[Deck] Zoo

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Originally Posted by Anusien

The basics seem nice against Landstill if they clear the board and threaten to Wastelock you. It's unlikely that you can win in that situation anyway.

Mostly they're nice to have against Blood Moon type effects and opposing Path to Exile. I think you want 1-2 but 3 was too many in testing. I'd suggest losing the Forest.

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I agree with GUnit, you need the forest often enough to keep your Apes 2/3 and also if you lose the forest then fighting Dragon Stompy is gonna be one tough cookie. U'll definitely lose if they play Blood Moon unless you're lucky and they're unlucky (or keep bad hands).

I played a small tourney today, 12 people attended, I won 5-0-0. Match-ups:Merfolk (2-1), B/W aggro control (2-0), Merfolk (2-0), Landstill (2-1), Dragon Stompy (2-1).The list I played:

4 Kird Ape
4 Grim lavamancer
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Figure of Destiny
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Chain Lightning
3 Path To Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares

2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Wooded Foothils
3 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Canopy
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Price of Progress
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Volcanic Fallout
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Mainboard changes:
-3 Chain Lightning; Burn is good but I'm more and more disliking it because it's sorcery speed.
+1 Lightning Helix
+1 Gaddock Teeg
+1 undecided, maybe 2nd Teeg, or something silly like a wasteland. Any suggestions? I prefer either a permanent or a burn spell, preferably something unexpected.

About the sideboard:
Because I expected a lot of aggro and merfolk in particular I decided to run 2 Volcanic Fallout. Didn't expect combo (we always have a aggro meta) so I did not put in the 4th Teeg. I'm not sure about the Tormod's crypt apart from ichorid I don't really see any use for them. I might exchange those for Pithing Needle.

Any thoughts on Mark Larson's Zoo build that he took to 4th place at the SCG 5K on Sunday?

Maindeck:

Creatures
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Knight Of The Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path To Exile

Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Lands
4 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Krosan Grip
2 Price Of Progress
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Pyroclasm

Some notable things -- Steppe Lynx over Kird Ape, a strong presence for Grim Lavamancer, and Knight of the Reliquary and no Woolly Thoctar.

I haven't tested Lynx at all, but I can see where he's coming from -- it has more potential for pushing damage through. Do you think its strictly better, better in some matchups, or never really better?

In my latest builds of Zoo, I've been leaving out the Lavamancers. Looking over how they worked for him on Sunday, I'm definitely going to be testing them again.

I've been meaning to try KotR more, but it still seems weird to me to not run Thoctar, which has been one of my most powerful threats (and it is in the same casting cost slot that beats CounterTop). Is his list more in line with other people's experience lately, or do you still like Thoctar?

Well, KotR has synergy with Steppe Lynx, obviously. I certainly can't blame anyone for replacing Kird Ape. It's been the weakest link for a long time.

But vs Owen (43 lands) in the quarter finals he lost well due to a misplay or two, but also because he wasnt playing the apes. He drew 3 Lynx in a row and no land when if any of the 3 were a kird ape he would have won.

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Originally Posted by wweenieking

But vs Owen (43 lands) in the quarter finals he lost well due to a misplay or two, but also because he wasnt playing the apes. He drew 3 Lynx in a row and no land when if any of the 3 were a kird ape he would have won.

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Yeah, I know. I watched that match too. I wonder, though, how many games he won throughout the day by swinging with 4/5 Lynxes.

I'm not advocating. I'm just saying I can't blame a guy for trying something different in place of Kird Ape.

And I agree too that Kird Ape is the weakest part of the deck, but im not sure Lynx is the best replacement.

He would've won that match against 43lands if he didn't massively misplay his Chain Lightning, that wasn't Lynx's fault. Though I get that it was illustrating how Lynx can suck, we also didn't get to see the times where Lynx was probably sick for him. I'm not arguing one way or another for Lynx, but since Lynx is at its worst late in the game and the misplays were what caused it to get to the lategame, I don't think it's great data.

(For those that didn't see it, 43lands has 2x Diamond untapped and Zoo casts Chain to the face pre-combat. Lands taps the two Diamonds and fries his Nacatal. Lands won at one life.)

After seeing the amount of play mistakes in the top8 coverage, I wouldn't hold any of the card choices in the top8 decks as sacred.

That being said, I could see steppe lynx being, on average, better in this deck than the ape, given that his role is simply to get some early damage in, which the lynx seems better at given a reasonable draw.

