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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
You are wrong.
Slap down a Mystic and you're all set? Are you kidding me? I've seen Goblin decks defeating Miracle Blade even with Batterskull on the table, post-Terminus. Is Batterskull powerful? Yes. Is SFM + Batterskull + Snapcaster Mage the universal solution in today's Meta? No. Top 8 a SCG:Open, or some 100+ participant Legacy tournament in Europe with Miracle-Blade, then we'll re-evaluate.
Just because typical Miracle deck would lose to all those "rampant/abundant" 12-post decks, that does Not mean SFM package is the solution. If you Really want to put your opponent on clock, you should run Geist, not SFM package.
Well, you are right, and wrong.
Yes, Miracleblade still dies to Goblins, even with Skull on board. Yes, Miracleblade did not finish any high-profile tournaments lately. Yes, Geist is the better clock.
BUT
The main purpose of Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull is not only for having a clock! It does provide a clock, that's right, but this is not the mainpoint. The very reason to have this package in the deck is having access to a Lifegain-machine, access to a clock, access to a gameplan if our primary plan does work and access to a stalling-machine. These points are what makes Miracleblade a valid choice for the Miracles archetype.
I am still testing which version of this deck is the strongest, I've invited alot of good german/austrian players to a talk. We could not come to a conclusion everyone would agree on. Same here on this thread, it's not like we could ever come to a point where like everyone would say "That's the best list."... I mean if there were valid statistics, like 50% of all Miracledudes played Blade, the other half RIP/Helm and over a peroid of so and so many weeks/months this side has more Top8s at the same tournaments or something like this there could be a winner. As this is not possible I think we have to stick to personal likings/thinkings and trustings.
Greetings
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
You are wrong.
...
Top 8 a SCG:Open, or some 100+ participants Legacy tournaments in Europe with Miracle-Blade, then we'll re-evaluate.
Something like winning the StarCityGames.com Legacy Open - Dallas?
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...4&iddeck=69564
How about these?
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/bus...ide=&strict=on
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
I said Today's Meta, not something from 2012. If you look at the only data you present on 2013, which is the one in Japan, that Miracle has not only SFM, it also has Punishing Fire combo. Now, how do we attribute his success solely to SFM, but not Punishing Fire? Please present Valid argument and data.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
I said Today's Meta, not something from 2012.
I figured you'd back track. Thank you for proving that you are narrow-minded. I won't waste any time trying to convince of something you don't want to be convinced of.
By the way: why choose when you can do both?
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...8&iddeck=72242
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Just wanted to point out that November 2012-today has seen exactly one expansion set released (Gatecrash), so I'd definitely look at anything late 2012 as "today's" meta. Not sure why you wouldn't.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arsenal
Just wanted to point out that November 2012-today has seen exactly one expansion set released (Gatecrash), so I'd definitely look at anything late 2012 as "today's" meta. Not sure why you wouldn't.
Because rather than admit fault, it's easier to just ignore data and continue with a mindset we like. Rather than dismissing ideas, lets discuss them and then after discussing them decide whether they are viable or not? And not before.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I wish they still wrote the metagame column on starcity as frequently as they did a year ago. It is easy, and dangerous, to place a lot of significance on small sample sizes. The RIP Miracle deck made top 8 in Denver. Obviously that is important. To get in, he beat me in a one game match that was pretty close, which makes the result a little less convincing in my mind.
However, looking at a whole string of tournaments makes a stronger case (against me).
I did a little research and (while this isn't shocking) it is interesting.
After RIP was printed and before Andrew beats me in the last round to make top 8 of Denver:
SCG Top 8's for counterbalance/miracles: 5
SCG Top 8's for RIP/Helm versions: 0
After Denver up until the present:
SCG Top 8's for counterbalance/miracles: 1 (me)
SCG Top 8's for RIP/Helm versions: 6
That is a pretty massive change. It is possible that the RIP version is better. It is also possible that I am the only person still playing without maindeck RIP, which doesn't tell us much other than that I am stubborn, but also explains the lack of results.
The RIP versions should be better against anything where RIP is relevant, and my version should be better against everything else. That may not be true, but it seems reasonable in theory. An important question is how much better is RIP versus something like RUG Delver? And how much of the metagame is RIP good against? I don't have an answer to those, but I believe that the difference is not enough to justify playing RIP main for myself.
But what is right for one person does not make it right for others. Plus I could be wrong.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
RiP/Helm could be better. Could also be flavor of the month syndrome (something new and cool, now everyone play the same deck list!!!111).
