[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by Godmode

I think some of you are missing the point of the deck. The deck it's all about no interaction at all. Why would you put:
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble

...That's just stupid.

What you could do is, to add 4 Gitaxian Probe in the 2nd game as a suprise, because after the 1st game all the counterspells are going out, or at least the majority, because there's no point to use them since there's no intereaction with the deck... So the 4 Probe would probably be a good surprise card to put in the MD after the 1st game. It's good to fight the Gy removal since it can help a lot by speeding up the dredge mechanism, and it's perfect against combo/storm decks. Bloodghasts and Dakmor could easilly get replaced by the Probes too...

About the hate, it has been like this for some months now... All the decks have about 2-3 relics at maximum, and randomlly we'll see some 3-4 LotV. I don't believe that the hate it's gonna change that much just because of dredge and reanimator sucess in the last tournaments. Maybe we'll see more 3 relic +1 tormod's crypt or something like that but let's not forget about the real problems to fight in the current meta... it's not graveyard.

Anyways, has been proven that the more reliable Dredge list it's the Richard Feldman's one. 9th @ GP, 4th @ BoM, top8 @ some SCGs...

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You're not making any sense at all. You're saying it doesn't make sense to run 16 cantrips because it's just stupid? Why would you not want speed the deck up?

Also, this deck is much more about interaction than regular dredge. Regular dredge just tries to combo out, this deck is forced to dredge slowly and make good blocks with Moeba's and Nether Shadow (which should definitely by a 4-off btw).

I've not seen any proof that some other list you're referring to is more reliable. If you're referring to it's results for that, they are irrelevant because no one ran Manaless Ichorid forever.

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Originally Posted by Godmode

I think some of you are missing the point of the deck. The deck it's all about no interaction at all. Why would you put:
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble

...That's just stupid.

What you could do is, to add 4 Gitaxian Probe in the 2nd game as a suprise, because after the 1st game all the counterspells are going out, or at least the majority, because there's no point to use them since there's no intereaction with the deck... So the 4 Probe would probably be a good surprise card to put in the MD after the 1st game. It's good to fight the Gy removal since it can help a lot by speeding up the dredge mechanism, and it's perfect against combo/storm decks. Bloodghasts and Dakmor could easilly get replaced by the Probes too...

About the hate, it has been like this for some months now... All the decks have about 2-3 relics at maximum, and randomlly we'll see some 3-4 LotV. I don't believe that the hate it's gonna change that much just because of dredge and reanimator sucess in the last tournaments. Maybe we'll see more 3 relic +1 tormod's crypt or something like that but let's not forget about the real problems to fight in the current meta... it's not graveyard.

Anyways, has been proven that the more reliable Dredge list it's the Richard Feldman's one. 9th @ GP, 4th @ BoM, top8 @ some SCGs...

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It's entirely unnecessary (and unwise) to remove interaction entirely. Many things in this deck can be countered by Stifle, yet that doesn't make them stop being worthwhile. Gitaxian Probe can be hit by Mental Misstep, but the only commonly-played counter that hits Urza's Bauble and Mishra's Bauble is Force of Will. I think even Dredge is happy with a 0-mana Hymn to Tourach, but even if we weren't it's still fine to run because all that is lost against control is a discard (not a draw/dredge, unless you run out the Bauble with nothing in the graveyard, which is just as bad as having it countered).

In any case, what is necessary to beat decks packing counters is to begin dredging before attempting spells, which is why even Rausch's manaless list packs 4 Cabal Therapy and 4 Dread Return. What is not necessary is to abstain from spells entirely.

As to the most reliable dredge deck (assuming you mean consistent), it's almost certainly some Manaless build. These decks have over a 90% chance of having a keepable opening hand, and a typical clock (if built for speed) that kills on Turn 3, basically unstoppably (i.e. only graveyard hate really stops the kill).

As to Feldman's Dredge deck, there are some interesting things...

The first of which is that Erik Hegemann's dredge list from BoM is a Feldman list only in the main-deck. The sideboard utilizes a variety of answer cards that Feldman intentionally eschews.
http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1441

The second point I want to make is merely a reminder that Feldman really does reject any sort of anti-hate package.

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Originally Posted by Richard Feldman

To answer this, I “dredged up” some old tournament reports of mine and Max McCall's. Between us, we encountered pretty much every commonly played graveyard hate card in those tournaments—from Leyline of the Void to Jotun Grunt and the many artifacts in between, often in multiples—and still ended up with a winning record across our post-board games.

I went game by game and counted the number of times either of us got value out of a reactive sideboard card. The final tally?

Zero.

Between my Day One and Day Two at GP Chicago and Max's winning one event and Top 8ing another, neither of us ever used a single reactive sideboard card to get ahead in any meaningful way, let alone to actually win a game.

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from http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...Dredge_Fu.html

The third point, and perhaps the pivotal one, is that if you actually go back and read his GP Chicago reports
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...cy_Dredge.html
and
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...x_Chicago.html
He repeatedly talks about getting tremendous value out of his reactive sideboard, gushing about Pithing Needle in particular.

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Originally Posted by Richard Feldman

The Needles are for Tormod's Crypt and Relic, and I boarded them in for almost every match I played at the GP. They easily won me more games than any other sideboard card.

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Keep in mind that this was written two weeks after GP Chicago, and his 'Fearless Dredge' article did not appear until over two years later.

There are two obvious possibilities regarding his much-touted Fearless Dredge: one is that despite claiming to have checked the report, Richard got lazy and also forgot about all the times he gained something from a sideboard card; the other is that he simply didn't care and wanted to squeeze a (fourth?) article out of his GP Chicago run.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

Also, this deck is much more about interaction than regular dredge. Regular dredge just tries to combo out, this deck is forced to dredge slowly and make good blocks with Moeba's and Nether Shadow (which should definitely by a 4-off btw).

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Nether Shadow is okay, but really he's filler. The powerful plays in the deck are Narcomoeba + Dread Return, and Ichorid + Bridge from Below. The particular list I posted is a bit more combo-focused, which is part of why Nether Shadow is unnecessary. I generally get 3 creatures to Dread Return by the time I would want to (aka Turn 3).

Given this, cutting him for more cantrips essentially increases the density of meaningful plays. Obviously the deck needs some amount of beef, but with the Dredge mechanic each cantrip is a 0-mana Ancestral Recall if the game is going poorly.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

You're not making any sense at all. You're saying it doesn't make sense to run 16 cantrips because it's just stupid? Why would you not want speed the deck up?

