Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nickrit2000
If you think its good deckbuilding to be playing both burning wish and mystical tutor in the same deck that already runs infernal tutor, then you need to revaluate your deck building skills.
Then how do you explain the Okayama side event results? Both winning storm combo lists played 4 Mystical Tutor and an assortment of Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor. Their success was not a fluke. Explain why running all of those cards together is bad in theory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nickrit2000
Mystical tutor is card disadvantage and there is no reason to play it if your already running burning wish and infernal tutor in the deck. You would be better suited to be running more rituals/protection spells in that spot instead of getting cute with all the one ofs which burning wish solves.
What are you trying to say here? Are you implying that since both Mystical Tutor and Burning Wish can search for answers, and because Burning Wish isn't card disadvantage, that Burning Wish just does the job better? I know that Mystical Tutor is card disadvantage, but it is almost always used to settup the next turn win. How relevant is that one card advantage when your opponent searches for and casts Ad Nauseam on his second turn. AdN changes the viability of Mystical Tutor. Especially when you're lowering the Ad Nauseam count to 2. Burning Wish will never fetch AdN, and always costs one more to search for an answer at sorcery speed. You will often need the card to use with LED and won't be able to use it for an answer without slowing yourself down alot. That's not strictly better. Infernal Tutor serves a very different purpose than Mystical, and moderately different purpose than Burning Wish. Infernal Tutor is almost always used in conjunction with LED and very rarely used before comboing as a settup spell.
I just don't see the negative synergy in playing those cards together. Mystical Tutor is inherantly a bad card, but AdN changes the name of the game. It's Vampiric Tutor for the card that you're most likely to want to see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nickrit2000
It just boggles my mind why so many players think mystical tutor is good and worth playing. Unless your not playing red for burning wish, mystical tutor shouldn't even be considered.
While I agree that Burning Wish is necessary, I still don't see why they can't be played together. You make it sound like they're grossly incompatable when that's just not the case. It should really be a debate between Ponder and Mystical rather than Burning Wish and Mystical.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I don't like Mystical Tutor in TES either, but seriously, the card giving carddisadvantage should never be an argument for a combo deck. Your entire deck consists of carddisadvantage, and you still win. You usually have an advantage, because your opponent will always be forced to try to stop you. Probably only a few cards in his deck can do that, and thus you start out with huge virtual cardadvantage, which only exists because your deck is so damn fast.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
I don't like Mystical Tutor in TES either, but seriously, the card giving carddisadvantage should never be an argument for a combo deck. Your entire deck consists of carddisadvantage, and you still win. You usually have an advantage, because your opponent will always be forced to try to stop you. Probably only a few cards in his deck can do that, and thus you start out with huge virtual cardadvantage, which only exists because your deck is so damn fast.
I should have been more clear. I agree that Mystical Tutor shouldn't be in TES. I think Ponder is better for this deck, but I do think that Mystical Tutor has merit in the Japanese lists, and shouldn't be discounted based on past experiences with different decks.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
troopatroop
Then how do you explain the Okayama side event results? Both winning storm combo lists played 4 Mystical Tutor and an assortment of Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor. Their success was not a fluke. Explain why running all of those cards together is bad in theory.
Different Metagames and the power of one card. Mystical tutor didn't carry their records into top 8. It was Ad Nauseum. Their decks were poorly built with Mox Diamond and no Ill-Gotten Gains. Mox Diamond is a terrible card to open hand and they don't have a back-up plan. Also, this isn't including running bad maindeck cards like Ancient Grudge. 13 lands is also a bit high. The lack of Ponder also bothers me not being able to find LED, the most broken card in the deck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
troopatroop
What are you trying to say here? Are you implying that since both Mystical Tutor and Burning Wish can search for answers, and because Burning Wish isn't card disadvantage, that Burning Wish just does the job better? I know that Mystical Tutor is card disadvantage, but it is almost always used to settup the next turn win. How relevant is that one card advantage when your opponent searches for and casts Ad Nauseam on his second turn. AdN changes the viability of Mystical Tutor. Especially when you're lowering the Ad Nauseam count to 2. Burning Wish will never fetch AdN, and always costs one more to search for an answer at sorcery speed. You will often need the card to use with LED and won't be able to use it for an answer without slowing yourself down alot. That's not strictly better. Infernal Tutor serves a very different purpose than Mystical, and moderately different purpose than Burning Wish. Infernal Tutor is almost always used in conjunction with LED and very rarely used before comboing as a settup spell.