In metas that are heavy with decks that rely on their yards (Reanimator, Dredge, Jund, RUG Threshold, Esper Blade, etc), RiP/Helm is probably better. Otherwise, I'd go with Miracle Blade or some other variation in a meta with decks that don't need their yard that much or not at all (Goblins, Storm, Sneak Attack, 12-posts, etc). RiP is a pretty awful card if the other player is not using their graveyard.
If I had to go into a blind meta, I'd pick Miracle Blade over RiP/Helm.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oarsman
That is a pretty massive change. It is possible that the RIP version is better. It is also possible that I am the only person still playing without maindeck RIP, which doesn't tell us much other than that I am stubborn, but also explains the lack of results.
I'm usually slow as a snail to change decks and for a long time I was playing a list very similar to yours. I loved the play of the deck, but I was really unhappy with my Goblins and Jund MU so I decided to try Miracleblade (I say Jund, but I'm also including the various Deathrite value decks like BUG or RUGb cascade for example).
I played Miracleblade for a month or so and the deck is very powerful. Occasionally there were awkward circumstances where the SFM was trying to make my hand aggressive and Counterbalance/Terminus were trying to make me more defensive. The Goblins MU improved quite a bit, but it was still a battle unless I could protect an early Jitte. I decided to try RiP for three reasons:
1. My meta includes Dredge and Reanimator and I was tired of having to devote ~3-4 SB slots to GY hate. Usually I'm not too worried about Dredge and honestly g1 is still winnable if you have a FoW/Swords heavy hand, but being able to consistently steal g1 from Dredge (and to a lesser extent Reanimator) changes the MU completely.
2. I was still unhappy with my Goblins and Jund MUs. I was basically Miracles splashing SFM in order to beat these MUs and while good, SFM wasn't good enough. It doesn't guarantee a win against Goblins by any means. Between Bolt, PFire, Abrupt Decay, and Liliana, Jund has enough removal to make Batterskull glacially slow to come online. They have no good ways to remove it permanently, so Batterskull will eventually stick, but half the time it is too late and there's a solid chance it can't get around their 5/6 Goyf anyways (Land, Instant, Sorcery, Creature, Enchantment is ridiculously easy to hit against Jund).
Energy Field solves Goblins. Jund is still a difficult MU, but I no longer have to worry as much about Goyf/Deathrite/PFire. My defensive game is better against them because now they must divide their Decays between RiP and Counterbalance and my offensive game is improved because I have an additional way to one-shot them where before I was almost all in on Entreat.
3. I'd been mising Enlightened Tutor for a while as a 5th Top and additional way to set up my Counterbalance with awkward cmcs like 3. The next best thing to t1 Top is pass, EoT Tutor, untap, play land, play Top. The fact that Enlightened Tutor is at its best in the RiP builds finally sold me. I wanted to be playing more virtual Tops and in addition to the other uses I'd had, Tutor was now also a wincon.
RiP isn't the end all and maybe there will come a time when I can switch back to the pure version, but for the current meta it is definitely solid. It is good so many places and when it isn't good in itself there's a solid chance that Energy Field is. G1 against Show and Tell has a whole new angle to it also.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Some great points being made here. I'm coming from more of a ThopterBalance background, and I definitely agree with Dzra that the enlightened tutor functioning as virtual copies of cards is somewhere I want to be, and RIP is the most powerful version of that.
At least locally for me, RIP is dead maybe 1 match in 6 or 7, so there's no justification for not having it. Energy Field locks out a lot of the matches where RIP itself doesn't seal the deal. The only times I'm not happy to draw RIP are against the mirror and show and tell. If RIP is the 'flavor of the month', it tastes pretty good in Atlanta. :)
In terms of how much it changes the Thresh (RUG Delver) matchup - night and day. Before we were a slight underdog, now we are favored. I have not lost to Thresh with a RIP list (at least 5 matches).
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
If I had to go into a blind meta, I'd pick Miracle Blade over RiP/Helm.
I totally back that statement.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
RiP/Helm could be better.
If I had to go into a blind meta, I'd pick Miracle Blade over RiP/Helm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
RiP isn't the end all and maybe there will come a time when I can switch back to the pure version, but for the current meta it is definitely solid. It is good so many places and when it isn't good in itself there's a solid chance that Energy Field is. G1 against Show and Tell has a whole new angle to it also.