Also, this deck is much more about interaction than regular dredge. Regular dredge just tries to combo out, this deck is forced to dredge slowly and make good blocks with Moeba's and Nether Shadow (which should definitely by a 4-off btw).

I've not seen any proof that some other list you're referring to is more reliable. If you're referring to it's results for that, they are irrelevant because no one ran Manaless Ichorid forever.

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The point of the deck it's: no interaction at all - Why? Because this way you don't get counterfucked into oblivion and you're not getting wastelanded to death, wich are the things that crush Mana Dredge builds.
If you play those cards to speed up the deck you're likely to get murdered by counterspells just like the standart mana build, so there would be no point in playing the deck.
When you say "this deck is much more about interaction than regular dredge" what the fuck do you mean by that? The standart builds, unless they go DDD in the begining, they're going to play discart outlets, draw spells and DR/therapy.

If you're new to the deck I hope I clarified you a little, if you're just looking for someone to argue about nonsense then fuck off.

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Originally Posted by Godmode

The point of the deck it's: no interaction at all - Why? Because this way you don't get counterfucked into oblivion and you're not getting wastelanded to death, wich are the things that crush Mana Dredge builds.
If you play those cards to speed up the deck you're likely to get murdered by counterspells just like the standart mana build, so there would be no point in playing the deck.
When you say "this deck is much more about interaction than regular dredge" what the fuck do you mean by that? The standart builds, unless they go DDD in the begining, they're going to play discart outlets, draw spells and DR/therapy.

If you're new to the deck I hope I clarified you a little, if you're just looking for someone to argue about nonsense then fuck off.

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Relax, man.

I believe he was saying that the mana list doesn't really seek to interact with its opponent, it just tries to goldfish them out. The manaless list engages in a lot more creature combat before the turn it actually wins.

In any case, getting "counterfucked" isn't a big deal if you're already dredging. At that point, you've basically already won the game against most counterspell-heavy decks, and throwing out baubles as counter-bait is actually good, since it clears the way for Cabal Therapy and Dread Return.

@ajfirecracker

I think we're on the same page. Yes, obviously you won't cut all the interaction because you still have the DR/therapy. And after the 1st game it's very likely that all the counterspells or at least the majority it's going out of the MD, so to bring in the Probes it's the best option for the deck and it's cool because you can take it out for the bloodghast/dakmor. Obviously the deck you're fighting it's gonna limit your decisions on that, but the 4 Probes in the SB sounds very helpfull. I haven't tested it yet but it seems good against Gy hate, combo/storm, surprise factor, etc. I don't think you don't need more speed than that, because the manaless it's not much slower than the mana list - even Steven Brill said it in his report - and a lot of the draw spells you play with the mana lists are getting countered easily so in the end, the speed difrence it's not that big.

Edit: I prefer Probe just because it's faster and more sneaky than the baubles.

And btw I'm not even mad, it's just annoying when someone says that you're not making any sense and then follows that statement by saying a bunch of nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Godmode

@ajfirecracker

I think we're on the same page. Yes, obviously you won't cut all the interaction because you still have the DR/therapy. And after the 1st game it's very likely that all the counterspells or at least the majority it's going out of the MD, so to bring in the Probes it's the best option for the deck and it's cool because you can take it out for the bloodghast/dakmor. Obviously the deck you're fighting it's gonna limit your decisions on that, but the 4 Probes in the SB sounds very helpfull. I haven't tested it yet but it seems good against Gy hate, combo/storm, surprise factor, etc. I don't think you don't need more speed than that, because the manaless it's not much slower than the mana list - even Steven Brill said it in his report - and a lot of the draw spells you play with the mana lists are getting countered easily so in the end, the speed difrence it's not that big.

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4 Gitaxian Probe in the sideboard is a lot like infinity in that a well-tuned list cannot possibly have that much spare space.

Rausch's build can Dread Return as early as T3, but it doesn't ever close the game before Turn 4 (as best I can tell) and often not until T5+. That's a lot of turns for the opponent to draw an out. The other issue is that with so little draw (only 4 Street Wraith) the deck doesn't necessarily hit the actual good stuff all that consistently. Rausch's build, in my opinion, is best as a Dread Return deck, which is what justifies running so many bazillion creatures. The problem, however, is that with 'only' 4 Dread Return and virtually no draw effects, you're far from guaranteed to see a Dread Return in a timely manner. Add to that the other cards you want (Bridge from Below chief among them), and it's not hard to see how card draw powers up the deck by digging for the cards that actually matter.

The problem with adding more Main Deck speed to the build it's that you're going to transform it into a deck that has the same weaknesses as the mana builds. But I thought of someting that might work, wich is instead of the 3 Dakmor and 4 Bloodghast, you would add 4 Probe and maybe 2 Sun Titan and 1 Sphinx of the Lost Truths. This, maybe, would solve the problem of overwhelming counterspells. You have more resources to use draw spells, even if you fail to resolve the Probe, you would use the DR(wich can't be affected by MM) to return the Titan and with the titan you would use the Probes in the Gy. It's a faster plan than the one with the Bloodghast original build.

You could even use this plan as a sideboard/plan B... whatever.

Edit: This way you could use the dead Probes in the Gy but just boarding in a bunch of SotLT could be more explosive and more effective.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

You're not making any sense at all. You're saying it doesn't make sense to run 16 cantrips because it's just stupid? Why would you not want speed the deck up?

Also, this deck is much more about interaction than regular dredge. Regular dredge just tries to combo out, this deck is forced to dredge slowly and make good blocks with Moeba's and Nether Shadow (which should definitely by a 4-off btw).

I've not seen any proof that some other list you're referring to is more reliable. If you're referring to it's results for that, they are irrelevant because no one ran Manaless Ichorid forever.

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Are you actually using your SB at all? You may want to try SBing between 4 Serum Powder, 4 Lion's Eye Diamond, 4 Cephalid Coliseum and 4 Deep Analysis in the MD and then SBing those out for Baubles and co. I think you'll increase your overall match up percentage this way, because you can more consistently race combo decks and really fast aggro decks

Also, the alternate Dread Return targets are fucking worthless, cut that shit for the full set of Phantasmagorian and Nether Shadow, because running short on those post-board puts you at a much bigger disadvantage than any marginal utility the alternate targets are worth.