Of course Knight of the Reliquary has a synergy with Steppe Lynx but I think 4 Grim Lavamancer aren't good with 3 KotR... You want to remove some lands for Grim and KotR is then more little than a Woolly Thoctar or what do you think?

i am not a huge fan of steppe lynx, he is bad top deck late game as we saw, he is below average w/o KoR, but he is amazing if you get the nut draw (stream of fetchlands)

also... he may get dream crushed by stifle. (on fetch or on his ability)
kird ape is a known commodity.

obv, steppe lynx is better w/ KoR but if u got KoR and he is unanswered, steppe lynx is just a win more at that point.

while in the booth with GGSLive crew, the zoo player was talking a lot of noise, saying how h.canopy is terrible, sylvan library is terrible etc...
i bet he wishes he could draw some cards other than steppe lynxes vs 43 lands.

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Originally Posted by Illissius

An interesting list is this.

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I've actually been wanting to use Elspeth for a long time, since it's a different type of threat for us, so it makes me happy that somebody is actually using her. However, I think she might be too slow for zoo.

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Originally Posted by sauce

i am not a huge fan of steppe lynx, he is bad top deck late game as we saw, he is below average w/o KoR, but he is amazing if you get the nut draw (stream of fetchlands)

also... he may get dream crushed by stifle. (on fetch or on his ability)
kird ape is a known commodity.

obv, steppe lynx is better w/ KoR but if u got KoR and he is unanswered, steppe lynx is just a win more at that point.

while in the booth with GGSLive crew, the zoo player was talking a lot of noise, saying how h.canopy is terrible, sylvan library is terrible etc...
i bet he wishes he could draw some cards other than steppe lynxes vs 43 lands.

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Yes, Steppe Lynx is best in a Sligh build. Sorry kittie, but this is not your home. I just hate drawing one in my opening hand and having one fetch only (keep in mind that that build played a higher fetch count). I just hate how unpredictable it is, particularly without a massive payoff.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

I've actually been wanting to use Elspeth for a long time, since it's a different type of threat for us, so it makes me happy that somebody is actually using her. However, I think she might be too slow for zoo.

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I think it's there to push through damage perhaps in a aggro heavy meta. Turning Nacatl into 6/6 flying is very interesting indeed.

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Originally Posted by MMogg

Yes, Steppe Lynx is best in a Sligh build. Sorry kittie, but this is not your home. I just hate drawing one in my opening hand and having one fetch only (keep in mind that that build played a higher fetch count). I just hate how unpredictable it is, particularly without a massive payoff.

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It's a pretty massive payoff actually, with some risks involved. Obviously it paid off for him in the 5K, as he made top 4, but we'll never know if the change to Lynx won him any games that Kird Ape wouldn't have unless he decides to chime in on the subject. I'm on the fence about it in Zoo, because Kird Ape is a better topdeck and blocker, but I think Steppe Lynx is a MUCH better card in general.

Personally, I just don't feel like I make enough land drops on average to make Lynx work. He's only better than Ape when you hit a fetchland, so you have to run a lot of fetchlands to get value out of him beyond what you would a kird ape, and the potential for him to be dead weight is just so huge, and since he can never block effectively unless you leave fetchlands untapped (And at that point, you're not getting the extra offensive damage in...), I just don't see the point it trying to play him.

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

Personally, I just don't feel like I make enough land drops on average to make Lynx work. He's only better than Ape when you hit a fetchland, so you have to run a lot of fetchlands to get value out of him beyond what you would a kird ape, and the potential for him to be dead weight is just so huge, and since he can never block effectively unless you leave fetchlands untapped (And at that point, you're not getting the extra offensive damage in...), I just don't see the point it trying to play him.

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Well if you hold the fetchland, he's attacking with the same P-T as Kird Ape. What exactly do you lose by playing more fetchlands btw? If the answer to Wasteland is more duals, wouldn't the answer to Stifle be more fetches? Kird Ape also has a huge potential to be dead weight by just being what it is. Kird Ape off the top isn't that much better than Steppe Lynx, because they're both horrible. In the first couple turns, Steppe Lynx is clearly better, which is what matters most in an aggro deck. He does more damage, that's the point in playing him.

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Originally Posted by troopatroop

Well if you hold the fetchland, he's attacking with the same P-T as Kird Ape. What exactly do you lose by playing more fetchlands btw? If the answer to Wasteland is more duals, wouldn't the answer to Stifle be more fetches? Kird Ape also has a huge potential to be dead weight by just being what it is. Kird Ape off the top isn't that much better than Steppe Lynx, because they're both horrible. In the first couple turns, Steppe Lynx is clearly better, which is what matters most in an aggro deck. He does more damage, that's the point in playing him.