There are more evidences from SCG Kansas City, Punishing Fire combo is now being used in Nick-Fit and Lands.
DragoFireheart's stuck at 2012, when most people has moved onto 2013. Unless you have the credential to justify like Joe or that Japanese guy, you have no case.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Unless you have the credential to justify like Joe or that Japanese guy, you have no case.
I don't need to have any credentials to show that MiracleBlade has put up numbers and recently enough that it's a viable strategy. Just because you choose to cherry pick data does not make your opinion valid. If anything, refusing to acknowledge valid and relevant data makes your opinion less valid. It's not like Gatecrash introduced a specific card that suddenly made MiracleBlade horrible.
Oh, and good job on ignoring my previous post where I actually posted about the event where Miracles used Punishing Fire.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
The list from KC is mine. The Tarns should be more Deltas, I don't know why I had those, but it never came up as a problem. The list was sweet, but I wasn't disappointed in my play in several of my matches, check out g3 of the camera feature match for examples. I definitely need to test more against Jund, as I don't like the boarding plan I used on my win-and-in r7 which I lost. My matches were as follows:
Rector Show and Tell 2-1
Ug Enchantress 2-1
Rock 2-1
Jund Nic Fit 1-2
Wgb Nic Fit 2-0
Fish 2-1
Jund 1-2
Ant 2-1
Sorry for the short post, I am on my phone.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Why did you choose to run Punishing Fire over SFM/BS or RiP/Helm?
Why do you have Gesit of Saint Traft in the board?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I ran Fires since I wanted something which shored up both the aggro and the control matchups, particularly Esper, that wasn't vulneable to removal such as Abrupt Decay, STP, and the like.
The Geists come in against combo, Esper/the mirror, and decks that run relatively low amounts of creatures like Tim Wilson's Nic Fit or burn.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shawn
The list from KC is mine. The Tarns should be more Deltas, I don't know why I had those, but it never came up as a problem. The list was sweet, but I wasn't disappointed in my play in several of my matches, check out g3 of the camera feature match for examples. I definitely need to test more against Jund, as I don't like the boarding plan I used on my win-and-in r7 which I lost. My matches were as follows:
Rector Show and Tell 2-1
Ug Enchantress 2-1
Rock 2-1
Jund Nic Fit 1-2
Wgb Nic Fit 2-0
Fish 2-1
Jund 1-2
Ant 2-1
Sorry for the short post, I am on my phone.
How did the manabase treat you? Seems a little hard to consistently get UU, but it's definitely a cool build!
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I myself have been thinking of putting punishing fire into a uw counterbalance shell. The R.I.P. version of the deck is pretty much the best deck to beat the unfair decks while the PF builds add a late game engine to help out against midrange/rock like matchups while also adding value points in control mirrors. It is choice in my opinion but honestly I think the meta is better suited for R.I.P. with all the grislebrand, and thresh decks floating around.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I don't think Punishing Fire is bad in here. I'm sure it'd be nice in certain MUs. I just don't think that it is at its best here, just like Stoneforge is good but only really at its best in Stoneblade. Something like Jund is a really good place for Punishing Fire. Despite Jund and us both being "slower" decks in the format, Jund is much more attrition based than us.
Because Jund is constantly 2-for-1ing and pecking at their opponents' life total, they can actually put the 1 damage per turn to use rather than just having more spot removal. We are durdling, durdling, durdling, kill you out of nowhere. Punishing Fire and Stoneforge are both really powerful cards, but from a theoretical standpoint those cards are much better in their respective decks.
What was the problem that you had with the Jund Nic Fit deck (was it one that top 16'd or another list)? I think the Nic Fit version that uses Scapeshift/Valakut could be problematic, but the others don't strike me as awful.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
lord: The mana has been fine so far. I play 18 u sources, which is comparable to most lists. Sure, there might be times where fewer basics hurts, but you gain a lot of power by adding Groves which has to be considered. Also, I play a land more than mosts lists and often board into 25 against decks with mana-disruption.
I should have clarified my problems I've been having with Jund, it's the traditional BBE version. I feel the Nic Fit version is a fine matchup. I played against Tim who made t8.Game one I mulled to five and game three I played poorly: I pitched a Brainstorm to Force when I should have flipped Top to pitch CB, I should have fatesealed with Jace, and I may have gotten greedy on a Brainstorm and shuffled a Terminus away-I have to watch that part again to see if that was right.My Thoughtseize on Deed instead of Pulse is also debatable. If I Seize the Pulse he can't deal with Jace and it's harder for him to deal with Baneslayer, but taking the Deed allows me to randomly win with ETA as I had Top and Pulse can't nab Geist.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
There are more evidences from SCG Kansas City, Punishing Fire combo is now being used in Nick-Fit and Lands.
