[ATW] Landstill

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Not to back up Galeng or anything, but I sort of disagree with this to the extent that without significant draw, Landstill tends to lose its ability to win a long game against a lot of aggro or aggro-control decks that can gain real or virtual card advantage of their own through cards like Ringleader, Confidant, Counterbalance, or whatever the case may be.

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All control decks needs to refill becuase thats how you win the long game. Gaining more answers than they can threats while promoting your own gameplan. Basically I am sayin I agree with taco even though I haven't played Landstill since URW was the version of choice. The basic theology is still the same. Besides how can you argue with taco on any landstill discussion when he is a landstill master. If he plays Fact you should too, unless something new comes out, then test it and then consult w/ taco. Hehe

Heres my list I used last night in a 10 man tourny.



land:
4 tropical island
4 underground sea
3 tundra
4 polluted delta
4 mishra's factory
3 flooded strand
1 nantuko monestary(don't ask, was supposed to be a breeding pool)

counter:
4 force of will
4 counterspell
3 stifle

draw:
4 brainstorm
4 standstill
2 fact or fiction

removal:
4 swords to plowshares

mass removal:
4 pernicious deed
2 engineered explosives

creature:
4 tarmogoyf
2 garruk wildspeaker

sideboard:
2 extirpate
2 meddling mage
2 engineered plague
2 krosan grip
3 blue elemental blast
2 trickbind
2 diabolic edict

before I start rambling on how the deck performed, the monestary will be a breeding pool once I pick one up. and the sideboard is completely not what I wanted but that is what I had for it right now and I'm waiting for some things in the mail. Here is the sideboard I will use once it is finished

sideboard:
4 extirpate
4 meddling mage
2 krosan grip
2 trickbind
3 blue elemental blast

I went 3-1 in the tourny, and then lost in the semi's. Sorry but this won't be an extensive report but it does help. Next week ill write down notes so I can give a better report.

first game was against, nick who was playing belcher, I beat him 2-0, first game, he had to mull to 5 and couldn't get close to going off, then second game, I had trickbind and krosan grip waiting.
1-0
second match was against a kid who played a rogue deck that was a red aggro deck with red creatures I've never heard before. easy 2-0
2-0
third match was against wiley with RBWG aggro deck with jotun grunt instead of tarmogoyf, but the normal burn,confidant, lions,and the ape.
first game went smooth with me dropping garruk for the win, (while not seeing a single tarmogoyf.)
second game, I saw 2 tarmogoyfs, but no counter and only 1 stp for removal, didnt go well and lost.
third game, I start with stifle on fetch then drop standstill turn two with a garruk on turn 4 backed up with another standstill. Had game in the bag.
3-0
last reg game was against gruber with black disruption with goyf.
well this was a strange game, first game I just walk through him no prob. then second game, he starts with a thoughtseize, then next turn drops wasteland and a duress, third turn he plays dark rit with hymn and thoughtseize, then i finally get 2 land and drop a standstill(now having no cards in hand) he plays duress taking out my deed( the other 2 cards were lands) it didnt work out to well.
third game, this game was very interesting, the game started out with a fight, I wasnt drawing any counterspell, but drew every deed and every stp, like 5 turn i got 2 factories, and played a gurruk. then he plays a pithing needle, naming garruk, then plays another needle, naming deed, he ends turn(with me having 2 deeds in hand) then i pretty much say go, then he plays another needle naming factory, this is when I was thinking of just scooping, but then remembered that I changed my list to have explosives, soo I'm fighting off everything he plays with edicts, extirpates, and swords, and he finally is able to stick a nantuko shade with me having 6 cards left in my library, (still didnt draw an explosives)he attacks for 12, I draw a tarmogoyf, he smothers, then attacks again, and i'm down to 1 then I draw a force of will and lose( my last four cards were in order, explosives, tarmogoyf, explosives, nantuko monestary) I had all 4 mishra's factory's out and a gurruk with over run ready, I could have killed in one hit if I could have drawn an explosives.
3-1
was in first place for playoffs out of top 4 thats when I play gus with tes
first game, I destroy with stifle, second game he had chant on third turn, and I didnt get a force, and ran out of mana to cast stifle after countering. third game he goes off on like turn 8 when he is almost dead, I got 1 force, 1 deed, 1 explosives, and 1 trickbind. he plays chant, I counter, he pyroblasts and then wins.



