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I own the card and it's cooler. Given that you will never see regeneration in this format (and I'll argue if I do see a green creature regenerating across from me, I think I have a bye against a scrub), it makes absolutely no difference which card you use. They both do the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
There is some Mono Green deck running River Boa so I would never run Nature's Ruin over Perish, and this deck does very well here in Montreal. (Plus, they have Chalice and Trini, so it is not necessarily a great great MU)
Gratz on your finishes guys!
P-M
Alright, there are slight possibilities of regeneration. In that case, just consider the card Perish lol. I merely have it because I like the card and I happen to own it (and don't own a Perish), but do what you will with that slot. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma
Although I will say, the regeneration of a River Boa isn't exactly scary compared to the rest of that deck, nor is it scary in the face of any of the creatures I play. But your point is noted.
I played this deck a few times in testing.
I really think it's missing -1 Brainstorm or Ponder, +1 Careful Study.
Careful Study straight up isn't that much worse than Brainstorm or Ponder. Next to Brainstorm, you draw one less card, but you're also not stuck going through the same material if you're digging for a specific card and can't find a fetchland.
It's much, much better if you happen to have a creature in hand. Not that this happens a lot (about half the time early game to about 60% or 70% late game -- not nearly enough to justify a card like Show and Tell, but probably enough to make Careful Study passable), but when it does happen, it saves you a whole combo piece AND acts as card draw/filtration.
There were two or three games just in testing where I really wanted to Mystical Tutor for Careful Study, because the creature I wanted to Animate was in hand (or just because I had a passable creature in hand, and Careful Study is demonstrably better than Entomb in that situation). If the only creature you want is in hand, you need to leap through some hoops to get it out, but Careful Study shortcuts all the hoops.
Multiple copies of Careful Study in this build would probably not be worth it, but I really missed having SOMETHING to tutor up that takes advantage of having the creature in hand. Just something to think about. Nice tournament report at any rate.
You could always Mystical for Thoughtsieze...Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbiddian
Would you really search for Careful Study with Mystical in the same situation if you had 1 Show and Tell maindeck (although the argument that Show and Tell can be a dead card when drawn is offset by S&T getting around Hate. True?).
DI:
Why no Thunder Dragon in the SB? Is it because by the time you need to play it you have taken too much damage anyway?
Just got back from my weekly legacy tournament where I split in the top 4 again. 26 players.
Rd 1: Bye
Rd 2: Eva Green 2-1 (Iona wins)
Rd 3: Ugbw Counterbalance control 2-0 (Inkwell g1, Iona - white g2)
Rd 4: Belcher 2-0 (Thoughtseize + Iona - red)
Top 8: Belcher 2-1 (He wins g1, Game 2 I have a quick Iona - Red, Game 3 he turn 1 B. Wish looking for Empty......he boarded it in. Terrible for him. A reanimated Street Wraith and Sphinx win.)
I played the same list as last time, just changing Akroma for Iona #3.
Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce
3 Show and Tell
2 Pithing Needle
1 Reverent Silence
1 Blazing Archon
1 Thunder Dragon
1 Massacre (every goblin build in my meta is Rw)
Quote:
Originally Posted by arebennian
Thunder Dragon is rather narrow as far as when it will be good. Essentially, it's only good if I'm playing against an aggro deck and they're capable of getting rid of my creature but I still need to sweep their board. That situation is rather uncommon, so in many cases getting Sphinx, Blazing Archon, or even Empyrial Archangel is just a better play. Plus the fact that it doesn't kill Tarmogoyf really puts me off. I imagine you only brought it up because it was in my sideboard for that event, but the sole reason it was there was because I needed to fill slots at the last second as I was a little unorganized due to a busy night prior the event and didn't have a chance to get everything together in time.
Ad Di mentioned, scouting is huge. As I play test against someone, I notice that my win % goes up quite a bit from the first time we play (vs unknown deck) until the end when I generally know their deck and can maximize Iona, and other lines of play. In one tournament I did not know what someone was playing and could get any creature t1. I decided Inkwell was the safest and played him. They go... swamp, rit, smallpox. Weee. Knowledge = Iona, black, game, en route match.
What would you guys recommend as a budget land base to this deck? (No dual lands or search lands).
You could run 5-color lands, since they tend to be cheaper I think. Gemstone Mine, City of Brass, Thran Quarry, Tarnished Citadel, and perhaps Lotus Petals as well. Maybe even Gemstone Caverns too, or just plain old Ravnica shock lands.
Or you could go with a mono-Black build. I've had some success in testing, though I am running a small splash for green just for sideboard stuff.
-T
Well, Terramorphic Expanse would set you back a lot since the deck always wants to do something Turn 1. You could go with Underground Rivers, I guess. The lifeloss could pile up for the Reanimates though.
Or you could just go mono-black for 18+ Swamps. Those are cheap.
Im also seeking somewhat of a budget alternative...what are the primary differences between the B/U version and the mono-black?
Counter magic and deck manipulation. You have to run proactive disruption as opposed to running the reactive one that protects your shit and keeps combo from going off. It hurts but it's not unplayable. If cash wasn't an option though, i'd probably stick to the B/U. All things considered though, i've been doing fine playing Mono-Black.