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Originally Posted by Godmode

@ajfirecracker

I think we're on the same page. Yes, obviously you won't cut all the interaction because you still have the DR/therapy. And after the 1st game it's very likely that all the counterspells or at least the majority it's going out of the MD, so to bring in the Probes it's the best option for the deck and it's cool because you can take it out for the bloodghast/dakmor. Obviously the deck you're fighting it's gonna limit your decisions on that, but the 4 Probes in the SB sounds very helpfull. I haven't tested it yet but it seems good against Gy hate, combo/storm, surprise factor, etc. I don't think you don't need more speed than that, because the manaless it's not much slower than the mana list - even Steven Brill said it in his report - and a lot of the draw spells you play with the mana lists are getting countered easily so in the end, the speed difrence it's not that big.

Edit: I prefer Probe just because it's faster and more sneaky than the baubles.

And btw I'm not even mad, it's just annoying when someone says that you're not making any sense and then follows that statement by saying a bunch of nonsense.

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Right. I hope you realise that interaction isn't limited by just running your spells into your opponents counters. This deck often produces difficult situations in the attack step, and it is going to require you to think ahead and consider scenario's where you are going to dredge into certain cards in the following turn. I've lost games where I decided to not trade for a 1/1 guy, and proceeded to get killed because of it, because I was unable to block with multiple Bridges in my graveyard.

You claimed running more cantrips is just stupid and backed it up by saying that they're only good game two because counters come out. This is what doesn't make any sense because:

- Far from every deck runs counters
- Your opponent will not always have the counter when you have the cantrip
- Many opponents, especially game one, will not counter a Mishra's Bauble in fear of whatever you're going to play from the graveyard. Wether this is the right thing to do or not isn't the question, just that most people won't.
- Your cantrips are only good once you already have a dredger in your graveyard. For that reason, getting countered is not nearly as bad as it is for mana dredge.
- You play Cabal Theray and Dread Return, which you'd rather resolve than any given cantrip (but this point was already made)

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Are you actually using your SB at all? You may want to try SBing between 4 Serum Powder, 4 Lion's Eye Diamond, 4 Cephalid Coliseum and 4 Deep Analysis in the MD and then SBing those out for Baubles and co. I think you'll increase your overall match up percentage this way, because you can more consistently race combo decks and really fast aggro decks

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I'm not necessarily defending the 16 cantrip list, just arguing that it's not 'just stupid'. SBing between manaless and mana-ish dredge is not a bad idea. I'm not sure if the right way to go is to run the cards you listed in the main or the side, and I'm not sure if those cards give you enough consisntency.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

Right. I hope you realise that interaction isn't limited by just running your spells into your opponents counters. This deck often produces difficult situations in the attack step, and it is going to require you to think ahead and consider scenario's where you are going to dredge into certain cards in the following turn. I've lost games where I decided to not trade for a 1/1 guy, and proceeded to get killed because of it, because I was unable to block with multiple Bridges in my graveyard.

You claimed running more cantrips is just stupid and backed it up by saying that they're only good game two because counters come out. This is what doesn't make any sense because:

- Far from every deck runs counters
- Your opponent will not always have the counter when you have the cantrip
- Many opponents, especially game one, will not counter a Mishra's Bauble in fear of whatever you're going to play from the graveyard. Wether this is the right thing to do or not isn't the question, just that most people won't.
- Your cantrips are only good once you already have a dredger in your graveyard. For that reason, getting countered is not nearly as bad as it is for mana dredge.
- You play Cabal Theray and Dread Return, which you'd rather resolve than any given cantrip (but this point was already made)



I'm not necessarily defending the 16 cantrip list, just arguing that it's not 'just stupid'. SBing between manaless and mana-ish dredge is not a bad idea. I'm not sure if the right way to go is to run the cards you listed in the main or the side, and I'm not sure if those cards give you enough consisntency.

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The original Manaless Dredge + Phantasmagorian is extremely explosive, you'll improve your combo and aggro match ups at the cost of your control and aggro-control match ups game 1, which is a fair trade off.

I agree the 16 cantrip list isn't stupid, in fact I think any who thinks that the 16 cantrip list is stupid is ignorant. The only question is whether or not the individual cantrips are worth the threat density they replace, because Gigapede, Greater Mossdog and Darkblast and Chancellor of the Forge all give uncounterable added consistency.

I think you really have to take into consideration whether or not LED is worth MDing by itself or whether or not the counterable cantrips are better SBed in assuming the villain SBs out Force of Will, Daze and Mental Misstep. I mean the deck really doesn't care about SBing against hate, so it's just a question of making the SB a part of the MD and SBing out the least effective parts of the engine vs counters and/or hate.

Also that "Daze" Chancellor just seems really good vs everything as an uncounterable Time Walk.

Manaless Dredge folds pretty hard to Combo, when other Dredge iterations can use Leyline of Sanctity. I think your pretty lucky to not fight a combo deck going through a tourney gauntlet seeing as how those seem like a Auto matchloss for a list like Nich's or any of the Manaless Dredge really.

If someone could have some kind of base list to work with, or atleast a composite list since that is what Dredge is looking like. When your playing Dredge anyways you want to be low key and see if you can convince some people to replace those Leylines they were going to run in the tourney for some QQ

What about running Mental Misstep in the sideboard to hate out everything good in Legacy for free?

Tested my first match of Manaless Dredge and drew a no dredger hand, when I run the full sets of everything standard plus Shambling Shell. I also have the x16 Cantrips but it was against Reanimator and he goes turn 1 entomb into turn two reanimate Blazing Archon ftw since I don't have Angel of Despair. Game two I should have mulled till I found Leyline of the Void but didnt and lose to a Entomb->Sphinx of the Steel.

Maybe a sideboard like..

x4Leyline of Sanctity
x4 Leyline of the Void
x4 Contagion
x3 Mental Misstep

Misstep covers Relic's, Rituals, crap that randomly makes you lose. Sanctity handles Tormod's and Rave plus Tendrils. Void is pro answer to Dredge and Breakfeast. Contagion is our other out besides Angel or something to Jailer for some reason. I don't think the answer to our woes is making a sideboard that doesn't effect the DDD plan unless you want to be like Nich. Atleast this plan of leyline answers combo and artifact hate.

Leylines dont answer combo, because combo decks like TES or Tide will just wish for removal at some point in the game. At best, Leyline just Time Walks you for one turn and that's the problem with "anti-hate." In the end, you just end up SBing out business for answers vs hate they may or may not have and all your answers really do is convert their hate into tempo. It's just best to plow right thru' it with abandon.