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Unless you start with a 2 land hand and both are fetches. Then you can only use Lynx once, then he's a permanent 0/1 unless you topdeck another land. I tried goldfishing draws with him and I always seemed to get screwed. I wouldn't be so certain that Kird Ape is so bad in the first couple of turns. He can block fish and Goblins in the first turns, Lynx can't.

Maybe some number of steppe lynxes less than 4 is correct.

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Originally Posted by Sevryn

Maybe some number of steppe lynxes less than 4 is correct.

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But clearly a turn 1,2 or 3 Lynx is preferred to a turn 6,7 or 8 one, so wouldn't 4 x provide the highest possibility of drawing one? :confused:

whats next? kor skyfisher and plated geopede in legacy zoo?
if you have not noticed there was a lot of bad misplays in the legacy top8 (saw it in the coverage) and the guy with steppe lynxes did not win, thank god.

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Originally Posted by sauce

whats next? kor skyfisher and plated geopede in legacy zoo?
if you have not noticed there was a lot of bad misplays in the legacy top8 (saw it in the coverage) and the guy with steppe lynxes did not win, thank god.

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Yeah, we're probably overreacting. I honestly don't think that guy's list is anything special.

After reading Sam Black's report on StarCityGames it seems like the play quality at this tournament was rock-bottom.

Like, things as hilariously bad as a guy with 4 mana open casts Counterbalance, Dreadnaught, Stifle, in that order (to pretty much win the game). His opponent has a Cursecatcher on board...

The answer to stifle is LESS fetches, so that you can play a dual or basic while they have U up and fetch once they tap out or stifle will no longer be terrible for you. And leaving a fetch uncracked for any substantial amount of time is terribad if you need to be casting spells at the moment, so that doesn't even become an option until well into the game. Kird ape on the other hand, while unexciting, is at least consistent in his ability to beat for 2 and lock for profit, no matter what point in the game you are.

Anyway, with the return of 43 land to prinence I'm wondering if maybe fireblast isn't warranted again, not for it's speed, but for the abolity to cast it despite being tapped out when they get their lock going. I'm not a huge fab of the spell, but it's utility is apparent.

This got posted twice, sorry, please delete?

Wouldn't Price of Progress be a better choice over Fireblast if you want to beat Lands? It is effective against a few other of our weaker matchups, particularly postboard Landstill can be a hard matchup and it will likely hit for about 4-8 damage there depending on the list and how many basics they fetched up and won't cost you two mountains.

What hungry is referring to is getting wastelocked (eta: and ported) by 43lands.

Pretty hard to cast price of progress with a couple dudes in play and no lands.

...now I agree that PoP is probably better, but I believe that is what he was getting at.

Fireblast is a kinda neat idea against 43lands when you're trying to finish them under Chasm while your basics are tapped out by Ports. However, I don't think that it's a realistic plan -- not only does this require you to have two basic mountains in the deck, it also requires them to be at four life or less and to not be running a copy of Ghost Quarter. Sounds far too situational to be worthwhile.

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

What hungry is referring to is getting wastelocked by 43lands.

Pretty hard to cast price of progress with a couple dudes in play and no lands.

...now I agree that PoP is probably better, but I believe that is what he was getting at.

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You don't play basics?

@ Nelis, Wastelock in addition to their rishadan port action.

some 43 run ghost quarter too so running basics is not gonna help you.

Winter Orb in SB maybe? The card looks not useless against other control/manaintensive decks like Landstill...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

@ Nelis, Wastelock in addition to their rishadan port action.

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Oh ok, I get it. But still no problem casting a PoP, just not on the turn you draw it. But yeah, it's still a bitch, esp when they combine it with ghost Quarter.

Then my question is: how often will all that come up? (I have no experience playing 43 Lands). And will that deck see (that) much play anyway?

And there's always Crypt/relic for those who still run it in their SB's.

Will be going to a year-end tourney this Saturday. LED-Dredge has won 3 out of 4 major tournament so far this year. Heres my build:


Lands

2 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
________
20

Non-Crit Spells

2 Sylvan Library
2 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
3 Bolts
3 Chain Lightning
2 Call of the Herd
___________
16

Crits


3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goyf
3 Kird Ape (or Teeg)
4 Nacatl
4 Pridemage
3 Figure
2 Knight of Reliquary
1 Woolly Thoctar
_________
24



SB:


4 REB
1 Relic of Progen
2 Rav Trap
1 Tormods
2 Swords
2 Choke
3 Krosan Grip

Comments please?


