Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viscosity
You're right the deck requires skill to play and that one should consider other options using brainstorm. But you are completely WRONG about brainstorm being bad first turn. If you had ever played landstill decks for any length of time, you would realize that first turn brainstorm is often the best play (period).
:rolleyes: :eyebrow: :eek:
Please explain why Brainstorm is best on the first turn. I don't understand. I always believed Brainstorm becomes better the longer you wait. On the first turn it basically says: put the top 3 cards in any order and draw a card. If you wait some time, you can shuffle away the worst 2 cards instead of one, with a bigger chance of being able to shuffle at all. Also, on the first turn there is a good chance you don't know what you are up against, which mans you have less info about which cards are weaker and stronger in your hand. Finally: later on you have more info about how many lands you want to keep in your hand and if you have redundant copies of functionally similar cards.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
thought I let you UW fans know that it got first place last night in a very competitive meta. This was the first night I've played my new decklist and it has been consistently better than other landstills I've played with.
I finally got registered on this site. yeesh! Anyway, I've been playing magic since 6th grade, and I'm 26, so however long that is. Mostly just FNM with people who net deck legacy and play the best decks they can. I prefer to play control or ridiculous combo when that is available (pandanought, worldgorger, foodchain, etc.) Best playing result was 3rd in a 550 person extended PTQ.
I've been a fan of standstill since it came out. I remember immediately making a deck around it with manadrain, disk, standstill, cloud of faeries, mishra factory, faerie conclave, etc. It would normally place top 3 in local events.
I'm going to post my current deck list after Chicago GP. You'll see familiar cards, but the devil is in the details and the exact card counts. It is tuned to the net-deck meta and winning a lot of play-testing but needs more testing to expose unrealized weaknesses. I can’t decide if I will even play it in Chicago. LONG GAMES SUCK IN BIG EVENTS! Draws, tired brain, ugh. But I’d rather not play against it, so I won't post it until then.
Tournament report on the 20 person legacy event at Battleforge Games in Austin, (last night 1-16 - 4-round Swiss):
1) UW - Landstill
2) Its the Fear
3) Death and Taxes
4) Thresh
5) Its the Fear
6) Enchantress
7) Survival ? (<---- not sure about 7th and 8th)
8) Thresh ?
Interesting Meta last night. No goblins, no ichorid. And Death and Taxes trounced both good thresh decks.
Round One: 2-0 vs 4-Color Deedstill:
Game One: I protect an early Elspeth with a FoW and carry her to a quick win with some fat decrees.
Game Two: His counterspells stop my crucible, elspeth, and FoF. He casts FoF and I get scared. We get into top deck mode. He draws into edicts, swords, mass-removal. I draw into Decrees, standstills, FoF, stifles... and I win because edicts and swords are dead vs big decrees.
Round Two: "2 - 1" vs my brother playing Enchantress:
Game One: I counter his first enchantress. He drops enchantress' presence and city of solitude. I play Elspeth, he O-rings her. I play EE for 3. He plays Karmic Justice! I ended up popping EE and losing lands but I draw into academy ruins and more land for a recurring EE. I throw stifles at draw effects where I can and manage to slow him down enough that the flying soldier and mishra's factory get the job done.
Game Two: He does nothing first 2 turns. I play Meddling Mage on enchantress' presence. He plays 3rd turn Choke! I manage to squeeze out an elspeth under choke. And I immediately start swinging with a 5/5 flying mage and a factory. He has almost locked me down, if not for non-island land. This game is very close. The final turn, I play another Meddling mage on O-ring. He is at 1 life and draws an enchantresses presence, he can't play it so he scoops. We looked and saw that if he had been able to play that card, he would of drawn into the nuts, and would have stopped my threats and won the subsequent turn. The choke never left the board.
We report it as 2-1 since we share our collection and hate playing each other in tournaments.
Round Three: 1-1-1 vs It’s The Fear
Game One: like most games, this centers around Elspeth. We get into a long epic battle as he tries to kill my Elspeth with a Goyf and Etched Oracle. Because I play cards like decree and swords to help protect her, she ends up making everything invincible and winning the game with subsequent tokens.
Game Two: Another Epic fight. He manages to take down an Elspeth and establish a 3 card per turn draw engine with Etched Oracle. I scoop to hurry to third game.
Game 3: We go to time. At the final turn, I had cleared his board with EEs, dropped an Elspeth, had 3 soldiers in play from a decree, and a FoF to play. I considered the win locked-in. But a draw it was. He finished 2nd.
Round 4: 2 - 0 vs GU Survival w/ Thresh?- mongoose , goyf, witness etc.
Game One: I stifle a fetchland and waste two non-basics. Wrath of God and EE for 2 are the key players. FoF and big decrees seal it up. He is never able to really use Survival.
Game Two: He drops survival and starts playing threats. 2 mongoose and a goyf get Wrathed out. On a later turn, the top deck of the night allows me to play an EE and kill 2 goyfs and the survival. Mass soldier Decrees win. If this deck had a discard package I would've been scared.
So the actual games for the night went 8-1 (counting the draw as a win, which it would've been).
A couple comments... If it wasn't obvious, Elspeth is the bee's knees. She is an absolute bomb in the deck. Decree often wins the control match-up. EE is the most critical removal in the deck. A pithing needle on EE spells trouble, but most people make the mistake of naming Elspeth. So I guess 2 pithing needles is BIG trouble. A pithing needle turns out to be a must counter if you think they are going to name EE. Other untested weaknesses may include: ichorid, burn.deck, goblins, ANT. But this build is new for me, so I'll test those MUs this week.
In conclusion, I’ve played with dreadstill, 4c deedstill, UWr landstill, UWb landstill, UWg landstill. IMO: UW landstill is the most solid. I run a couple off color mana sources for EEs but that is all they do.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rockout
I know someone tested it a few pages back and said it was amazing against combo. I would quote it for you, but my post would get deleted. I think runed halo and meddling mage is enough to combat combo. You need sb slots that function against multiple decks. Chalice would only come in against combo and I guess mono-red burn while mage and halo can come in against any deck you want.
I run 3-4 Chalices in my LS sideboard and they come in against more than combo and Burn. You can see a list that T8'd a 118 player tournament in Germany here. (Thanks for the heads-up Agent Funk.) Chalices are also good against almost any kind of aggro-control deck (including Goyf Sligh), though I definitely like Chalices in U/b/g LS better since that deck doesn't run Swords to Plowshares.
MMage and Halo are probably just as good vs. storm combo, though they take up more slots.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Viscosity: already posted your list?
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
matelml
:rolleyes: :eyebrow: :eek:
Please explain why Brainstorm is best on the first turn. I don't understand. I always believed Brainstorm becomes better the longer you wait. On the first turn it basically says: put the top 3 cards in any order and draw a card. If you wait some time, you can shuffle away the worst 2 cards instead of one, with a bigger chance of being able to shuffle at all. Also, on the first turn there is a good chance you don't know what you are up against, which mans you have less info about which cards are weaker and stronger in your hand. Finally: later on you have more info about how many lands you want to keep in your hand and if you have redundant copies of functionally similar cards.
edit: reading back through, want to make sure no misunderstandings. The original comment said that brainstorm was horrible first turn. I was saying that his statement is incorrect. And no one should believe that they should never play brainstorm on first turn. be sure not to miss the "often" in my statement.
I'm not saying you should cast it first turn in every situation. I'm saying it is OFTEN the best thing to do. I also agree that HYPOTHETICALLY, there are better uses for brainstorm. Like removing two bad cards. But in practice, it is often the best play given the cards you drew.
Here are some reasons..
1) DECK THINNING. it starts digging. One card deeper immediately, two cards deeper if you are able to fetchland out one bad card.
2) it does SOMETHING first turn to affect the game and actually get into cards that do things other than play with the top of the deck. I'll generally stifle a fetch / or sword a threat instead of brainstorm, but if no fetch was played, then cast it.
3) it allows the casting of standstill or EE for two on second turn
4) Later in the game, WHEN YOU DO KNOW what they are playing, you will use your subsequently drawn brainstorms to remove dead cards. If your deck has so many dead cards that you cant draw enough brainstorms, then you need to revise the deck.
Sure there are situations where holding the brainstorm is better. say you need white mana that you dont have, you may wait to be one card deeper, especially if you dont have a fetch in hand. Or perhaps you have 2 cards that you know are dead and a fetch in hand. Then wait.
In practice, I find brainstorm being cast on turn one to be the best choice well over 50% of the time. That also means it is the best choice to NOT play it over 40% of the time. Probably the most powerful reason to cast it is that you will draw another one later (for removal of dead cards), and casting first turn give you 10 cards to choose from for your turn two play.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TeKo
Viscosity: already posted your list?
after chicago i will. Or maybe you can read it in the top 8 deck lists from the event. No just kidding :smile: . Like I said, I may not even play landstill, ad it is very likely i wont top 8, hahah
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mantis
You are just wasting your resources. Like I said in my post, sometimes you have to spend your Brainstorm turn 1 to hit your landdrop or you need to dig for FoW. Only advise I give is not to use your Brainstorm turn 1 because you always do, it's not always the right play and in fact is a mistake a lot of the time.
I agree that it is a mistake a lot of the time. I think we agree on the uses of brainstorm. but you posted the statement "brainstorm turn one is terrible," and I can't agree with you there. Brainstorm is always good, pretty much however you use it. It is better than cycling!
Oh and I run 3 brainstorms.. Flame on.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I created an experimental list without Brainstorms and it was amazing. The problem I had with the list was actually because I couldn't keep many opening hands. So I went back to Brainstorms. I cut a Brainstorm for a 3rd FoF because raw card advantage was what I needed.
Brainstorm on the first turn is strictly for set-up or Daze baiting so that you can resolve Standstill and/or make a land drop on your second turn.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Against storm combo I'd rather run Chalice of the void. You can shut off substantially more resources with a 0 cc chalice as oppose to a 2 cc runed halo/meddling mage. Then you can just dismantle their other resources with wasteland and/or counterbalance(referring to Bardo's UWG List).
As for the runed halo and meddling mage combination. I find them effective since I see them as supplements that can fill in gaps for sour game ones.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citrus-God
I created an experimental list without Brainstorms and it was amazing. The problem I had with the list was actually because I couldn't keep many opening hands. So I went back to Brainstorms. I cut a Brainstorm for a 3rd FoF because raw card advantage was what I needed.
Brainstorm on the first turn is strictly for set-up or Daze baiting so that you can resolve Standstill and/or make a land drop on your second turn.
3rd FoF is exactly what I did too. I think you simply MUST run them though. Many situations such as being mana flooded turn a brainstorm into ancestral recall.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Just fyi I top 8'd a local tourney going 3-2-1 losing to armageddon stax twice.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Tournament report please. How did you lose to staxs?
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rockout
Tournament report please. How did you lose to staxs?
Very easily.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
raharu
Very easily.
I was hoping for a more in depth response than what is written above. If they push through a t1 trinisphere followed by crucible + wasteland, then yes, you can lose easily. I would love a tournament report joel to see what happened. I don't consider it a terrible match up for landstill.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rockout
I was hoping for a more in depth response than what is written above. If they push through a t1 trinisphere followed by crucible + wasteland, then yes, you can lose easily. I would love a tournament report joel to see what happened. I don't consider it a terrible match up for landstill.
I've always thought that the match went something to the effect that Smokestack blows up lands, and Landstill doesn't play many other permanents outside of lands, so landstill doesn't really get to do much. At the very least, they have Crucible superiority. I've always thought it was a rather lopsided match in Staxx's favor, but I don't actually know that, and that thought is based on hearsay and bullshit theory, so :3
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
First match I mull'd both starting hands to five and didn't see brainstorm/ ponder. I never broke through his first wave of lockdown pieces and it really effected my gameplan. Needless to say It was horrid. Counterspell is deffinately a must in that matchup.
In the t8 I played the same guy and even though my hands were better I still lost to a resolved armageddon after stax. This leads me to believe that the matchup is very dependant on you dropping repetitive forces with your opponent breaking your standstills or counterspelling the crap out of them. I never laid a meddling mage on stax or armageddon so that also REALLY effected my gameplan. Overall I can deffinately see how running vindicate/ wasteland would greatly improve this matchup, but outside of that its still going to be only 50-50. The real key as it seems to me is perniscious deed. I remember when I played 4c this matchup was hella easy, and I really never feared anything.
Overall I realized that the model I currently running needs additional blue sources as I just don't see enough. I think i'll be cutting the vendillion for an island again and moving on of the plains as a polluted delta "I think"
4 flooded
4 tundra
1 polluted delta
1 underground
1 scrubland
3 mishra
1 tolaria west
1 dustbowl
1 academy ruins
2 plains
4 island
That to me seems a we bit better on the base, but I think I need to do additional testing with the 1 runed halo in the main. Although it can be incredibly usefull it can also be a big pain as its still difficult to get rid of challice which CAN be a problem but on paper shouldnt be.
The other matches I played in the day were 4c aggro with tribal flames and gae's might with the regular package of burn and creatures. I 2-0'd that matchup with first hand being pretty insane and second hand getting all 3 halo's naming lightning bolt/ tribal flames/ lightning helix. There wasn't much he could do outside of krosan grip's and vindicates, but he only gripped my humility which was fine as the deck had more then enough disruption to keep him off balance.
fyi responding to jotun's grunt ability by stacking relic's second ability= P.I.M.P play.
I also fought 2 T.A. which using maindeck relic was deffinately the right choice. Also Runed halo was excellent as noted, and suprisingly I used dustbowl to some effect against both decks. all together I finished 4-1 against the 2 and I fealt very confidant with this model.
Also in the meta were 4c loam, gobos, life.dec, ww, suicide black, fae goodstuff control, and some other interesting decks.
Final thoughts:
Every time I go to this perticular tournament it doesn't REALLY matter what I bring as I face a matchup 3 round and 1st round of t8 its the same matchup as my 3rd round and its always pretty unfavorable hand wise.
last time it was burn "I didnt have ajani and I didnt see cunning wish."
This time it was arm stax "there were 2 copies of this deck at the tourney" and I didn't see blue sources/ force/ or meddling mage. Not to mention it would have been really nice to play a standstill :(.
So the modo of the night was
"when I see untapped blue sources/ more then one. I win, when I don't I lose."
Overall I had a good time and for 20$ each the prize support was truly shitty. getting rid of a set of sea drakes and a set of savannahs with over 20 people in attendance. Really depressing.
anyways ttyl
-Joel.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rockout
I was hoping for a more in depth response than what is written above. If they push through a t1 trinisphere followed by crucible + wasteland, then yes, you can lose easily. I would love a tournament report joel to see what happened. I don't consider it a terrible match up for landstill.
There's also Armageddon. They recover much faster after an Armageddon compared to you.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
the fact that stax decks are almost not played can be ignored when building a deck. However, if it is a local meta concern, i would go with Crucible. If you can get one down on turn three, you should survive their Geddon/Waste+crucible and smokestack
vindicate, deed are cards that can also answer STax
Robert
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Omega
the fact that stax decks are almost not played can be ignored when building a deck. However, if it is a local meta concern, i would go with Crucible. If you can get one down on turn three, you should survive their Geddon/Waste+crucible and smokestack
vindicate, deed are cards that can also answer STax
Robert
I was just thinking that instead of running the funky list I have been as of late that i'll switch to a more standardized list. The problem is that the armageddon stax players typicly don't bring the same thing twice, but its ok because I realisticly couldn't win that matchup with the list I had. But other then that I did pretty well, so I was happy.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I did a little more play testing. Won 3 - 0 vs stacks and 5 - 1 to vial-goblins.
The stacks games were a little scarier, but goblins was easy. I played around a first turn trinisphere 2 of 3 games. Elspeth > smokestack. EE > chalice. One thing i didn't face was Suppression Field. That is a common stacks sideboard card and is a HUGE problem.