You were correct with your first statement. Card advantage/disadvantage is important. Running too many cards that create card disadvantage will only crumble you into a hole. Not including the fact that Mystical tutor takes time slowing down the deck. Mystical tutor doesn't find lands and artifacts, artifacts being Lion's eye Diamond. The deck doesn't have to find Ad Nauseum when built properly. Running all these tutors will just clunk your draws and make decent hands unplayable. You don't need Burning Wish to get Ad Nauseum, Ill-Gotten Gains and Diminishing Returns will get the job done. Having versatility and flexibility is important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
troopatroop
I just don't see the negative synergy in playing those cards together. Mystical Tutor is inherantly a bad card, but AdN changes the name of the game. It's Vampiric Tutor for the card that you're most likely to want to see.
How is this true? Mystical Tutor's card disadvantage isn't made up for by Ad Nauseum. Mystical is terrible after Nauseum because you already have what you need, then need another card to draw it. Which must have been hard for them because they weren't playing Ponder. Playing Chrome Mox and Mystical Tutor in the same deck is awful, it just digs you into a deep hole. It's hard to come back with combo once you're down. Burning Wish fulfills all the same roles that Mystical does while putting the card to your hand, you also won't have to run cards like echoing truth and Ancient Grudge maindeck. It's nothing like Vamp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
troopatroop
While I agree that Burning Wish is necessary, I still don't see why they can't be played together. You make it sound like they're grossly incompatable when that's just not the case. It should really be a debate between Ponder and Mystical rather than Burning Wish and Mystical.
It's redundancy, why play two cards that fill the exact same role when you only need to play one? Ponder over Mystical isn't arguable in my eyes. I've already comment on this topic.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I took TES to a tournament a week or so ago and only lost to Dreadstill. (epic games). (EDIT: pun not intended)
The deck was awesome, and the only thing I was left wanting was the 4th Ponder. (basically for the reasons Bryant already stated, and it finds the other stuff really well too.)
Is the 8th cantrip pushing it already? A Mox seems like the most expendable slot (SSG was also a little clunky the whole day, mostly pitching to mox and sitting in the sb).
I could also see the 3rd Duress important, I seem to end up with hands that need a mana source/a black card for mox to win quite often. And I really hate passing the turn :D
(not too keen on mystical either, though I really like it in ANT but that deck is a "one trick pony" where you can do majillion tricks with TES)
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Different Metagames and the power of one card. Mystical tutor didn't carry their records into top 8. It was Ad Nauseum. Their decks were poorly built with Mox Diamond and no Ill-Gotten Gains. Mox Diamond is a terrible card to open hand and they don't have a back-up plan. Also, this isn't including running bad maindeck cards like Ancient Grudge. 13 lands is also a bit high. The lack of Ponder also bothers me not being able to find LED, the most broken card in the deck.
They also didn't play Tendrils MD. Weird huh? Mox Diamond isn't always a dead card. It basically is in TES, but with 3 more lands, it can sometimes be an acceleration piece. It's basically just fantastic after AdN, and that's probably why they chose to run it. He has 10 0cc mana producers so he'll never fizzle after AdN. Ancient Grudge or Echoing truth can be cut from the list with little consequence, and that's not even the winning list. 13 lands has been awesome for me. I always want multiple lands. I draw no land hands alot with only 10.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
You were correct with your first statement. Card advantage/disadvantage is important. Running too many cards that create card disadvantage will only crumble you into a hole. Not including the fact that Mystical tutor takes time slowing down the deck. Mystical tutor doesn't find lands and artifacts, artifacts being Lion's eye Diamond. The deck doesn't have to find Ad Nauseum when built properly. Running all these tutors will just clunk your draws and make decent hands unplayable. You don't need Burning Wish to get Ad Nauseum, Ill-Gotten Gains and Diminishing Returns will get the job done. Having versatility and flexibility is important.
Yes, playing too much card disadvantage is bad in theory, but Bahamuth said it well enough. You lose a draw step, but if you're attempting to draw a million cards right after, how relevant is it?