DragoFireheart's stuck at 2012, when most people has moved onto 2013. Unless you have the credential to justify like Joe or that Japanese guy, you have no case.
It is not only this post - can you think twice before you post something and sound less condescending? Thanks
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Just wanted to update you guys, Celestial Purge has been great at helping out the Jund matchup, as it kills every permanent they play except Tarmogoyf and Sylvan Library.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
And it's untouched by REB/Pyroblast, which is a very common card that Jund players will board in and feel "safe" with when they run out their bomb threat.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oarsman
I wish they still wrote the metagame column on starcity as frequently as they did a year ago. It is easy, and dangerous, to place a lot of significance on small sample sizes. The RIP Miracle deck made top 8 in Denver. Obviously that is important. To get in, he beat me in a one game match that was pretty close, which makes the result a little less convincing in my mind.
However, looking at a whole string of tournaments makes a stronger case (against me).
I did a little research and (while this isn't shocking) it is interesting.
After RIP was printed and before Andrew beats me in the last round to make top 8 of Denver:
SCG Top 8's for counterbalance/miracles: 5
SCG Top 8's for RIP/Helm versions: 0
After Denver up until the present:
SCG Top 8's for counterbalance/miracles: 1 (me)
SCG Top 8's for RIP/Helm versions: 6
That is a pretty massive change. It is possible that the RIP version is better. It is also possible that I am the only person still playing without maindeck RIP, which doesn't tell us much other than that I am stubborn, but also explains the lack of results.
The RIP versions should be better against anything where RIP is relevant, and my version should be better against everything else. That may not be true, but it seems reasonable in theory. An important question is how much better is RIP versus something like RUG Delver? And how much of the metagame is RIP good against? I don't have an answer to those, but I believe that the difference is not enough to justify playing RIP main for myself.
But what is right for one person does not make it right for others. Plus I could be wrong.
That's hilarious and extremely telling. I never know whether to get disappointed or happy when I realize how "unsolved" this game is after 20 years.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Why try to figure out what build is the best when you can have a hybrid of : Thopter, Stoneblade, Miracle and RIP in the sideboard ?
Only 1 card does not have synergy when transforming from Thopter to RIP it's Academy Ruins ( witch is not a big deal )
I did some testing with this build VS EsperBlade, Reanimator, ANT, the mirror( normal miracle control ) and Burn
and I came to the conclusion that I'm a bit weaker to combo game one without counterspell and spell pierce main deck, but I have a better match up Vs the rest of the field.
This deck is a lot more proactive then the other control deck, it has more '' must answer threats '' and play much more aggressively. In the control mirror this deck can play through the opposing counters because it has so many game ending plays.
Creatures [2]
2 Stoneforge Mystic
Instants [14]
3 Enlightened Tutor ( MVP of the deck )
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares
Sorceries [4]
1 personal tutor ( I hate starting a game with a miracle in my hand, this tutor acts as my 2ed Entreat and my 3ed Terminus )
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Terminus
Enchantments[5]
4 Counterbalance
1 Detention Sphere
Planeswalkers [3]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Artifacts [9]
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Lands [23]
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Seat of the Synod
2 Plains
4 Island
1 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
I side board is fare from being optimal. I could use some help fixing it.
Sideboard
1 Helm of Obedience ( bring the combo kill in when RIP is needed )
3 Rest in Peace ( good against graveyard based decks, snap, goyf,...)
2 Vendilion Clique ( good against control and combo )
1 Swords to Plowshares ( good against agrro )
1 Humility ( aggro and show and tell )
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge ( aggro and show and tell )
1 Ethersworn Canonist ( combo )
2 Spell Pierce ( good against control, combo and can replace force of will when I don't need to 2 for 1 my self )
1 Blood Moon ( good against gready mana bases, lands, 12 post and loam decks in general )
1 Terminus ( good against aggro )
Any helpful feedback would be appreciated :smile:
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
3 Enlightened tutors + 1 Personal tutor= too much card disadvantage don't you think?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cschacal