Srry bardo, accidently pressed wrong button and saved it, soo here you go, this is my finished post

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Originally Posted by blac198990

the monestary will be a breeding pool once I pick one up.

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I'm no expert on Landstill, but I thought Monastery was a very good man land. It's a 4/4 First Strike. Other then that, you only have Factories in terms of man lands. Am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by Sanguine Voyeur

I'm no expert on Landstill, but I thought Monastery was a very good man land. It's a 4/4 First Strike. Other then that, you only have Factories in terms of man lands. Am I missing something?

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I dont play a normal, landstill deck like others with lots of manlands, I chose to play with tarmogoyf, and garruk which is better than all of the manlands. and I need extra green.

I like your list blac198990, I was testing something fairly similar with the heavy green splash for Garruk.

My list was rolling:
-4 Goyfs
-3 Stifle
-2 EE

+3 Sensei's Top
+2 Spell Snare
+2 Crucible of World
+2 Krosan Grip (Though EE could definitely be the right call for this spot)

I really like Sensei's Top it gives you one more edge under a Standstill, if you can guarantee land drops. Additionally it can combo with uncracked Fetches in play to "Lim'Dul's Vault" your top 3 when your opponent Ancestrals targeting you. It keeps the theme of the deck being immune to standard removal, and has synergy with Deed as it can be safely placed in top deck when removal is used.

Crucible still is useful with fetches and deck thinning, without Tarmogoyfs, the need for reusing Mishra's Factory is a bit more in demand.

Spell Snare vs. Stifle and Grip vs. EE is mostly what you would be expecting to face, in expectation of alot of Countertop Thresh, I thought Spell Snares and Grips MD might be more helpful, though with more thought, EE still probably wins out over Grip.

Just some thoughts.

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Originally Posted by blac198990

creature:
4 tarmogoyf

first game went smooth with me dropping garruk for the win, (while not seeing a single tarmogoyf.)

second game, I saw 2 tarmogoyfs, but no counter and only 1 stp for removal, didnt go well and lost.

third game, I start with stifle on fetch then drop standstill turn two with a garruk on turn 4 backed up with another standstill. Had game in the bag.

(still didnt draw an explosives)he attacks for 12, I draw a tarmogoyf, he smothers

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Despite the fact that you seem to be one of the chief proponents of Tarmogoyf in Landstill, I submit your own report as evidence that Tarmogoyf is terrible in this deck (while Garruk is still awesome.)

Example 1, you won without it just fine.

Example 2, you lost because of it.

Example 3, you won without it just fine.

Example 4, you may have lost because of it, because it could have been another better card at this point, rather than an enabler to your opponent's Smother.

your going off one match that tarmogoyf is bad, if you want to do that, then lets take out stp because it sucks in combo matchups, or lets take out standstill because it is worthless against 42land.dec, or hey maybe you should read the whole post instead of cutting 90% of mine when out of my 12 matches I won 8 and lost 4 and that out of the eight 6 of them were won with goyf, and only 2 were with garruk, and that against combo you take out garruk, because he is too slow, and your usually dead by 4 mana. You are basing your opinion on only reading what you want to read, I just got unlucky one match because I couldnt draw ony of my
4 deeds
4 swords to plowshares
2 engineered explosives

to get rid of jotun grunt, it was just bad luck, that is the reason you play best of 3.

and for the last line, what in its place could have won me the game??? any more draw would have decked me and if it wasnt a creature, the smother would have been for my mishra's factories which would have lost me the game anywaze. The last game was a total fluke to having both of my explosives in the last 4 cards and that he was able to draw all 3 of his needles in a row.

Your just one of those goyf haters, thats all, if you dont like it, then don't run it, but its your loss that your not playing the card that changed all of magic(goblins are not top deck because of goyf in threshold, vintage now has aggro decks, and practically every type 2 deck has green.) [Snip. Not so snarky. - Bardo]

All I can say to try to prove to you goyf is good is that, before I played goyf, I had horrible matchups against, 42 land.dec, burn aggro decks, and black disruptions decks(which is the average horrible matchups against landstill) and now I havnt lost a match against 42 land, or burn aggro decks, and the black disruption deck should have been mine, but I cant win them all.

Why exactly are you such a big proponent of Goyf? If it's as widespread as you say (which it is) it just stalls and causes card disadvantage when you Deed/Wrath/Explosives. Oh, and if you're decking because of card drawing....you're probably not playing Landstill correctly. Garruk I think is a decent fit in Landstill because it wants to make the opponent lose the game as opposed to outright winning.