The deck played 9 Tutors with 4 Mystical. You play 8 in TES. Multiple Infernals is a usually worse than a spread of different tutors in hand, unless you're comfortable casting one for an acceleration piece.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
How is this true? Mystical Tutor's card disadvantage isn't made up for by Ad Nauseum. Mystical is terrible after Nauseum because you already have what you need, then need another card to draw it. Which must have been hard for them because they weren't playing Ponder. Playing Chrome Mox and Mystical Tutor in the same deck is awful, it just digs you into a deep hole. It's hard to come back with combo once you're down. Burning Wish fulfills all the same roles that Mystical does while putting the card to your hand, you also won't have to run cards like echoing truth and Ancient Grudge maindeck. It's nothing like Vamp.
I personally don't care if my cards are bad after AdN. At that point I've either won the game or gotten unlucky. Sometimes Chrome Mox and Mystical Tutor can put you too deep. This is true, but I wouldn't think about running less than 4 Chrome Mox because I always want to be able to win after AdN. They won't always be drawn together and when they are they won't always lose it for you. I had a hand that won turn 2 and casted both those cards just a couple minutes ago. If you open both of them, then imprinting the Mystical is fine too. Playing Mystical doesn't lock you into playing those two singletons if you don't want to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
It's redundancy, why play two cards that fill the exact same role when you only need to play one? Ponder over Mystical isn't arguable in my eyes. I've already comment on this topic.
But they don't fill the exact same role, and I've already said that Ponder is better in this deck. Those builds are very different. They are completely reliant on playing and resolving Ad Nauseam. They don't even play IGG or Tendrils maindeck, although the winning list played them both in the board. My entire point is that Mystical Tutor makes those decks alot better, and judging by how well they did, and how different their lists are, shouldn't we at least consider the possibility that they're doing something right? What about the manabases? Don't those seem better than running Orchard or Undiscovered Paradise?
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
troopatroop
They also didn't play Tendrils MD. Weird huh? Mox Diamond isn't always a dead card. It basically is in TES, but with 3 more lands, it can sometimes be an acceleration piece. It's basically just fantastic after AdN, and that's probably why they chose to run it. He has 10 0cc mana producers so he'll never fizzle after AdN. Ancient Grudge or Echoing truth can be cut from the list with little consequence, and that's not even the winning list. 13 lands has been awesome for me. I always want multiple lands. I draw no land hands alot with only 10.
You're just proving why thier lists were bad. No Tendrils maindeck? Seriously? I can't believe I missed this. Even with 13 lands it's still not enough to support Mox Diamond. Not to mention, if it gets blown up it's a 2 for 1. Even if either deck doesn't win after Ad Nauseum turn 1, they still have turn 2 when they had 30 cards in their hand the previous turn. It's basically guaranteed victory. Therefor, the Mox isn't that big of an improvement if an improvement at all in their list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
troopatroop
Yes, playing too much card disadvantage is bad in theory, but Bahamuth said it well enough. You lose a draw step, but if you're attempting to draw a million cards right after, how relevant is it?
The deck played 9 Tutors with 4 Mystical. You play 8 in TES. Multiple Infernals is a usually worse than a spread of different tutors in hand, unless you're comfortable casting one for an acceleration piece.
Attempting is the key word there. Decks get stopped all the time and if you get stopped after Mystical it's a lot worse than after a Ponder or Burning Wish. No Card disadvantage with Burning Wish or with Ponder you can set yourself up for insurance if you do manage to get stopped. So, it's very relevant. I'll cast an Infernal Tutor for a 2nd LED all day long, in fact it's one of my most common plays.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
troopatroop
I personally don't care if my cards are bad after AdN. At that point I've either won the game or gotten unlucky. Sometimes Chrome Mox and Mystical Tutor can put you too deep. This is true, but I wouldn't think about running less than 4 Chrome Mox because I always want to be able to win after AdN. They won't always be drawn together and when they are they won't always lose it for you. I had a hand that won turn 2 and casted both those cards just a couple minutes ago. If you open both of them, then imprinting the Mystical is fine too. Playing Mystical doesn't lock you into playing those two singletons if you don't want to.