3 Enlightened tutors + 1 Personal tutor= too much card disadvantage don't you think?
Card disadvantage is not a bad thing when you tutor for :
-a combo peace that will let you grind (Thopter) or win the game on the spot (RIP-Helm)
-a kill condition like Entreat
-a board wipe what's going to be a 2 for 2 at worst and will make the game progress in to the mid game ( you are better suited to win the mid game then other decks )
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kaslan
Card disadvantage is not a bad thing when you tutor for :
-a combo peace that will let you grind (Thopter) or win the game on the spot (RIP-Helm)
-a kill condition like Entreat
-a board wipe what's going to be a 2 for 2 at worst and will make the game progress in to the mid game ( you are better suited to win the mid game then other decks )
When you make a post, and actually point out that plow and terminus is good against aggro (and all the other obvious stuff in the SB) it tells something about your skill level. You ask for feedback, but when you get it, you refute it? I don't get it.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stavanger
When you make a post, and actually point out that plow and terminus is good against aggro (and all the other obvious stuff in the SB) it tells something about your skill level. You ask for feedback, but when you get it, you refute it? I don't get it.
Great first post on The Source, you're making an amazing first impression. Any other feedback I could get from you other then my obvious skill level?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kaslan
Great first post on The Source, you're making an amazing first impression. Any other feedback I could get from you other then my obvious skill level?
Just seems like you are more interested in confirmation of your version rather than constructive critisism, being ignorant when people give you feedback and argument against instead of learning will get you nowhere, and people will stop using their time trying to help you with your build. Stating the obvious is not necessary, people finishing t8 in SCG and GP know what STP and Terminus is good against. Sorry for my bad english, as my nick tells, english is not my first language.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stavanger
Just seems like you are more interested in confirmation of your version rather than constructive critisism, being ignorant when people give you feedback and argument against instead of learning will get you nowhere, and people will stop using their time trying to help you with your build. Stating the obvious is not necessary, people finishing t8 in SCG and GP know what STP and Terminus is good against. Sorry for my bad english, as my nick tells, english is not my first language.
Anything else you would like to add ?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Looking at the list, my comment relates to the doubling up of kill conditions. I know that your goal was to create a hybrid. Still, the 75 cards has space devoted to both RIP/Helm and Thopter/Sword. I would ask myself two questions.
Do I ever board in RIP/Helm and leave in Thopter/Sword?
If not, are there matchups where one is so much better than the other that I can justify using the sideboard space for the second set?
If the answer to either one is yes, then fine. But put some thought into it.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I think my list is nearly complete. I might add R for Blood Moon + Pyroblast, + Engineered Explosives, but I'm not quite ready yet unless someone can convince me to drop almost $200 USD for the upgrades.
Here's what I have so far for a pure U/W list. Let me know how you feel about this guys.
Main Deck:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Back to Basics
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
1 Detention Sphere
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Rest in Peace
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Plains
4 Tundra
Sideboard:
1 Aura of Silence
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Flusterstorm
1 Humility
1 Pithing Needle
1 Powder Keg
1 Sphere of Law
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Surgical Extraction
Again, adding Red would mean dropping Back to Basics for Blood Moon and switching Powder Keg for Engineered Explosives. Let me know how you guys feel about this.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Heya Tamales,
Your list looks like a lot of fun, but there are a few things I'd change:
Powder Keg is very slow, I think I'd run with Engineered Explosives even if you don't splash a 3rd color. Lets compare how they each act.
Destroying 0 CMC: Powder Keg costs 2 to cast, and you tap it to sack it. EE costs 0, you then pay 2 to sac it. So they do the same thing here.
Destroying 1 CMC: Powder Keg costs 2 to cast, you wait a turn, then use it. EE costs 1 to use, and you can immediatly pay 2 to sac it. Here EE is faster, but Keg costs less.
The pattern continues with EE increasing in mana cost, and Keg increasing in turns. With the amount of mana we run (around 23 ususally) we will have plenty of land drops to always make EE a better option. Also - Keg can't kill enchantments, and I do love dropping an EE for WWU and watching the opposing Counterballance player get all confused.
Next up, are you playing Aura of Silence as a Disenchant, or are you afraid of MUD and Affinity? If it's the latter, then you need a better card: Energy Flux or Kataki, War's Wage for affinity, and counter magic for MUD. I'd suggest swapping it for a straight up Disenchant.
And last, Sphere of Law in you board makes me wonder why you're not running Energy Field in the main deck. It's one of the reasons that RIP is so good, Helm being the second one. I'd suggest finding room in the main for two fields, and see how that effects your burn match-up.