11x Swamp
6x Fetch
2x Bayou
4x Dark Ritual
4x Entomb
4x Buried Alive
4x Beseech the Queen
2x Undead Gladiator
3x Reanimte
4x Exhume
4x Animate Dead
2x Dance of the Dead
4x Duress
2x Thoughtsieze
1x Iona
1x Sphinx
1x Archon
1x Inkwell
SB
1x Iona
1x Thunder Dragon
1x Sundering Titan
2x Ravenous Trap
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Null Rod
2x Krosan Grip
1x Rev Silence
1x Engineered Explosives
2x City of Solitude
1x Simplify
This was a black green build I had put together, you could easily cut the green and play it mono black. I played it at the last black lotus event that Eli held and went 5-3 on the day. One loss was to a huge punt on my part, was my first actual tournament with the deck and another loss was to my not drawing a second mana source in any of the 5 turns I had, I did have to mull to 5 that game but I opened Swamp, Entomb, 2x Duress, Exhume for game 3 against Zoo in round 8. Had I hit another mana source I would have been in top 16. The only loss I had where I was just beaten down was against Bant and I still took him to game 3.
I do think Force of Will is the best option for this deck but if you wanted to start on a budget that list without green is fairly cheap.
Thanks.It seems like mono black plays a much more all-in style...I think ill try it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sims
One thing I'd like to throw out there, as I play them in my mono-b build, is Cabal Therapy. In these lists that have 4 creatures it's weak, granted, but if you can't get your hands on Seize's it's a decent option. I have a bit more support for it since I run a 2 Woodfall Primus' in my list as well as Zombie Infestation as a discard outlet (since I run more guys than most, and squee over the undead gladiators) and the Flashback has not really been a problem for me to be able to use it when I need to. Not to mention it's flat dirty to therapy, exhume a primus, flashback therapy, and still have a 5/5 on the table ready to lay the beats.
But again, my list is different than these.
It seems pretty arbitrary that you decided a pro and a con of show and tell just cancel out. Obviously it matters if the pro causes more winning than the con causes losing. The point Matt is making is that careful study is not terrible when you don't happen to have a win, and is great when you do. Show and tell is terrible when you have nothing, and then great when you do. What are the relative magnitudes of these "terribles, greats, not terrible etc.?"Quote:
Originally Posted by arebennian
I mean you can do a computation to be exact, or you can test, which will typically converge to the "right result."
Also, if you're just counting pros and cons, you should note that S&T might put your opponent's crap into play. This matters against every deck, but it matters especially against dredge, reanimator, NO progenitus.
Quote:
It seems pretty arbitrary that you decided a pro and a con of show and tell just cancel out. Obviously it matters if the pro causes more winning than the con causes losing. The point Matt is making is that careful study is not terrible when you don't happen to have a win, and is great when you do. Show and tell is terrible when you have nothing, and then great when you do. What are the relative magnitudes of these "terribles, greats, not terrible etc.?"
I mean you can do a computation to be exact, or you can test, which will typically converge to the "right result."
I didn't intend to arbitrarily decide that the Pro outweighed the Con (thus the question mark), although I can understand why you would read it as such. By definition the word 'offset' doesn't strictly mean 'cancel out', it is closer to 'compensate' or 'counteract'; words which do not imply that the negative is totally erased.
As such my statement provided a negative of S&T (primarily so that the responder wouldn't quickly offer the point as an answer without elaborating) and a positive (which I personally see as being very strong in games 2&3) with the intention of garnering a clearer critique of the choice rather than just 'not nearly enough to justify a card like Show and Tell'.
It was simply a quick way of asking that if he were to Wish for Careful Study were it REALLY better than S&T if you included it as a singleton to search for when needed and as such, would rarely draw it.
It was not my suggestion that the benefits of S&T strictly outweighed it's own negatives and that of Careful Study.
For the first time in months I didn't fare to well in a legacy tournament.
I ended up 9th out of 24. (3-3), which is not quite to my liking.
what took me down?
counterbalance (2-0), went quite well.
merfolk U/g (2-1)
merfolk (1-2)
Mono-red burn with ensnaring bridge (2-0)
merfolk (1-2)
ichorid (1-2) , I can blame this loss on myself due to mistakes.
I lost most of the matches to my own deck. It's normally very consistent, the deck prove to be that with regular turns and drops ( turn 1-4 with counterwars) the first 2 rounds, after the first match in the 3rd round, my deck start hampering badly, lots of mulligans to be made ( 10 that day) and still couldn't find a single piece of speed also I could hardly find the combo. now it can happen offcourse, but besides that I also had struggles against merfolk ( topdeck, why do they topdeck) besides their topdeck luck, the match-up must be improved.
I've been checking at my current sideboard and it has lots of room for improval.
atm it's like this
there is not touching in these SB cards.
4 extirpate
3 krosan grip
1 sphinx of the steel wind
1 show and tell
this is doubtfull
2 echoing truth ( does help a lot, but I don't think I really need it)
1 infest ( all nice and stuff, but it gets countered vs merfolk anyways, and goblins should be a decent match-up already)
2 engineered explosives ( these are quite good, but can possibly be changed)
1 gilded drake. ( I love this card, it can surprise the mirror, ichorid, dreadstill and dark depths)
now what I need for the merfolk match-up. Either an artifact/enchantment that stops their speed.
sickening dreams will get countered against that deck, so it's not worth dropping your hand.
I've been thinking about singletarget removal. ( the zendikar one black mana instant that gives -2/-2) it's cheap, quick and will take down either their lords or cursecatcher.
won't do much good against many other decks, but you never need it there. Any suggestions?
- powder keg could be a nice addition.