They won't always lose you the game or be bad together, but more often than not they will be. That's not a risk I'm willing to take and most of us care what our hands look like after an Ad Nauseum. We want to win the game fast an efficiently. You've also ignored the largest argument against Mystical which is it you either need to cast a draw spell + have mana to play the spell or wait. Both options are sub-optimal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
troopatroop
But they don't fill the exact same role, and I've already said that Ponder is better in this deck. Those builds are very different. They are completely reliant on playing and resolving Ad Nauseam. They don't even play IGG or Tendrils maindeck, although the winning list played them both in the board. My entire point is that Mystical Tutor makes those decks alot better, and judging by how well they did, and how different their lists are, shouldn't we at least consider the possibility that they're doing something right? What about the manabases? Don't those seem better than running Orchard or Undiscovered Paradise?
How not? Mystical and Burning Wish certainly fill the same role. Finding answers and Bombs (Tendrils, Storm Engines). As for the manabases, 13 lands seems terrible to me. I've tested duals every now and again, with lists being all duals, and partial duals. The main argument is that they don't cast important cards in the deck such as Orim's Chant. Sometimes you're on one land and need W for Chant.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
How not? Mystical and Burning Wish certainly fill the same role. Finding answers and Bombs (Tendrils, Storm Engines).
I believe he was talking about how some instants answer some things better than sorceries. Mystical will find everything Wish can, with the condition that it's in your library. The role is certainly the same, but the strength of the card it can fetch is stronger with Mystical; at least equal, but never weaker.
I must say, though, that TES without Mystical seems a much more reasonable choice, because of the speed it can offer in a goldfish or in a 1-protected win, which is most of the times enough.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
You're just proving why thier lists were bad. No Tendrils maindeck? Seriously? I can't believe I missed this. Even with 13 lands it's still not enough to support Mox Diamond. Not to mention, if it gets blown up it's a 2 for 1. Even if either deck doesn't win after Ad Nauseum turn 1, they still have turn 2 when they had 30 cards in their hand the previous turn. It's basically guaranteed victory. Therefor, the Mox isn't that big of an improvement if an improvement at all in their list.
I don't see a reason to play mainboard Tendrils at all. The deck only played 2 Infernal Tutors, and with the Mysticals, it functions perfectly fine. You don't even give any arguments at all for why to play Tendrils main. I'm sure you can see the advantages, the main one being it reduces your average casting cost, which is a really mayor factor.
I agree with you on Diamond. The card will very often be dead when drawn, which is enough reason not to play it. I'd play SSG over it, but the deck doesn't really need either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Attempting is the key word there. Decks get stopped all the time and if you get stopped after Mystical it's a lot worse than after a Ponder or Burning Wish. No Card disadvantage with Burning Wish or with Ponder you can set yourself up for insurance if you do manage to get stopped. So, it's very relevant. I'll cast an Infernal Tutor for a 2nd LED all day long, in fact it's one of my most common plays.
This is just weird....
By stopped, I can think of 2 popular ways: discard and couters. As far as I know, discard is exactly the kind of hate Mystical is good against. The counters are another story, but I'm sure you know just as well that usually only the Tutor/AdN will be countered (with the exception of CB, which will usually mean you've lost anyway), thus making sure you're left with 0-1 cards in your hand anyway. Again, your deck is full of carddisadvantage, and it's the reason you win. You cannot argue against Mystical because it's carddisadvantage.
Setting up for insurance is usually useless, because you play LED. If you mean finding Chant, Mystical is better. You're only going to get more protection anyway when you already can win. CDA doesn't change that.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I still think that Mystical Tutor is way way too slow for T.E.S. It's not worth trying to add it, or shove it in there.
Infernal Tutor is much more synergistic with almost all of the cards in the deck. So why play a tutor that puts something on the top of your library, and reveals it to your opponent? Completely baffles me.
As for testing dual lands, and fetch lands, I've done both and again I agree with Bryant. It's way to hard to adjust the mana base of the deck to support all 5 colors effectively. I couldn't tell you how many times I had a fetch or a dual in my hand and I wished it was a City of Brass or Gemstone Mine, especially when it came to a Chant which can be a game changing spell once it resolves.
Those are my .2 Cents, it just seems like everyone is trying to add there own touch to a deck that already does such a great job and flows so well.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Mystical Tutor shuffles the deck after a brainstorm and it has a cost of just 1 instead of 2. This counts both for AN and its ability to play as a setup spell, and as a setup spell I believe it's much better than both Infernal Tutor and Burning Wish.
That said, I still don't know if it does belong the deck.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Well, eventhough I suspect this won't lead anywhere as there is no way to prove who is right, I'll step in.