My 2 brothers, btw, will be playing Goblines and Merfolk. We have already crafted a strategy against Dredge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DCTopTeam

Will be going to a year-end tourney this Saturday. LED-Dredge has won 3 out of 4 major tournament so far this year. Heres my build:


Lands

2 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
________
20

Non-Crit Spells

2 Sylvan Library
2 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
3 Bolts
3 Chain Lightning
2 Call of the Herd
___________
16

Crits


3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goyf
3 Kird Ape (or Teeg)
4 Nacatl
4 Pridemage
3 Figure
2 Knight of Reliquary
1 Woolly Thoctar
_________
24



SB:


4 REB
1 Relic of Progen
2 Rav Trap
1 Tormods
2 Swords
2 Choke
3 Krosan Grip

Comments please?


My 2 brothers, btw, will be playing Goblines and Merfolk. We have already crafted a strategy against Dredge.

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tbh this list looks like a nightmare to me... 5 three drops? Do you play in a meta totally devoid of wasteland? And at that point, why 2 kotr 1 thoctar? why not 3 kotr or 3 thoctar? And Call of the Herd is just slow and unimpressive in the modern day legacy. It's not like those tokens can really put up a fight against goyfs, and EE is all over the place. And if you're that worried about dredge in this tournament, why not run more than 4 hate cards? Also, 3 bolts 3 chains!? Seriously!? Bolt is entirely superior to chain. PLEASE don't go to a tournament with your burn suite looking like that, I BEG YOU.

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You can usually get 43 land to 4 life by the time they can get chasm lock active, and usually there's still a window of time before they can get all your non basics killed/ghost quarter running where fireblast would work.

And yes, PoP would be better, but I'm already running that. ;p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DCTopTeam

Comments please?

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Personally I'd change the following

-2 Call of the Herd (mana intensive, outclassed, etc)
-1 Kird Ape / Gaddock Teeg / Figure of Destiny
-1 Woolly Thoctar (I'm of the camp that Reliquary is better, judging by the #s of the split you are too, so I'd just run 3)

+1 Lightning Bolt
+1 Chain Lightning / Lightning Helix (if expecting a bunch of Red or Chalice of the Void, I'd add the Helix, if not probably the Chain Lightning)
+1 Knight of the Reliquary
+1 Red Source (Arid Mesa or Taiga probably; Mesa probably makes more sense w/ Grim, Sylvan and Reliquary)

Many many thanks!!

Already fixed the list. Added +1 Ape, +1 Chain and +1 Bolt; -1 Thoctar, -2 Call of the Herd. Regarding the Dredge thing, I was thinking of maindeck Teeg. I plan on removing the two libraries for in place of two Teegs main. Would that help?

Also added +1 Plateau -1 Savannah

Don't cut library, it's the most unfair card in the deck. You'd be better off cutting apes or burn for teegs. You've got 13 1 drops atm and probably only 11 are needed. But really, teeg is only a small speed bump for dredge when not combined with other hate. Yes he shuts down dread return, but he doesn't stop the rest of their deck from doing shenanigans. you're better off fighting dredge with a solid SB.

Greetings all. While this will be the zillionth zoo list this will be the first one that I have posted. While the list is standard, I would really appreciate if someone might look it over and see if I have missed something. My overall reason to use this particular list is to survive LD/Land disruption a little better than other lists since there is a lot of LD in my meta. My goal was to get rid of as many casting cost symbols in the deck while maintaining the strength that keeps zoo winning. In LD scenarios I move much more towards RG and cut out as much white from the deck as possible. Does anyone have any experiences or suggestions when facing down LD?

Thanks.
JKat


// Lands
1 [SHM] Forest (1)
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [9E] Plains (1)
1 [CST] Mountain (2)
3 [b] Taiga
3 [A] Plateau
1 [b] Savannah

// Creatures
4 [FNM] Kird Ape
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
4 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [REW] Lightning Helix
3 [LG] Chain Lightning
2 [LG] Sylvan Library
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

SB
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Umezawas Jitte
2 Price of Progress
3 Gaddock Teag
2 Krosan Grip
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast

That's almost my list. I'd say:

-1 Chain Lightning
+1 Lightning Helix

Instant speed is better, lifegain is better, CMC2 is better. (I went from 3 to 4 recently)

I have 1 Plateau less and a Arid Mesa more so I am a tad better equipped to find the sometimes much need basics. I don't have many mana issues and I can't remember ever needing a 3rd copy of plateau but I guess its a matter or personal preference.