the problem with this build.

@Adan: why did you chose the Disruption Shoal's over, let's say, Counterspell? I don't see when Shoals would be better, because even though you can pitch a card to make it a mini-force, it has the same limits as Counterbalance with the drawback that it is a one shot deal for 2 cards. I would play CSpell in that slot.

I love the Accumulated Knowledge's. Are the 3 & 4 draws late game worth the loss of milling from Perdict? I ask not from a threshold building perspective, but from a card filtration perspective. I think the late-game massive card advantage is worth it, but I know some people that play Perdict over AK in non-thresh decks simply because it gets rid of trash.