I'd consider fire/ice if you're splashing red. The card still wrecks, especially in a goblins/zoo meta.
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I'd consider fire/ice if you're splashing red. The card still wrecks, especially in a goblins/zoo meta.
Matt, how did the 3 Spell Pierce work out for you? I love it in the SB but maindeck I find that it is either irrelevant or too little, too late. Also, are 4 Extirpate really insufficient GY hate? The only deck I could imagine siding in that much hate for is dredge, and I find it to be at least 50-50 with Extirpates, Deeds, Swords, and Forces. Have you tried Consume the Meek in your wishboard? I've never played wish in UGBx, so I don't have any experience regarding the effectiveness of Tsabo's Decree, but CtM just looks more versatile. It can't stop Progenitus, or Vengevine, but it blows away everything in Zoo, Merfolk, everything but SGC and Ringleader in Goblins. So, a lot of stuff dies to it is my point. And it's a mana cheaper, which is the bigger point.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Obviously there are matches were Spell Pierce won't matter (Zoo is not as good, Merfolk somewhat relevant, mostly for countering their Forces on your relevant stuff, countering a first turn vial with you on the play, etc), but in the matchups it's good against, like Stax, Dredge (against Breakthrough and Dread Return), Storm and the like, it's a real house. I love seeing it most of the time, and if not, it pitches to Force :D
I side in 3 Extirpate and 4 Leyline against Aggro Loam, Dredge, Vengevine, etc. I know we have a good matchup already, but I hate leaving the matchup to chance. In my experience, the matches I always hate losing the most and really make me tilt and lose my edge in a large tournaments are the favoured matchups. For me personally, I want to be extra sure my good matchups are locked down, and my bad matchups are covered as well. It's almost like you get frustrated with yourself for losing a game you should have won, you know? Point being, it's good hate, and siding in 3 and leaving one to Wish for has been extremely solid. Mind you, I did lose a game to Dredge with 2 Leyline in play and 2 Extirpate in hand: He beat me down with a hardcast Sphinx, and I drew no counters or creature kill, just 10 lands in a row.
I've never tried Consume the Meek, but I'll give it a shot.
With Decree, it's a house. Give it a try, you'll feel like a champ when you cast it. It severely hoses Merfolk and Goblins, and they have to enter topdeck mode versus you usually having Deed/Jace/Pressure.
Mind you, I'm still tweaking the deck, so more changes may come around.
-Matt
I think this thread needs a bump. BTW how are everyone's testing result vs survival (WG or Ug)? I've been having fantastic results with my UWBG list pre and post board. I don't board for the WG lists (extirpate just shuts down the venge combo) while I board extirpates in vs the UG versions because without Venges, the deck is terrible. Anyone else having the same results?
@ivanpei: I'm playing Ubg and UWb landstill and both perform really well - funny that cunning wish became a really good card again after the rise of vengevine.^^
Actually Survival may be one of the best Matchups you can get (from my experience)
What do you have in your SB to Wish for against Survival in your UGB list?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiang
Do you run MD Spell Pierces?
This match has been nothing but excellent for me. My counter suite looks like:Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
Sweep with:
2 EE
4 Pernicious Deed
Block with Nantuko Monastery. Remove with StP. Side in Extirpate, krosan grip, and sometimes stifle (vs GW version)
If you can prevent the vines from hitting the table they got a bunch of underwhelming bears.
I recently scrubbed out of a local Legacy tournament going 1-3, but I faced all Tribal (Goblins and Zoo), and they ALL drew 3-4 Wastelands per game, and always had the nuts Countermagic against me. Maybe I drowned some kittens, but I'm pretty sure it was just them drawing the nuts and me not so much.
Anyways, I've been playing with 4 Extirpate and 4 Leyline in the board, and 2 Wish main and I haven't looked back. It rocks Dredge, Loam, Lands (if you can get the mana up to do so, or postboard) and Survival. I'll continue to play the deck though, as it's really fun to play. I'm considering adding Consume the Meek to the board, as it's a smidge faster than Decree, but I love me Decree too much to get rid of it yet :tongue:
I find we have problems again Zoo. Since we're a bit slower, in the first three turns they can hit hard unless we counter basically everything, and then we have to save counters until they play Price of Progress. In general, there's not much we can do against Burn, and we don't really have an awesome clock. I think if we're splashing white, Leyline of Sanctity is great, but if not, any tips? I know Zoo isn't as popular, but is this just a bad matchup in general?
-Matt
Hey Matt...still working on the landstill deck. Well, since you helped me build it, I've made some revisions, and it doesn't lose much...to anything.
I swapped out the LFTL's for sensei's diving top's, and I run 3 firespout maindeck. For zoo (and combo), I've been siding in 4 counterbalance and its gg.
BTW...you coming out tonight for Legacy? Have a couple new faces coming (I won't be playing landstill).
My List:
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
3 Firespout
4 Innocent Blood
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Sensei's Diving Top
4 Perniscious Deed
4 Standstill
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard
1 SDT
4 Extirpate
2 COTW
2 BEB
2 REB
4 Counterbalance
Thinking of testing out Vendillion Clique in the sideboard, would up my 3 count for counterbalance, and it seems deadly in theory. EOT Clique, then drop landstill.
~Wess
Can't come out unfortunately, I've got some homework that needs to get done. The list looks decent though. I'm not entirely sold on SDT in this deck, but I'll most definitely give it a shot.
-Matt
I'm glad everyone's having plenty of success against Survival with landstill. I find that this deck is the absolute best at wrecking survival. I run the following countersuit:
4 Force
4 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
And Just in case anything sneaks past:
4 Deed
2 EE
4 STP
2 Path
I made zero changes to my MD to combat survival, these cards were naturally just there and they all wreck survival. I advise all players to pick up this deck in this survival infested meta. Lets beat back the tide people!
@ Matt, how's your list like? Mine has the above counter/removal suit and I have no problems vs zoo. Targeted instant removal whites gives is just awesome vs them. @ Goblins, nothing much we can do, that is a nuts hard matchup.
I'm not playing white, so I lose the advantage of Swords but gain Firespout. Firespout allows me to use Deeds more sparingly, but sometimes you get caught offguard with a 10/10 KoTR staring you down with no Countermagic, Deed, or Jace. I guess we have to lose sometimes :P
-Matt
Yeah bad beats happens, :( Firespout is better vs folk, white with targetted is better vs zoo's monsters. Oh well, can't win em all, better luck next time!
Hi. I've been lurking this board for quite a while, but never had been posting.
In the last couple of weeks I've come upt with the following Uwgb list. My local metagame seemes to be quite normal, consisting of Vengevival, Zoo, Goblins, some TES and Reanimator and quite a few Landstill decks, both UWb and BUG.
Lands (24x)
3x Tundra
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Flooded Strand
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
Spells (36x)
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare
2x Spell Pierce
4x Sword to Plowshares
1x Path to Exile
2x Vindicate
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Engeneered Explosives
4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
2x Fact or Fiction
2x Jace, the Wallet Sculptor
Sideboard (15x)
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Extirpate
2x Krosan Grip
2x Engeneered Plague
2x Hydroblast
1x Pithing Needle
Card Choices:
The Counterspells: Going a little bit counter-heavy with 13 counterspells total seems to work really fine. I really like the 4 counterspells. Having definite answers to the slower bombs in the format (Jace, Natural Order, Show and Tell and the like) is worth the slots, despite beeing not able to obtain UU constantly on Turn 2. 3 Spell snare seems to be accepted nowadays with the roaming SotF decks. The two Spell Snare give that little extra consistancy against the very strong two drops when you're on the draw (again SotF, Tarmo, ...) in addition to improving your combo matchup and stopping nasty one drops on the play (Lackey, Vial).
Spot Removal: 5 sword-effects - we don't have to argue about how good StP are - just if it's worth running white at all. I really do think it's worth it. If there wouldn't be vengevines, it would be much closer. The 2 vindicates are a not so common choice. I know that 3cc at sorcery speed is quite a pain, but these are the only 2 slots where i forgo consistancy and speed in favor of flexibility.
Mass Removal: I used to run 4 Deeds and 1 EE and despite Deeds beeing the bombs we all know them to be, EE are just one turn faster an can save you against the aggro decks where deed would come to late.
Draw: I'm just running 3 Standstills because the manland/standstill trick isn't what it used to be and this deck features just 4 Factories to interact with them. So no Decree of Justice, no other manlands. I think because of this and the power of Jace, 3 is the ideal number. I'm running the old fashioned Fact or Fiction in a 2/2 split with Jace instead of all-Jace because, again, sorcery speed is such a pain and Fact or Fiction can also win you games without the need to tap out.
Manabase: I'm totaly convinced that basic lands do not belong in a 4 color deck. The single island does nothing, because even without it cutting you from UU is still harder than cutting you from any of your other colors. The only alternative would be to also run a Plains, Forest and Swamp, which I think is out of discussion. The 3 Wastelands may seem weired in a 4 color deck and I'm not totaly sure about it. But the only alternatives are another dual (which I don't think I need), another manland (which I don't think I need, because I have Jaces as win-conditions) or another utility land that produces blue and is needed (which I don't know).
So these are my thoughts about landstill. Any comments and/or criticism are very appreciated!
@ScatmanX yes I run 2 Spell Pierce main (actually how do you know?). I wish for extirpate against UG Vengevine (siding in 3 extirpate), after extirpating mostly creature hate or forbid (if I've the time), against GW I don't side in the extirpate and adapt with wishing for the situation (depending on situation extirpate, submerge (iona on black - rareley happens, they shouldn't get the engine working in the first place ), grip, slaughter pact, edict or forbid(extremely lategame) ). Don't know it's nothing special but I'm not innovative anyway^^.
I think Jace should definitely be at least a 3 off. I'm actually considering running the 4th. He is that busted. I find that I can't kill quick enough/close out the game if I don't land him. By running just 2, there's a risk you don't draw him. I know he's clunky, but if you don't play nantukos, I think there's no choice but to play the 3rd Jace. I 'd cut a fact for the 3rd Jace, TMS. My 2 cents. Cheers!
ivanpei, run the 4th Jace. I as long as your not cutting a Force or a Brainstorm, whatever other card you cut is inferior to Jace. In all honesty, he's by a long shot the best win condition I've ever seen for Control decks, especially with the removal package you run to protect him. He answers all sorts of problems by himself, or can help you dig to find answers he cant solve. He can be clunky at times, but always pitches to Force, can always be shuffled away, and if you have 4 mana, he is a Brainstorm+Fog effect. Plus, with 4 you're never afraid to pitch him or run him out to an early death because you know you have more. I've been running 4 now for about 3 months, and never looked back.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
I've also been testing with Nature's Claim in the spot of KGrip, and have been impressed with my results. The only matchups where Grip is superior is the Counterbalance and other U-based control matchups. Everywhere else, it's generally to slow. I've been siding in Claim against Folk (for there Needles and Vials), Madness (for Survival and Needles), Enchantress (duh), Burn (in emergencies, nail one of your Factories to gain 4), and even Storm (to preemptively blow up Moxen and Diamonds). Even aggro-decks nowadays run something to hit with it, and the cards you hit are more than likely very bad for you (Vial, Survival, Needle, Jitte, etc.). It's a really versatile card and the life gain is either irrelevant (you should be killing people with Jace) or a blessing (blowing up your own stuff to gain 4). Hope other people give the card a shot, as we already have a favorable matchup against CB decks.
For reference, my current list:
4 Strand
2 Rainforest
2 Delta
4 Tundra
3 U Sea
3 Trop Island
4 Factory
1 Island
1 Plains
4 BS
4 Force
4 Standstill
4 Jace
4 Deed
4 Swords
2 Path
2 EE
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
2 Top
SB
1 Path
2 EE
3 Peacekeeper
2 Claim
3 Extirpate
1 Spell Pierce
2 Hydroblast (Flex Slot)
1 Random Card (Flex Slot, often another Claim or Hydroblast)
Loam is still a great card in the deck, but sometimes it just doesn't do very much, so I went for something with a little more action in it.
I've since moved the Spell Pierce to the main for more early-game action and reinforcement against Combo. Almost every deck in the format besides Goblins has targets to hit with Pierce. Plus, it allows you to force through an early Jace and just take control of the game. It has also opened up room in the sideboard for Hydroblast (anti-Goblins and decent against TES), but I'm always looking for suggestions on the flex slots.
Any ideas?
You could run Duress in those slots. Helps the Survival matchup even more, can help you take down BWG Rock (take their Vindicate or something), Landstill mirror, Aether Vial, and helps you more against combo. Otherwise, I'd say just keep it a meta slot, and change it around according to who's playing what ex. Chill if you're seeing a shit ton of Mono Red Burn, or something like that.
-Matt
I usually run a mix of Duress, Meddling mage, extirpate and BEB. I would recommend the 3rd BEB for your 3rd flex because Goblins is a really bad MU. It also helps against zoo decks with Price of Progress and TES decks that pack burning wish etc. Its a very versatile card and one of the most commonly boarded in cards for me. Against 4 colour countertop, I board the BEBs in G3 if I see REBs from their side G2. They run 3-4 REBs, so having BEBs in the Jace Battle is very useful. @ 4th Jace, I'm definitely going to try that. Cheers, its an awesome card.
If you don't see a lot of mana-denial in your metagame than that seems pretty reasonable. Loam, Fact or Fiction, or even Jace are the cards I least want to see in my opening 7, so I try to minimize the possibility of that. Fetching for Tropical Island with another Tropical Island and Loam in hand have saved my ass too many times to count though. The mana-base is precarious enough without it being assisted by dedicated LD strategies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mana Drain
Also, with the SB strategies. That flex spot could easily be the Extirpate number 4. The format is predicated on graveyard strategies right now and I find it too useful not to have 4.