As far as the combo match up itself, the only way you stand a chance is to run the Serum/LED/Coliseum/Analysis MD because out racing them guarantees the win where Leyline doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Leylines dont answer combo, because combo decks like TES or Tide will just wish for removal at some point in the game. At best, Leyline just Time Walks you for one turn and that's the problem with "anti-hate." In the end, you just end up SBing out business for answers vs hate they may or may not have and all your answers really do is convert their hate into tempo. It's just best to plow right thru' it with abandon.

As far as the combo match up itself, the only way you stand a chance is to run the Serum/LED/Coliseum/Analysis MD because out racing them guarantees the win where Leyline doesn't.

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Thats terrible logic on how to fight storm. Leyline stops them like a wasteland would if they have to spend mana to Wish for a situational card to spend mana to destroy the enchantment. Having answers to Tormod's Crypt and Ravenous Trap sounds good to me. What do you want to do then? No have any hate at all game two and decide what to board in game three because you can't have Baubles then?

At best? At best Leyline wins you the match because they could'nt find Burning Wish/Cunning Wish fast enough and did not have have some kind of hate besides Tormod's Crypt so they lose. Thats the at best. I Time Walk myself when I mulligan to find a Leyline of the Void on the other dredge deck that is not expecting any hate.

Turning something into tempo for a storm deck? Tempo to a storm deck is getting to the number 9 and playing a four mana sorcery.

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Originally Posted by Shax

Thats terrible logic on how to fight storm. Leyline stops them like a wasteland would if they have to spend mana to Wish for a situational card to spend mana to destroy the enchantment. Having answers to Tormod's Crypt and Ravenous Trap sounds good to me. What do you want to do then? No have any hate at all game two and decide what to board in game three because you can't have Baubles then?

At best? At best Leyline wins you the match because they could'nt find Burning Wish/Cunning Wish fast enough and did not have have some kind of hate besides Tormod's Crypt so they lose. Thats the at best. I Time Walk myself when I mulligan to find a Leyline of the Void on the other dredge deck that is not expecting any hate.

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I seriously doubt you've actually played Ichorid vs Storm, because Storm does not give a shit about Leyline of Sanctity, you will only Time Walk them by playing it and then they will go off with Ad Nauseam, draw into removal and kill you anyway. It's not just about the wishes either, you can bet your ass they'll SB in removal as well for their otherwise worthless disruption.

You really should read Richard Feldman's article on Dredge and "anti-hate," more often than not just raw dogging it gets the job done better. Good players diversify their hate too much for Leyline of Sanctity to be effective, anybody packing 4xTormod's Crypt is just an idiot.

You can go raw dog the Dredge deck all the way around the world. :cool: Just because someone who is opinonated to get paid by SCG's writes a article telling you to use Tarpan in your ANT deck for aggro matches to win the big jewel encrusted booger, should you?

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Originally Posted by Shax

You can go raw dog the Dredge deck all the way around the world. :cool: Just because someone who is opinonated to get paid by SCG's writes a article telling you to use Tarpan in your ANT deck for aggro matches to win the big jewel encrusted booger, should you?

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He's right. If you time walk yourself by dropping Leyline, storm is just going to cast AdN at 18 and win from there easily. I've not tested boarding into mana dredge, but I'm not convinced it's going to work out very well considering you have to spend your entire board and that it won't be easy to keep the deck consistent.

It seems that Misstep is a better sb plan, as you play it after you're dredging and really only LED/Petal hands play through it.

Well, Manaless lists are scooping pretty hard to T1 Thoughtseize. It's a timewalk for 2 life, mostly because Manaless Dredge is always on the play. And it can't pack Leylines for protection, since it would disrupt the strategy the same way. And by the way, none tested LED + Deep Analysis in Manaless Dredge? The whole point is not spending any mana?

Manaless Dredge MIGHT be better or even to Mana/LED Dredge when playing against BLUE control decks. All other matchups, like those new BW Stoneblade, Deadguy Ale and Rock variants it's just an auto-scoop, since they pack enough discard to make Manaless Dredge cry. Or you can just have a hand with 7 Dredgers :D

I'm not hating the list. I just don't think it's optimal because it have a nice BUGstill/UW Stoneblade matchup. Legacy isn't only blue.

Mental Misstep is much, much better in the manaless Dredge sideboard than Leyline of Sanctity. It's better against storm, better against Relic of Progenitus, and better against everything else. I like it.

Elaborating: Leyline of Sanctity does nothing against Tendrils except stop the Duress party and stop him from casting Tendrils of Agony without first bouncing the Leyline. Sure, that costs mana, but mana is a precious resource for a Tendrils player only early in the game. Early on, Wasteland can stop him from cantripping as aggressively, and can prevent him from having the mana to cast a big engine spell. Leyline does neither. Once he's resolved an engine spell (usually Ad Nauseam), he typically doesn't care very much about mana. Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, and Dark Ritual all give him the flexibility to go off against virtually any lock. You might be thinking: "Wait! I've seen plenty of games where a Tendrils player dies looking for mana off of Ad Nauseam, or is very tight even post combo!" I have too. The thing is, the common factor in those games is that the Tendrils player has to "go for it" earlier than he might otherwise due to pressure from his opponent. If we're skipping a turn to play Leyline, we're applying exponentially less pressure (Dredge increases resources by an order of magnitude every few turns, so skipping on of our first turns pushes us back a single turn, but that single turn would always be the most pressure, and the most damage out of any of our turns, we just don't see that because we never actually reach the turn we skip). Applying less pressure => the tendrils player can find the extra blue mana and the Chain of Vapor to win.

As far as boarding into a Mana plan, I think the only really reasonable card from that strategy is Lion's Eye Diamond, as you can play it, play any Baubles, cast a Gitaxian Probe, respond with any Street Wraiths, respond to that whole mess by cracking LED to dump a dredger in the graveyard. Seems okay against combo (which basically never has hate), terrible otherwise.

I like Chancellor of the Annex (free Daze guy) against combo out of the sideboard (mostly b.c he has dual value as a reanimation target) but otherwise I think he just doesn't do enough. Your opponents will either make their Chrome Mox cost 1 or they'll run their worst spell into it. Aether Vial and Sensei's Divining Top, for example, are both too slow to be awesome against Dredge (even manaless), are widely played, and cost 1.

@Final Fortune
Regarding Feldman Dredge (as I said earlier on this very page, scroll up), two weeks after GP Chicago he said he was sure Pithing Needle was "correct" in the sideboard, and "They easily won <Feldman> more games than any other sideboard card.". It was only two years later that he decided GP Chicago had been won despite his sideboard, rather than because of it. Obviously hate has been diversified since then, but that just makes Ancient Grudge the weapon of choice (usually) rather than Pithing Needle.

Regarding Duress effects:
Most of the decks that Duress us Turn 1 gain a turn by doing so. Most of those decks we beat by more than a single turn. (Tendrils being the major exception) Keep in mind that Hymn to Tourach will usually be worse than blank against us, so really we're typically looking at 1-2 Duress effects over the course of the game in a list with 6-8 such effects. And, the effect is only worth 1/4/-1/2 a turn if we've already started dredging (on average), so if they don't have it T1 and use it that turn, we're in the clear. Now consider how many of the slower, Thoughtseize/Duress lists run Mox Diamond/Chrome Mox to jump up the curve and play a sweet 2-drop on turn 1 (i.e. the reason BW exists at all; Confidant / Mystic / Bitterblossom).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

I'm not hating the list. I just don't think it's optimal because it have a nice BUGstill/UW Stoneblade matchup. Legacy isn't only blue.

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Hilarious things: Those are both blue decks. Those are both decks that Manaless Dredge slaughters.
Edit: Unless you were saying that there's more to Legacy than those decks... like all the aggro decks we slaughter?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ajfirecracker

Regarding Duress effects:
Most of the decks that Duress us Turn 1 gain a turn by doing so. Most of those decks we beat by more than a single turn. (Tendrils being the major exception) Keep in mind that Hymn to Tourach will usually be worse than blank against us, so really we're typically looking at 1-2 Duress effects over the course of the game in a list with 6-8 such effects. And, the effect is only worth 1/4/-1/2 a turn if we've already started dredging (on average), so if they don't have it T1 and use it that turn, we're in the clear. Now consider how many of the slower, Thoughtseize/Duress lists run Mox Diamond/Chrome Mox to jump up the curve and play a sweet 2-drop on turn 1 (i.e. the reason BW exists at all; Confidant / Mystic / Bitterblossom).

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T1 Thoughtseize/Duress is a pretty solid choice for any BW deck, since any good player is careful about protecting their dudes from Counterspells. And those decks are pretty good candidates to run Leyline of the Void as well. If a Thoughtseize hits, you'll draw blank turn 2, and dredge only in turn 4... Where there'll usually be a Dark Confidant doing what he does best, or a batterskull ready to blast people.

DDD isn't only applied to Manaless Dredge, and that's a thought MANY players can't see, because they're hungry to cast their Breakthrough as soon as possible. If people were patient and knew how to bait countermagic and hate, Dredge would be very well placed in Top8's arround the world.

To clarify, I'm not suggesting we SB into the Serum Powder, Lion's Eye Diamond, Cephalid Coliseum and Deep Analysis package, I'm suggesting we SB out of it. Playing Lands and 1cc outlets and draw clearly is not the way to go, because you will blindly walk an outlet or draw into a Mental Misstep and triple Time Walk yourself for the trouble.

The question is how do we maximize our win percentage game 1 vs the field and how do we minimize hate games 2 and 3, and personally I believe the answer is to SB into redundant Dredgers like Greater Mossdog, Darkblast and Life from the Loam to ensure 2 Dredgers post board versus hate. So, what's the fastest version of this deck vs. the field and what's the most resilikent version of this deck vs. aggro-control + hate. Answer that, and you have your 75 card deck.

As an aside, how is Gigapede for the people who are playing it? It only seems good when you draw Gigapede and Phantasmagorian in tandem or when you Dredge into Gigapede and can use it to discard a Troll, Imp or business spell instead of Dredging off a Thug or Shell. I'm not opposed to it, but I do question how much speed and consistency it adds to the deck, because unlike Phantasmagorian you're not just clearly up +2 cards in the graveyard.

Since suggesting Phantasmagorian (pg 81.) and Manaless list (pg 82.), I've had time to think and playtest more. I had originally suggested Bloodghast, but I've moved away from it -- it is simply too slow. By the time you would choose to dredge a Dakmor over a GGT, you should already have plenty of other Free Dudes.

I've tried lots of configs, like running only 2 DR targets, or Baubles, etc. This is where I am at:

// Dredgers - 16
4 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll

// Free Discard Outlets - 8
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Gigapede

// Free Dudes - 12
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid

// Free Draw - 8
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe

// DR-Package - 8
4 Dread Return
1 River Kelpie
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

// GY-Goodies - 8
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Contagion
SB: 4 Mental Misstep
SB: 1 Blazing Archon
SB: 1 Terastodon
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

The general gameplan is to DDD with acceleration from Free Draw so that you can DR on Kelpie/Sphinx, which usually lets you essentially win on the same turn, as you chain your deck and either Iona or FKZ.

I've decided to keep the probes, which unlike the Baubles, let's you DDD cleanly. The increase in speed is necessary, I think. Probe is amazing with Therapy, which is what pushes it over the edge for being an acceptable card, despite the fact that it is a foothold for decks packing permission to interact with you.

I took Gigapede out, originally. I've since put it back in. I find Phantasmagorian so excellent in this deck that you want Gigapede just to maximize Phantasmagorian. Gigapede has other uses though. There are times when you have no Phantasmagorian (woe unto you), and Gigapede lets you pitch trapped, yet vital, cards (Bridges, often enough). It also functions as a way to help trigger Nether Shadows more consistently, as you can turn Gigapedes which are below Nether Shadows into any creature on top of your graveyard.

I'm still not completely convinced by the deck, but in many cases it is better than my usual LEDless, which has been fighting an uphill battle against a MM-infested metagame.



peace,
4eak

@4eak, Contagion is a waste of space, the Baubles are worth running but certainly not as great as Street Wraith or Gitaxian Probe, and you really shouldn't need Gigapede, especially not solely as extra Phantasmagorian. You realize you can respond to Phantastagorian's discard ability with another instance of it, right? Alternately, you can discard a dredger with him, in response cycle Street Wraith, and discard that same dredger with that same Phantasmagorian.

@ ajfirecracker

Multiple activations of Phantasmagorian without passing priority are excellent. They don't always empty your hand though, which can be a problem.

Hand Count - Activations - Remainder
8 - 2 - 2 (I'm sure most of the time Discard down is fine)
7 - 2 - 1
6 - 2 - 0
5 - 1 - 2
4 - 1 - 1
3 - 1 - 0
2 - 0 - 2
1 - 0 - 1

Obviously, you still get to pitch most of the cards in your hand, so I can see why you are less impressed by Gigapede. Gigapede does improve Phantasmagorian in plenty of cases though. And, as I pointed out, there are reasons to play Gigapede.

Baubles do add speed, I grant. They are slightly less consistent though, and they do open the deck even further to permission, particularly at your vulnerable stages of setting up in the early game. I ended up moving away from Baubles and going to Gigapede, but I can sympathize with the desire to add free draw to the deck.

Bauble isn't as good as Probe/SW (as you point out), and for those don't see why, the line of play looks something like this:

DDD -> if you flip 2 Dredgers (or can manage to get 2 in the GY), then definitely drop and pop Bauble.
DDD -> if you flip 1 Dredger, then you have consider the odds of chain dredging (Shell and Thug are weaker in this respect). If you drop'n'pop, but you don't flip another dredger on your draw step (or a Phantasmagorian), then you waste a draw step (or essentially, wasted your bauble as a form of acceleration).
DDD -> if you flip 0 Dredgers/Discard Outlets, you have to DDD again, and you can't drop Bauble (meaning, you wait another turn before you can drop it).

Having to wait until your next upkeep often sucks.

Some number of Baubles might be correct. I've not liked them in my testing though /shrug. I'll try again.

---------------

Contagion is obviously metagame dependent. I'm fully willing to part with it.

----------------

After reviewing your list, I see we have much larger disagreements. Both Nether Shadow and Phantasmagorian are auto-4-of's. Phantasmagorian is one of the best cards in the deck, even with Baubles. With or without baubles, I think Nether Shadow as a 4-of is a necessarily evil if you want to consistently DR as early as possible.



peace,
4eak

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 4eak

@ ajfirecracker

Multiple activations of Phantasmagorian without passing priority are excellent. They don't always empty your hand though, which can be a problem.

Hand Count - Activations - Remainder
8 - 2 - 2 (I'm sure most of the time Discard down is fine)
7 - 2 - 1
6 - 2 - 0
5 - 1 - 2
4 - 1 - 1
3 - 1 - 0
2 - 0 - 2
1 - 0 - 1

Obviously, you still get to pitch most of the cards in your hand, so I can see why you are less impressed by Gigapede. Gigapede does improve Phantasmagorian in plenty of cases though. And, as I pointed out, there are reasons to play Gigapede.

Baubles do add speed, I grant. They are slightly less consistent though, and they do open the deck even further to permission, particularly at your vulnerable stages of setting up in the early game. I ended up moving away from Baubles and going to Gigapede, but I can sympathize with the desire to add free draw to the deck.

Bauble isn't as good as Probe/SW (as you point out), and for those don't see why, the line of play looks something like this:

DDD -> if you flip 2 Dredgers (or can manage to get 2 in the GY), then definitely drop and pop Bauble.
DDD -> if you flip 1 Dredger, then you have consider the odds of chain dredging (Shell and Thug are weaker in this respect). If you drop'n'pop, but you don't flip another dredger on your draw step (or a Phantasmagorian), then you waste a draw step (or essentially, wasted your bauble as a form of acceleration).
DDD -> if you flip 0 Dredgers/Discard Outlets, you have to DDD again, and you can't drop Bauble (meaning, you wait another turn before you can drop it).

Having to wait until your next upkeep often sucks.

Some number of Baubles might be correct. I've not liked them in my testing though /shrug. I'll try again.

---------------

Contagion is obviously metagame dependent. I'm fully willing to part with it.

----------------

After reviewing your list, I see we have much larger disagreements. Both Nether Shadow and Phantasmagorian are auto-4-of's. Phantasmagorian is one of the best cards in the deck, even with Baubles. With or without baubles, I think Nether Shadow as a 4-of is a necessarily evil if you want to consistently DR as early as possible.



peace,
4eak

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You don't have to wait until your upkeep for Bauble, you have to wait until THE next upkeep, which may very well be your opponent's. This is mostly nice for pulling Narcomoeba out of your deck to block.

I've been advocating in favor of Phantasmagorian ever since Extended 2009 (i.e. Dark Depths season) as it was a nice boost to consistency and power in my dredge deck of that year. The thing is, as I tuned that list (easing my way into Legacy, as it were) for eternal play, I found that the Phantasmagorian were best cut from 4 to 3 and finally to 2. The reasons to run 2 in that deck and in my manaless build are the same: The first one you dredge into is completely awesome, and usually worth half a turn to a full turn. The second one you dredge into isn't awesome, but it is pretty good because you can loop the two together to discard for free at instant speed. The third is a Prowling Pangolin, as is the fourth. Obviously, if I could hit two at the very beginning of the game and then never hit more, I would happily do that.

I feel like my list doesn't even need the two Nether Shadow, it typically Dread Returns for the win on Turn 3 without bringing back the little squirt. I have two slots with basically nothing better, so I run him.

As to the auto 4-of nature of Phantastagorian, I think that when you start loading up on Nether Shadow, Bloodghast, and/or other low-power graveyard effects (I'd include Chancellor of the Forge here despite it working only from your hand), you basically have to run 6-7 Phantasmagorian to get the list to function smoothly (in large part due to Nether Shadow, but not just him). Of course, you can only run 4, so the deck feels pretty clunky when you take a while to find one, and once in a rare while you'll hit 3 or even all 4 quickly and feel awesome but be incredibly slow. Alternately, if you run 10 or so creatures like I do, and max out on things that dig through the deck, you find the creatures you actually care about (the two game-winning plays in the deck are pretty clearly Narcomoeba + Dread Return and Ichorid + Bridge from Below) and you really just don't need that many Phantastagorian. The correct number for a list that's otherwise similar to mine is almost certainly 2-3.

Edit: My 6-7 Phantasmagorian conclusion is definitely supported by the near-universal inclusion of Gigapede in the slower, more creature-focused manaless builds.

Edit 2: Regarding how close Phantasmagorian gets you to emptying your hand, keep in mind that you can always use him in your upkeep or after your upkeep, so in a single turn you have the option to discard at 2 different levels. Later in the game, you're almost always just fine with having some dredgers stuck in your hand (since this list is so dense on them), which means that he actually loses some of his value as the game goes on, despite being better able to functionally empty your hand (i.e. you only need one Phantasmagorian in your graveyard all game, most games).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ajfirecracker

@4eak, Contagion is a waste of space, the Baubles are worth running but certainly not as great as Street Wraith or Gitaxian Probe, and you really shouldn't need Gigapede, especially not solely as extra Phantasmagorian. You realize you can respond to Phantastagorian's discard ability with another instance of it, right? Alternately, you can discard a dredger with him, in response cycle Street Wraith, and discard that same dredger with that same Phantasmagorian.

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Wait, so I can discard Phantasmagorian on my end step and then activate his ability without passing priority multiple times to discard 6 of 7 cards in my hand?

Edit: Also, Nether Shadow isn't a game 1 card, it's a game 2&3 card because the density of threats is much more important post-board when facing hate then it is pre-board when you're free to goldfish i.e. MDing Nether Shadow is essentially pre-SBing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Wait, so I can discard Phantasmagorian on my end step and then activate his ability without passing priority multiple times to discard 6 of 7 cards in my hand?

Edit: Also, Nether Shadow isn't a game 1 card, it's a game 2&3 card because the density of threats is much more important post-board when facing hate then it is pre-board when you're free to goldfish i.e. MDing Nether Shadow is essentially pre-SBing.

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Yep, you basically get a free Stinkweed Imp dredge just for getting the first Phantasmagorian in your graveyard. With Street Wraith in hand, it's almost like getting two free dredges.

Nether Shadow isn't actually a threat, though. Nether Shadow + ample Cabal Therapy + multiple Bridge from Below is a serious threat, Narcomoeba can be a serious threat without conceding too much to hate, and Ichorid is an incredible threat so long as he has food, hate or no. By running the Baubles, I'm vastly increasing how often/quickly I hit Ichorid and Bridge from Below, which are the key threats when playing through hate. Nether Shadow, not so much. Even if your pre-boarding argument were very good (it's an ok analysis, although I think it's still wrong for the reasons I just gave), it wouldn't hold in situations where you don't want to pre-board the Nether Shadow, as he would be unlikely to make the sideboard in those cases.

Similarly, I think Rausch's biggest slop in deckbuilding was running the Gigapede in the sideboard. He said he usually just went -1 Phantasmagorian +1 Gigapede, which is clearly a change that makes almost no difference at all to the deck, and is almost certainly worse than just not making it at all. (As you can emulate Gigapede by discarding EOT, which you're planning on doing anyway, but you can't really emulate Phantasmagorian).

As to whether the deck should be fast or slow, I think fast is almost purely better. Counterbalance is probably the only card that stands a chance of making that not true (if it reveals a land to shut down Baubles), and no one is running it right now. Against hate, playing a faster deck means giving them fewer turns to find an out, and being able to more quickly end the game when they're failing to find one. Obviously this is balanced by having a higher threat density in cases where they do actually have hate, but the total time to win the game is almost certainly comparable, if not outright favoring the more draw-heavy deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ajfirecracker

Yep, you basically get a free Stinkweed Imp dredge just for getting the first Phantasmagorian in your graveyard. With Street Wraith in hand, it's almost like getting two free dredges.

Nether Shadow isn't actually a threat, though. Nether Shadow + ample Cabal Therapy + multiple Bridge from Below is a serious threat, Narcomoeba can be a serious threat without conceding too much to hate, and Ichorid is an incredible threat so long as he has food, hate or no. By running the Baubles, I'm vastly increasing how often/quickly I hit Ichorid and Bridge from Below, which are the key threats when playing through hate. Nether Shadow, not so much. Even if your pre-boarding argument were very good (it's an ok analysis, although I think it's still wrong for the reasons I just gave), it wouldn't hold in situations where you don't want to pre-board the Nether Shadow, as he would be unlikely to make the sideboard in those cases.

Similarly, I think Rausch's biggest slop in deckbuilding was running the Gigapede in the sideboard. He said he usually just went -1 Phantasmagorian +1 Gigapede, which is clearly a change that makes almost no difference at all to the deck, and is almost certainly worse than just not making it at all. (As you can emulate Gigapede by discarding EOT, which you're planning on doing anyway, but you can't really emulate Phantasmagorian).

As to whether the deck should be fast or slow, I think fast is almost purely better. Counterbalance is probably the only card that stands a chance of making that not true (if it reveals a land to shut down Baubles), and no one is running it right now. Against hate, playing a faster deck means giving them fewer turns to find an out, and being able to more quickly end the game when they're failing to find one. Obviously this is balanced by having a higher threat density in cases where they do actually have hate, but the total time to win the game is almost certainly comparable, if not outright favoring the more draw-heavy deck.

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Regarding Nether Shadow, it's a threat in the sense that it increases the number of recurrable creatures that enable your Dread Return thru' disruption, and it's also one of the only creatures in the deck that can block. You need to reach a critical mass of recurrable creatures thru' disruption post-board, and that's what Nether Shadow achieves.

I agree, game 1 being fast is better than being more consistent but post-board I think Nether Shadow, Gigapede and Chancellor of the Forge all give the deck more resiliency and less dependency on its starting hands. Maybe you start with the Baubles in the main deck and then SB them out for the "lesser" engine pieces?

Anyway, what do you guys think of the MD Dread Return target slots? I have a love/hate relationship with Chancellor of the Forge for being a worthwhile card in your starting 7 but he seems to be a worse Dread Return target than other options and he's only a good Dread Return target when you already have an overwhelming board position. I'm kind of leaning towards the old 2xSphinx of Lost Truths 2xFlame Kin Zealot package or just something like 4xIona, Shield of Emeria or 4xTerrastadon just to make game 1 Dread Return a lock and then board them out for something more functional in the face of disruption later.

Also, am I the only guy SBing in more Dredge 3 card to guarantee 2 Dredgers vs. hate?

Hi,
i haven't tested the manaless build yet. I just feel that being open to the 2 best things opponents can do in the first 2 turns isn't good:
1) Getting killed in the first two turns , can happen to every deck without counter
2) Lakey, Goblin isn't that much of an issue right now, but this can easily be a tough MU.

I feel that Baubles are better than Probes, becasue they can't be Misstepped.... which was the reason to play Manaless.

I really like your philosophy concerning the deck, ajfirecracker. Manaless Dredge should be a Dread Return deck instead of a Bridge from Below/Ichorid recursion grind-'em-out style deck, because it can do the former quite briskly without really sacrificing the latter at all. I haven't tested any of the Baubles over Chancellor of the Forge, but they do seem to be better in theory, considering they draw five-six cards in this deck, have synergy with Cabal Therapy, can be drawn into, and can replace the token CotF provides with a Narcomoeba, Nether Shadow, or Ichorid that gets dredged into.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau

I really like your philosophy concerning the deck, ajfirecracker. Manaless Dredge should be a Dread Return deck instead of a Bridge from Below/Ichorid recursion grind-'em-out style deck, because it can do the former quite briskly without really sacrificing the latter at all. I haven't tested any of the Baubles over Chancellor of the Forge, but they do seem to be better in theory, considering they draw five-six cards in this deck, have synergy with Cabal Therapy, can be drawn into, and can replace the token CotF provides with a Narcomoeba, Nether Shadow, or Ichorid that gets dredged into.

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Thanks!

I think the Baubles feel a lot less clunky than any other option, but they do slightly decrease the odds of having a Turn 2 win or a Cabal Therapy on Turn 2.

Yeah, Baubles are also more valuable than Gitaxian Probe in the sense they protect the deck from Relic of Progenitus, which is the worst of the SB cards we have to deal with. All I can say is thank god players are diversifying their SB hate cards, because Relic of Progenitus is probably worse than Leyline of the Void in that it's equivalently just as good when drawn and in addition to that an extremely powerful top deck.

Anyway, I had a pretty good showing with this list on Saturday.

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Gigapede
4 Golgar Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Chancellor of the Forge
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy

The nice thing is every card does something in your graveyard other than Gitaxian Probe, even a Shambling Shell feels like an Ancestral Recal every turn.

My response to the above post is in the Manaless thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 4eak

I'm still not completely convinced by the deck, but in many cases it is better than my usual LEDless, which has been fighting an uphill battle against a MM-infested metagame.

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I agree with this, and even though I think the uphill battle is quite beatable, I have to give you that manaless is better against MM the same much more than LEDless is better against opposing hatery.

Also, I like that the two decks will be properly discussed in different threads. The discussion gets too diverted when not, going into the "you should play this" direction too often , and I actually think LEDless should get the discussion to it's former thread as well.

Manaless seems to be the new kid on the block, but still i like Man'd better.

One card i'd like to include from Manaless is Street Wraith. On g2 and 3 if we fear Misstep we can go 2nd and dodge Relic like Manaless.
Wraith feeds Ichorid and we could dredge first round with it.

Somehow i seem to not use my dread returns and grind the games out with Zombies.
So perhaps -2 DR and -2 sth?

i also feel like street wrath would make a great adition to the deck.so i tested it out it only seems to be best in games 2/3. but i cant find room for them in the board lol all the staples just seem better. so anyways i have a tornament coming up on the 13 and offcourse i want to play dredge. it feels like somthings not right in my deck though
my list is......
4 troll
4 stinkweed
3 thug
1 darkblast
4 moeba
3 ichorid
4 putrid imp
3 tireless tribe
1 angel of dispair
2 dred return
4 breakthrough
4 carful study
4 bridge
4 theropy

4 city
4 gemstone
4 colisem
2 undiscoverd paradise
1 citadel
S.B.
4 firestom
4 chain of vapor
3 grudge
1 ichorid
1 D R
1 iona
1 elesh norn
iv nott been so happy with it lately,i feel like siding out bthrough is not the choice alot of times,i want to to take andvantedge of them not b slow.idk anymore it just feels like it needs a change,ya know.....lol. so im open to ideas.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gamer4life

i also feel like street wrath would make a great adition to the deck.so i tested it out it only seems to be best in games 2/3. but i cant find room for them in the board lol all the staples just seem better. so anyways i have a tornament coming up on the 13 and offcourse i want to play dredge. it feels like somthings not right in my deck though
my list is......
4 troll
4 stinkweed
3 thug
1 darkblast
4 moeba
3 ichorid
4 putrid imp
3 tireless tribe
1 angel of dispair
2 dred return
4 breakthrough
4 carful study
4 bridge
4 theropy

4 city
4 gemstone
4 colisem
2 undiscoverd paradise
1 citadel
S.B.
4 firestom
4 chain of vapor
3 grudge
1 ichorid
1 D R
1 iona
1 elesh norn
iv nott been so happy with it lately,i feel like siding out bthrough is not the choice alot of times,i want to to take andvantedge of them not b slow.idk anymore it just feels like it needs a change,ya know.....lol. so im open to ideas.

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Jesus, your writing is horrible.

I'd add a Terastodon/Woodfall Primus (leaning towards Primus, because he has an OMFG synergy with Cabal Therapy) somewhere in the 75. I really dislike not having any outs for random win stuff like Ensnaring Bridge and Moat.

The lack of knowledge of your meta makes me want to change your sideboard a little bit. I'd go for:

4 Ancient Grudge
4 Firestorm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Terastodon
1 Ichorid
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Dread Return

As for Street Wraith, I'm in love with it. But I play LED version, which don't really need Careful Study, so I replaced them with 3 Street Wraith and a 4th Thug.

I have leds and started out playing them. Then every thing changed mm hit and every body started to play control.

Perhaps i am playing this deck wrong... I seem to never (seldom) cast my dread returns.
Perhaps these 2 could be the first 2 Wraiths?

I have the feeling that DR is more often Winmore

Has anyone ever considered Sylvan Library, or has it already been tried and dismissed? I realize that blue is a stronger overall color for Careful Study and Breakthrough, but with the prevalence of Mental Misstep, and the option to run multi-color lands like City of Brass, Sylvan Library looks like it cxould be potent in here.

Here is the discussion from the Card Interactions and Rulings forum discussing Sylvan Library and Dredging: Sylvan Library and Life from the Loam interaction

So basically, Sylvan Library has the ability to give you 3 dredges a turn. That's like popping a Cephalid Coliseum every turn, minus the discard factor.

Am I totally off base here? I have only played Dredge a few times, and maybe Sylvan Library is too slow since the deck cannot take advantage of its effect until at least turn 3. Has this been discussed before?

It's common consenus that 2cc cards require too many lands in the deck and are too slow slow to resolve, otherwise we'd be playing with Zombie Infestation and Tolarian Winds.