That second game was wild, I D.Returns into 18 goblins (UGH, I hate having to resort to ETW) you just needed that G/B for deed.
But you gotta admit, I mull to 6 and my hand against you was ... Xantid, Chant, Pyroblast, LED, Chrome Mox, and City of Brass ... it doesn't get much better than that for me.

But as far as Tarmogoyf in Landstill goes, the whole point is a threat you don't have to keep paying for each turn.
I think it is a bad idea in a control deck like Landstill if you neglect to include him.

He really helps you hold up your game in the aggro/combo matchup.
He puts a clock on combo like no other and against combo you have to keep your Stifle/Trickbind/CSpell mana up.

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Originally Posted by HSCK

Why exactly are you such a big proponent of Goyf? If it's as widespread as you say (which it is) it just stalls and causes card disadvantage when you Deed/Wrath/Explosives. Oh, and if you're decking because of card drawing....you're probably not playing Landstill correctly. Garruk I think is a decent fit in Landstill because it wants to make the opponent lose the game as opposed to outright winning.

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Pls read the post before you talk, everyone needs to realize that old school landstill isn't good enough anymore and need to find new ways to help it, I have found goyf. You on the other hand is still ignorant to try and play it, and if you actually read how the match was going, I was using every search and thinning I could so I could get to explosives, 7 fetchs, 4 standstills, 4 brainstorms, 2 facts and a naturally long game can get you decked if the 2 cards you need to win the match are in the last 4

and thank you yawg
that game was just crap, my chances of beating a hand like yours is impossible. I would have had 2 forces, 2 other blue cards and a stifle, which in a 4c build is practically impossible when I already used 1 force and a blue card to stop xantid. I dont think any deck can beat that hand, just impossible.

atleast our matches are always interesting and fun

You're going to need to improve your grammar, spelling and punctuation on this site and especially in this forum. - Bardo

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Originally Posted by yawg07

But as far as Tarmogoyf in Landstill goes, the whole point is a threat you don't have to keep paying for each turn.
I think it is a bad idea in a control deck like Landstill if you neglect to include him.

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A pair of Garruk does this fine though, either by untapping manlands after they swing or by generating a token. Garruk protects itself to a degree from attackers by being able to create a blocker. It doesn't create card disadvantage to your Deed/Wrath. It doesn't give you're opponent's Swords/Smothers/Shreikmaws 1 for 1 trade targets.

I don't see how a vanilla power/toughness creature helps the Landstill player establish card advantage if anything you lose card advantage by sweeping your creature or opening up to 2 for 1s with Shreikmaw. The deck has access to control cards with better synergy than Goyf for drawing the game into the later stages at which point a few bombs are enough to secure victory.

@blac: Old school Landstill? You mean the Wildspeaker 4C that I prefer, that's not old school at all, that's playing smart. And if you're running Goys, Manlands, and Garruk you shouldn't be short on kill conditions with all that card drawing and control...UNLESS you cut control elements and blow up your win conditions...but Goyf is invulnerable to Deed right? ;)

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Originally Posted by blac198990

Pls read the post before you talk, everyone needs to realize that old school landstill isn't good enough anymore and need to find new ways to help it

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I'm sorry, but you aren't the end-all expert on Landstill. I'm 35-0-1 in tournaments (23-0-1 Sanctioned) with my build/builds, none of which include Tarmogoyf. Insinuating that my 4C builds 'aren't good enough' anymore is just plain wrong. Furthermore, from the looks of all the posts, I'd say everyone did just fine at reading posts.

My points actually covered two of your three matches, not one. The first three from your third match and the last from your fourth. As for your other two matches, Tarmogoyf isn't much of a difference maker in the Belcher matchup. It might provide a clock, but it's replacing cards like Snare and Stifle that actually stop them from comboing off in the first place. So this, in my opinion, balances itself out. And against the janky red deck, alright, it might have made a difference (You didn't specify if it did or not.) But seriously hardcore janky red decks don't define Legacy.

Garruk Wildspeaker is far far stronger than Goyf. It provides recurring threats and additional mana and is immune to most standard forms of removal.

While I haven't tested Garruk yet, I can vouch for Goyfs inclusion 100%.