I, just like Bahamuth prefer Mystical Tutor-less TES. Still, Mystical Tutor shouldn't be disregarded this easily. The second Japanese list is pretty decent and could be good if improved. For reference, this is the list I tested:
List based on Japanese TES(ish) list (3rd place, there was also a 1st, but I liked this one better)
1 Badlands
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Burning Wish
2 Cabal Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
2 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Orim's Chant
2 Pact of Negation
4 Rite of Flame
Ok. It's pretty different from the usual lists. This means you can't just compare the cards to the usual slots for TES on their own, they work together.
Let's compare: The deck has more lands (2-3), more protection (2-4), less AdN fizzles (it draws if I remember correctly 27 cards on average compared to 17 with normal TES, both assumed with 20 life)
It finds protection more easily. It can shuffle with Brainstorm (more easily). Another small advantage is you can board 1-offs like CoV and find them with Mystical.
It probably has less speed, due to more protection and lands. Although Mystical, in theory, doesn't have to mean loss of speed, this depends on how many extra times you can win on turn 2-3 due to Mystical compared to the times you can't win turn 1/need to wait more than otherwise. Still it's pretty hard to look at Mystical on itself. Mystical needs the deck to be adjusted around, so you can't say it slows you down if the rest speeds you up. I believe this deck is slower. Advantage is you can use protection more easily, have a better "lategame" and can use AdN better.
Other disadvantages are hard to judge objectively.
Here is the line of reasoning I went through when I saw this deck:
You want to use AdN more efficiently, so you want to cut the ToA/EtW/IGG. This also has the advantage you will have less dead draws and thus "more" slots, so, I repeat, you can not compare the slots individually. You have 3 slots more, so the level of your replacements in the deck don't have to be as strong, in theory, because you have more compared to the old list. If you don't understand this logic, nevermind.
Ok, you want to lower your average CC, so you want to cut those 3. Well, this makes IT pretty bad, it still finds your main win, AdN, but you can't combo for 6 mana (IT->EtW) and post-AdN can't find ToA with it. So you cut some IT's and add Mysticals, which work great with AdN, since it lowers the combo cost to 5+1 (spreaded over to turnse, effectively 5), instead of 2+5 in one turn. You can also play less AdN which is good for your CC, because of Mystical. Because the deck is a bit slower and have enough slots it play more lands. This isn't certain though, in my opinion, the old base might work better. So the manabase becomes weaker which leads to not being able to play 4 Chants, since it's hard to get enough W. So PoN are added. the manabase is not an essential part of the deck, but it has advantages of course. Though, if you want more than 11 lands it does seem crappy to add 4 of the bad rainbowlands.
About it being hard to find ToA post-AdN: ridiculous. This deck draws so many cards off it that it becomes easy.
At last, I do not claim this to be better than TES. I just think it is interesting and is useful for discussion. It has led to many doubts and thoughts for me, even after playng TES for 2 years and winning my countries championship with the normal list. Let's look at it without having to defend yourself.
I agree Mox Diamond is horrible and Ponder could be added.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
I don't see a reason to play mainboard Tendrils at all. The deck only played 2 Infernal Tutors, and with the Mysticals, it functions perfectly fine. You don't even give any arguments at all for why to play Tendrils main. I'm sure you can see the advantages, the main one being it reduces your average casting cost, which is a really mayor factor.
It's true that not playing Tendrils main lowers your average CC. However, it opens you up to tons of hate. Even terrible cards like extirpate are now great, if they hit one of your two Burning Wish and you lose. Your opponent could also just counter/discard your two Burning Wish. This seems awful to me, at least if they played a maindeck Ill-Gotten Gains they could get them back. But they don't, this is just another flaw in their lists. Tendrils maindeck wins games you shouldn't by just building up storm because your opponent counterspelled key spells. Running a Tendrils maindeck can also win games when you have hands short on mana, because you won't have to cast extra cards like tutors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
This is just weird....
By stopped, I can think of 2 popular ways: discard and couters. As far as I know, discard is exactly the kind of hate Mystical is good against. The counters are another story, but I'm sure you know just as well that usually only the Tutor/AdN will be countered (with the exception of CB, which will usually mean you've lost anyway), thus making sure you're left with 0-1 cards in your hand anyway. Again, your deck is full of carddisadvantage, and it's the reason you win. You cannot argue against Mystical because it's carddisadvantage.