Cheers,
Frank
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Any lists that run 4 Counterbalances are clear indicators of little or no understanding of how Miracle control works. Simply google Miracle control, out of all the top 8 Miracle control deck lists, how many of them are running 4 CB?
To make the list more futile, adding Stoneblade package is just not the direction. We had this debate before, just look for reasoning in previous couple pages.
Seriously, again, just google Miracle control, out of all the top 8, which one runs Powder Keg? Look, budget is not an excuse, unless you post your list in casual section. Most tournament/competitive Legacy Miracle control decks run 3 colors. This is not even related to card choices, this is just your affordability.
No, Energy Field is clunky. It's a magnet for REB/Pyroblast. Just look at SCG Legacy Open's lists where Miracle Helms won 1st place, none of them MD Energy Field, maybe not even SB.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Any lists that run 4 Counterbalances are clear indicators of little or no understanding of how Miracle control works.
Dang, just when I thought I was starting to get the hang of this, I find out that I have no idea what I am doing.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Any lists that run 4 Counterbalances are clear indicators of little or no understanding of how Miracle control works. Simply google Miracle control, out of all the top 8 Miracle control deck lists, how many of them are running 4 CB?
To make the list more futile, adding Stoneblade package is just not the direction. We had this debate before, just look for reasoning in previous couple pages.
Seriously, again, just google Miracle control, out of all the top 8, which one runs Powder Keg? Look, budget is not an excuse, unless you post your list in casual section. Most tournament/competitive Legacy Miracle control decks run 3 colors. This is not even related to card choices, this is just your affordability.
No, Energy Field is clunky. It's a magnet for REB/Pyroblast. Just look at SCG Legacy Open's lists where Miracle Helms won 1st place, none of them MD Energy Field, maybe not even SB.
if we have so little understanding of how miracle control works then maybe you could enlighten us a little bit. why exactly is it wrong to play 4 counterbalence in the deck.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I have been trying some whacky stuff that I will not share here right now but I do have a list I would like you guys to critique.
2. Snapecaster Mage
3. Vendilion Clique
1. Venser, Shaper Savant
4. Brainstorm
4. Force of Will
3. Counterbalance
4. Sensei's Diving Top
3. Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3. Terminus
3. Swords to Plowshares
3. Spell Pierce
3. Disrupt
1. Counterspell
2. Entreat the Angels
3. Tundra
4. Flooded Strand
3. Scalding Tarn
2. Arid Mesa
2. Plains
1. Karakas
4. Island
2. Volcanic Island
Sideboard:
3. Red Elemental Nlast
1. Blood Moon
2. Enlightened Tutor
3. Rest in Peace
1. Energy Field
1. Helm of Obedience
1. Ethersworn Cannonidt
2. Elspeth, Knight Errent
1. Supreme Cerdict
It is pretty much a draw go version of Miracles with the only 3 cards that cannot be played during your opponents turn being Jace, counterbalance, and Top. I chose a classic flash creature based version to better deal with walkers and to pressure combo decks. I am using Distupt as tech and it has been surprisingly good even when played around. The discards decks have to wreck your hand early and often and they usually tap out to play their discard spells why not timewalk them and draw a card.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Any lists that run 4 Counterbalances are clear indicators of little or no understanding of how Miracle control works. Simply google Miracle control, out of all the top 8 Miracle control deck lists, how many of them are running 4 CB?
To make the list more futile, adding Stoneblade package is just not the direction. We had this debate before, just look for reasoning in previous couple pages.
Seriously, again, just google Miracle control, out of all the top 8, which one runs Powder Keg? Look, budget is not an excuse, unless you post your list in casual section. Most tournament/competitive Legacy Miracle control decks run 3 colors. This is not even related to card choices, this is just your affordability.
No, Energy Field is clunky. It's a magnet for REB/Pyroblast. Just look at SCG Legacy Open's lists where Miracle Helms won 1st place, none of them MD Energy Field, maybe not even SB.
You are right on the fact that most miracle lists play only 3 counter balance main deck and it may just be the correct number to play. If I wanted to google '' miracle control '' and just copy a list that top 8ed an event, I would not post my ideas and try for get feedback from players on .
As for your comment on stoneblade ( kill condition, stabilization tool vs aggro and tutor for a piece of my kill condition ) and the '' reasoning '' that you had in the previous pages ... well let's just say your arguments did not convince me.
Honestly, you have some good points but unfortunately you don't convey them very well. Be less aggressive and try to be less of a D bad when you comment on someone else's post.