Sure, he dies to your own Deed/EE (I run a 3/3 split specifically for the whole Needle/Mage situation.), but chances are if there's something on the field that is scary enough for me to have to sweep and lose him as well, it's probably scary enough to outweigh the loss as long as it's gone. He pretty much handles everything else by himself.
I play Goyf early against Goblins, and if they can create an army that's too big, I'm glad to lose him to see all of them gone, he's already done his job. Then the next Goyf can beat down after I clear and drop a Standstill.
He's a very versatile tool. Even if he is just a big vanilla creature, he fills the role of kill condition, stall, removal, bait, and overall pressure.
I can't count the number of games against combo that I've won after stopping the combo and dropping him, that I would have lost without him. Against aggro I see no problem, he blocks and beats. Against control (assuming you can resolve him), he's an instant </=4 turn clock, that they must respond to, through your counter magic.
I can't see what I could replace him with to fill all of those roles, and at such a cheap cost.

Hey, I've been working on my landstill deck for a while and i was just wondering if using enlightened tutor in my u/w landstill would be a good idea or not. Any thoughts or comments?

Ive been playing him (goyf) in my UBRG landstill and he works extremely well there. He improves my goblins matchup and that was my worst matchup and he has great synergie with the rest of my deck.

Here is my decklist for refrence.
Its kinda my petdeck and ive been getting some great result with it.

4x Brainstorm
3x Smother
2x Extirpate
3x Burning Wish
4x Counterspell
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Standstill
4x Force of Will
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Garruk wildspeaker
2x Shriekmaw
3x Tarmagoyf

land:

4x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded strand
3x Wasteland
3x Underground Sea
4x Tropial Island
3x Volcanic Island
1x Volrath's stronghold
4x Mishra's Factory
1x bayou

Sideboard:
1x call of the herd
1x Hull breach
1x Pyroclasm
1x Damnation
1x Haunting Echoes
1x Rude Awakening
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Shattering Spree
1x extirpate
3x tormods crypt
3x toughtseize

I change it weekly so there are still some flaws in the manabase but the maindeck is quite ok like it is now.

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Originally Posted by nightbringer

Ive been playing him (goyf) in my UBRG landstill and he works extremely well there. He improves my goblins matchup and that was my worst matchup and he has great synergie with the rest of my deck.

Here is my decklist for refrence.
Its kinda my petdeck and ive been getting some great result with it.

4x Brainstorm
3x Smother
2x Extirpate
3x Burning Wish
4x Counterspell
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Standstill
4x Force of Will
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Garruk wildspeaker
2x Shriekmaw
3x Tarmagoyf

land:

4x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded strand
3x Wasteland
3x Underground Sea
4x Tropial Island
3x Volcanic Island
1x Volrath's stronghold
4x Mishra's Factory
1x bayou

Sideboard:
1x call of the herd
1x Hull breach
1x Pyroclasm
1x Damnation
1x Haunting Echoes
1x Rude Awakening
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Shattering Spree
1x extirpate
3x tormods crypt
3x toughtseize

I change it weekly so there are still some flaws in the manabase but the maindeck is quite ok like it is now.

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I like the decklist, how do you like the mainboard extirpates, If Ive ever low on some cards like when I was looking for garruk to put in or when I for some odd reason didnt have my facts I put in extirpates in md for the spots, and It was an amazing card, and I wish I could find a maindeck spot for them.

Also how is the burning wish working, this is the first list that Ive heard anyone use burning wish, and after looking at your list theres alot of stuff you can find.

I would love to hear a tourny report on some of your matches.

Hey taco, I guess I do know what I'm talking about.

Berzerked, your completly right, without goyf, the goblins matchup is really hard( and taco don't say it isn't just to be ignorant) and without him against combo, you have to fight to get a good hand again because they can go off again before the factories get the job done, the card is good in any matchup,
its a blocker, a clock, and if they waste removal for it then cool you got garruk and factories too, if the card was soo powerful to not get removed then the card would not have been made or would have been banned. It's quite funny when taco says that tarmogoyf is just removal bait when factories and monestary are actually easier to kill(wasteland pithing needle )

To burr, many people have tried it with some success, I havn't tried it personally so I couldn't give you real evidence, but I think the main reason why its not used is for the fact that it only goes for 2 cards( althou deed and standstill are really really good cards) and you lose a draw by doing it. And just dont play it against any threshold deck that has predict. If you think it could work, try it out, post a list up here and we can help you with it and see if we can get it to work.

taco, i'm not gonna argue with you about this because it just gonna get us in trouble with bardo, but I will say this, that janky red deck is a huge prominent deck in the meta right now, your meta might not have it but a meta in whole has tons of them, and stop hating goyf, goyf shines its best in 2 matchups, goblins, threshold. I shouldn't need to say more.