Sure, Mystical Tutor away, you get Burning Wish. On your mainphase you go off, they counter Wish. They just two for one'd you and you have one card left in the deck that they care about. This is just one example of why their lists are built poorly. I will argue card disadvantage all day, it's very relevant and I care about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
Setting up for insurance is usually useless, because you play LED. If you mean finding Chant, Mystical is better. You're only going to get more protection anyway when you already can win. CDA doesn't change that.
You wouldn't have to find Chant if you played 4x Orim's Chant and Ponder.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
It's true that not playing Tendrils main lowers your average CC. However, it opens you up to tons of hate. Even terrible cards like extirpate are now great, if they hit one of your two Burning Wish and you lose. Your opponent could also just counter/discard your two Burning Wish. This seems awful to me, at least if they played a maindeck Ill-Gotten Gains they could get them back. But they don't, this is just another flaw in their lists. Tendrils maindeck wins games you shouldn't by just building up storm because your opponent counterspelled key spells. Running a Tendrils maindeck can also win games when you have hands short on mana, because you won't have to cast extra cards like tutors.
Sure, Mystical Tutor away, you get Burning Wish. On your mainphase you go off, they counter Wish. They just two for one'd you and you have one card left in the deck that they care about. This is just one example of why their lists are built poorly. I will argue card disadvantage all day, it's very relevant and I care about it.
You wouldn't have to find Chant if you played 4x Orim's Chant and Ponder.
It seems that in most of your scenarios, your arguments assume the storm player is making very stupid choices; Going off without protection, etc.
I play FT a lot as I've mentioned before, and I find myself tutoring up chants all the time. I run a full set, as well as a full set of Duress, which I also tutor for sometimes. Ponder is obviously run as well.
You will never play combo and not get x-for-oned. It's not possible. If a tutor gets countered and it stops your chain, you then got x-for-oned. It happens if you go off unprotected.
An argument for Mystical Tutor is that it spreads your tutors out over 2 cmc's instead of just one. With Mystical Tutor and they chalice @ 1, it makes one of your tutors useless. I will also point out, though, that if they chalice at one, you can often respond by casting Mystical tutor, even into your way to get rid of the Chalice @ 1. Can't do that with ponder.
You are right, Bryant, you can't Mystical into an LED. You CAN however Mystical into a Cabal Rit, which often acts as an LED (which you have said yourself).
Frankly, I think that whether you like it or not, Mystical Tutor has applications in most storm lists, if not all storm lists; it just depends on the player's preference. I like it. It works for me. I'll play it. You don't have to.
Pce,
--DC
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark_Cynic87
It seems that in most of your scenarios, your arguments assume the storm player is making very stupid choices; Going off without protection, etc.
When playing against decks like Threshold, Team America, Eva Green, or EPIC Painter you are forced into doing certain plays because of their disruption. You won't always have time or the resources to sit back and wait.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark_Cynic87
You will never play combo and not get x-for-oned. It's not possible. If a tutor gets countered and it stops your chain, you then got x-for-oned. It happens if you go off unprotected.
In some point in time yes, you will get two for oned. But you don't want that happening constantly. Not playing Mystical lowers these chances.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark_Cynic87
An argument for Mystical Tutor is that it spreads your tutors out over 2 cmc's instead of just one. With Mystical Tutor and they chalice @ 1, it makes one of your tutors useless. I will also point out, though, that if they chalice at one, you can often respond by casting Mystical tutor, even into your way to get rid of the Chalice @ 1. Can't do that with ponder.
You wouldn't have done that either way, Ponder is a sorcery. You in theory could have pondered on your mainphase into the win or a shattering spree. The point here is moot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark_Cynic87
You are right, Bryant, you can't Mystical into an LED. You CAN however Mystical into a Cabal Rit, which often acts as an LED (which you have said yourself).
It can act as LED in producing 3 mana, but not always. It also doesn't make UUU for Diminishing Returns. I'm not arguing against Cabal Ritual here, but it's just not as strong as LED. Which you could have if you just played Ponder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark_Cynic87
Frankly, I think that whether you like it or not, Mystical Tutor has applications in most storm lists, if not all storm lists; it just depends on the player's preference. I like it. It works for me. I'll play it. You don't have to.
Pce,
--DC
This is just annoying. Almost all of your arguments in the past include an attitude that says, "Well, I like it so I'm going to play it, HA!". I get it; you like Mystical tutor, you don't have to put that snipit at the bottom of every one of your posts involving Mystical Tutor.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark_Cynic87
I play FT a lot as I've mentioned before
Your playing Iggy Pop, so your deck is mostly 2 colors with a splash to play main deck chant. Since the deck can't really support burning wish, you are forced to play mystical tutor which I have done.
Mystical tutor is a must in this type of list because you have to find your 1 ofs which are in the main deck pre or post game 1 in addition to any rituals/tutors to win the game. I also tried to add constency to the deck by playing 4 brainstorm/3 ponder. I won't even go into the whole Senei's Divinning Top/Doomsday combo since it terrible and now probably not even played with Ad Nauseam.
Since I've played both sytle decks: TES and FT/Iggy Pop; I have to say the TES version is more consistent and faster which you don't rely on mystical tutor resolving to win.
Think about this: Mystical Tutor alone doesn't win the game unlike Infernal Tutor or Burning Wish does if it resolves.
Plus, waiting a full turn in order to go off is such a big deal that doesn't get emphasized enough when playing combo in regards to the drawback of mystical tutor.
The draw effects in the deck helps you find not one card, but multiple cards that allows you to win.
Ponder/Brainstorm = multiple cards
Mystical Tutor = 1 card
On a side note, mystical tutor also lets your opponent have access to more information about your deck.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nickrit2000
Your playing Iggy Pop, so your deck is mostly 2 colors with a splash to play main deck chant. Since the deck can't really support burning wish, you are forced to play mystical tutor which I have done.
There are 2 important facts here. First is that the deck ain't Iggy Pop. Second is that Mystical is better than Wish there, since the former will never grab any acceleration or the most important protection. Neither will it fetch your enablers and win conditions at instant speed using a more reduced casting cost. This last point is what makes the card more or less susceptible to Daze in the not so uncommon cases of using Wish as a setup spell. Obviously, the use of Mystical Tutor to fetch a win condition after chaining rituals and enablers is reduced to when you can actually cast a draw spell after that. After Nauseam, it's usually only limited by the amount of U you have available, but less so if you play Top.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nickrit2000
Mystical tutor is a must in this type of list because you have to find your 1 ofs which are in the main deck pre or post game 1 in addition to any rituals/tutors to win the game.
You don't use Mystical because you have 1-ofs in the maindeck. You don't use Wish because you have a wishboard. It's the opposite clause in both cases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nickrit2000
On a side note, mystical tutor also lets your opponent have access to more information about your deck.
I really hope you are comparing Mystical Tutor to Ponder here, not Wish.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I've played the deck for a month or so, I'm not an expert, but the Mystical tutor debate looks like a nonsense.
You are trying to fit this card into a deck that doesn't need the card to perform okay.
TES and ANT work differently, IMHO, so trying to fit MT here looks to me like trying to transform TES into a more ANT thing.
Both decks achieve their goals, TES racing hate and winning by turn 1-2, and ANT laughing at hate, setting up their victory some turns after.
At least, that's what it looks like...
If we begin using MT, then we will make more changes to improve the overall sinergy of the deck with this new addition. Finally we'd get an ANT deck...
That's only my opinion, anyway it's great having people who test every card and every possibilty out there, they are the ones who make this go.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
matelml
List based on Japanese TES(ish) list (3rd place, there was also a 1st, but I liked this one better)
1 Badlands
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Burning Wish
2 Cabal Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
2 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Orim's Chant
2 Pact of Negation
4 Rite of Flame
SB:
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Hull Breach
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Orim's Chant
1 Pact of Negation
1 Pyroclasm
3 Shattering Spree
1 Tendrils of Agony
I think that's the winning list. If you scroll down to the pictures of the guy who won, its the same guy above this list on the page.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
troopatroop
I think that's the winning list. If you scroll down to the pictures of the guy who won, its the same guy above this list on the page.
I think you do a disservce to a lot of legacy players by posting terrible decklists. I find the problem quite a bit in some of these threads, where users would just post a decklist without any discussion.
If you truly believe this list is a lot better than the accepted list, please defend where it is better.