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Originally Posted by blac198990

goyf shines its best in 2 matchups, goblins, threshold. I shouldn't need to say more.

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I understand Goy's ability to 2 for 1 or even 3 for 1 goblins, but shouldn't you already be able to beat Thresh without him? For the 4-c versions, Deed (and sometimes Engineered Explosives) wipes out their entire board and gets around Counterbalance, and Engineered Explosives and Wrath (for the most part) also get around Counterbalance. I usually don't have problems with ugr or ugw thresh*, even with a straight uw landstill build, and when black and green are added more cards that are great against thresh can be played, (like Deed, sb Grip and Extirpate) which seem to make the match up even better.

*I haven't played against the straight ug, and the versions with Wasteland, Stifle, Thoughtseize, and Extirpate have been giving me fits lately.

On the subject of Crucible (or Loam, like some prefer) , I think that it may needed to be discussed again. I've been finding it very useful even without Wasteland md. It improves future Brainstorms by allowing you to dig for business and not land drops, and fetching several more times allows for larger Decrees (in the heavy white versions). Recurring Factories against aggro is pretty good, and is awesome against most forms of control. Obviously Swords and Extirpate are played in most control decks and these stop recurring Factories, but even fetching 3-4 times more over the course of the game is very powerful in the control matchups. Crucible is also pretty good against Loam varients and Pox-style decks.

Enlightened tutor seems interesting. I've been messing around with a UWg list with Hoofprints of the Stag, Sylvan Library, and 1 Moat, and it seems decent. Being able to pump out a 4/4 flyer about every turn with Library+Brainstorm or Standstill is pretty powerful. Enlightened Tutor with Top/Counterbalance is pretty good, but I haven't played enough to see if it helps enough in problem matchups (except for burn, which it's really strong against), or ones where landstill is already favored.

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Originally Posted by Shawn

I understand Goy's ability to 2 for 1 or even 3 for 1 goblins, but shouldn't you already be able to beat Thresh without him? For the 4-c versions, Deed (and sometimes Engineered Explosives) wipes out their entire board and gets around Counterbalance, and Engineered Explosives and Wrath (for the most part) also get around Counterbalance. I usually don't have problems with ugr or ugw thresh*, even with a straight uw landstill build, and when black and green are added more cards that are great against thresh can be played, (like Deed, sb Grip and Extirpate) which seem to make the match up even better.

*I haven't played against the straight ug, and the versions with Wasteland, Stifle, Thoughtseize, and Extirpate have been giving me fits lately.

On the subject of Crucible (or Loam, like some prefer) , I think that it may needed to be discussed again. I've been finding it very useful even without Wasteland md. It improves future Brainstorms by allowing you to dig for business and not land drops, and fetching several more times allows for larger Decrees (in the heavy white versions). Recurring Factories against aggro is pretty good, and is awesome against most forms of control. Obviously Swords and Extirpate are played in most control decks and these stop recurring Factories, but even fetching 3-4 times more over the course of the game is very powerful in the control matchups. Crucible is also pretty good against Loam varients and Pox-style decks.

Enlightened tutor seems interesting. I've been messing around with a UWg list with Hoofprints of the Stag, Sylvan Library, and 1 Moat, and it seems decent. Being able to pump out a 4/4 flyer about every turn with Library+Brainstorm or Standstill is pretty powerful. Enlightened Tutor with Top/Counterbalance is pretty good, but I haven't played enough to see if it helps enough in problem matchups (except for burn, which it's really strong against), or ones where landstill is already favored.

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The one thing that I have found about threshold matchups, are the fact that tye have more draw and counter, which makes it harder to drop down certian things like deed, plus if it is a good threshold player, and they know your playing landstill, they arnt gonna over extend with creatures so when you deed they can restock, but by playing that 1 tarmogoyf, it forces them to over extend to try and do damage, which is one of those times, its worth it to blow up the tarmogoyf, because your opponant is losing alot worse, before tarmogoyf, I would say that landstill has at the most a 60/40 match preboard against the 3c builds(have not faced 2c to know) and after board, it gets harder, but with goyf, the matchup becomes 70/30 even after board.

Don't forget that Enlightened Tutor also fetches up E.Explosives/Top/Sylvan :cool: