[Deck] Dredge

In addition to NecroYawgmoth, Griselbrand being a 7/7 Flyer, Lifelink is also important because he can disregards his ability and just put the game out of reach vs Burn and its variants on fast-aggro.

You'll just get into situations where recurring FKZ wont immediately kill your opponent, and in those situations anything is better than FKZ.

Altho' honestly if you want to play with 2 Dread Return, 1 Griselbrand and 1 FKZ just do it game 1 and SB it out game 2, as long as you have the SB space to converge into your post-board plan then what you choose to play for game 1 isn't a big deal, altho' I'd never play FKZ game 2 vs hate for certain.


The reason that Griselbrand is hands down the best DR target is because he's a stand alone threat at 7/7 Flying, Lifelink and he draws/dredges the deck out into a position where you're opponent is Mind Twisted and can only top deck Swords to Plowshares Griselbrand and die to Zombie Tokens and Ichorids, Terminus and get attacked by Ichorids who leave behind a board full of Zombies or Tormod's Crypt and die anyway to Griselbrand and Zombie Tokens. Griselbrand ensures your opponent is facing "power overwhelming," because there's just no way to McGiver your way out of that ass beating.

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Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth

The thing is: When you have a Zombie Horde on Turn 2, you usually had hit the opponent with 1-2 Ichorid beats, and you Mind Twisted their hand with Cabal Therapy.

Now imagine your opponent. He has zero relevant handcards, ~10-15 life, and is facing 6+ Zombie Tokens. What should he do?

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Counter heavy decks will still have relevant cards and can miracle Terminus or sneak in Griselbrand to search for Emrakul. There are games where swinging one turn earlier is necessary.
But I agree that the odds of being overcame in this situation is too low for justify running FKZ. The same isn't true for the non LED versions. That Sun Titan plus FKZ old tactic states a really strong board position when rushed. Sometimes we have three creatures but find only one bridge. What do you usually do? Wait one more turn? (not a rhetorical question, I'm trying to learn about this)

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Originally Posted by Calado

Counter heavy decks will still have relevant cards and can miracle Terminus or sneak in Griselbrand to search for Emrakul. There are games where swinging one turn earlier is necessary.
But I agree that the odds of being overcame in this situation is too low for justify running FKZ. The same isn't true for the non LED versions. That Sun Titan plus FKZ old tactic states a really strong board position when rushed. Sometimes we have three creatures but find only one bridge. What do you usually do? Wait one more turn? (not a rhetorical question, I'm trying to learn about this)

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There's no reason LED can afford not to play with Dread Returns and LEDless can't afford not to play with Dread Returns and Dread Return targets, the only difference between the two decks is that LED has a faster fundamental turn than LEDless does, what happens after they both reach that fundamental turn is the exact same thing.

The problem with Dread Return or Dread Return into FKZ is that if you're over commiting to either your board position instead of your grave position, you have a Golgari Grave Troll and more Zombie Tokens on the board instead of an Ichorid in your graveyard to hedge against Terminus, or you have to be able to win immediately in order to justify recurring FKZ. If all FKZ does is prevent the opponent from top decking Terminus, Iona, Shield of Emeria does the same thing by naming White and is a 7/7 Flyer for the times you can't win immediately for FKZ. Likewise Griselbrand lets you either dredge your deck into your graveyard, where you have more than enough Ichorids and Bridges to come back regardless of a Terminus or he lets you draw 7 cards wheren you now have a board position, a graveyard position and a new hand. If you know a way for a control deck to win thru' that then you are a god, because it's not mortally possible.

That's why I'm not a fan of either the singleton Dread Return in decks or Flame Kin Zealot, if Flame Kin Zealot doesn't win immediately it's worthless, while Griselbrand or Iona, Shield of Emeria don't have to have to the exact board position in order to be worthwhile.

Edit: Also FKZ is worthless vs. Mogg Fanatic, check the DTB ...

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

That's why I'm not a fan of either the singleton Dread Return in decks

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Technically, 5 sacrifice outlets makes it more easily attainable than 4, just saying...

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Originally Posted by Gui

Technically, 5 sacrifice outlets makes it more easily attainable than 4, just saying...

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Yeah, I know what you mean, but that doesn't necessarily encourage the use of Dread Returns in place of an Ichorid over Darkblast in place of a Golgari Thug for the extra Narcomoeba killer. I don't think the singleton Dread Return is necessarily bad, I just don't like cutting the 4th Ichorid for it unless I have some other extenuating circumstances in mind like diversifying vs Surgical Extraction or saving SB space.

IDK, Dread Returns is growing on me right now because every deck pretty much seems to be playing Surgical Extraction over Tormod's Crypt, and even the decks playing Tormod's Crypt like Goblins or Affinity can't really win the match with it. Also nobody seems to be playing more than 4 SB cards for Dredge or other graveyard decks, I've never seen anybody play 3 Surgical Extraction, 3 Tormod's Crypt in their SBs IRL for example and I'm not convinced you can reliably beat Dredge as RUG with only 4 Surgical Extractions, U/w with 4 Snapcaster Mages may be another matter tho'.

My meta has a lot of graveyard hate for what ever reason. I have a couple RUG players that board 3 or 4 Surgical Extraction & 2 or 3 Tormod's Crypt, then a couple guys running Snapcaster Mage siding 4 Surgical Extraction (which is like running 8 ), top all that off with the other decks running Leyline of the Void. It gets pretty crazy if you wanna play a graveyard based deck around here. :frown:

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Originally Posted by TerribleTim68

My meta has a lot of graveyard hate for what ever reason. I have a couple RUG players that board 3 or 4 Surgical Extraction & 2 or 3 Tormod's Crypt, then a couple guys running Snapcaster Mage siding 4 Surgical Extraction (which is like running 8 ), top all that off with the other decks running Leyline of the Void. It gets pretty crazy if you wanna play a graveyard based deck around here. :frown:

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I feel your pain, I have to deal with U/w with 4 Surgical Extractions and Snapcaster Mages and Goblins, Affinity and Elves with Leyline of the Void and RUG with a mix of graveyard hate at my local meta as well, my best suggestion is to just play 7 answers to Leyline of the Void in your SB and diversify your Dredgers and kill conditions as much as possible. I think you can still compete as long as you don't run into Reanimator with Surgical Extraction, which feels like having your balls hammered to the wall.

Rofl I can attest to that. For whatever reason my Reanimator opponent must have been really worried about the mirror that day because in our match he ended up siding in Surgical extractions as well as Fearie Macabres to fuck me.

Yeah, I forgot to mention the Maverick and Zoo decks that MB at least 2 Scavenging Ooze and then SB 1 to 2 more. :frown:

Well thats different. Its to be expected from those decks.

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Originally Posted by TerribleTim68

Yeah, I forgot to mention the Maverick and Zoo decks that MB at least 2 Scavenging Ooze and then SB 1 to 2 more. :frown:

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Be thankful for the Maverick match up, if all they're playing is a set of Scavenging Ooze and that Graveyard sweeping land for Knight of the Reliquary they can't win the match up because Lion's Eye Diamond out races them. If they play Faerie Macabre, then you've got problems.

SB Firestorms and laugh off the match up IMO.

Yesterday I beat Burn in two games, Esper Stoneblade in two games, and lost to RUG in three. I had high hopes after he scooped Game 1 on Turn 0 to Gemstone, LED, LED, Breakthrough, Troll, Troll, PImp, after I called Gemstone, LED, Breakthough, Troll, Troll, Therapy, Bridge during shuffling. Game 2 we both mulled to six and Extracting my Trolls stalled me out. Game 3 we both mulled to five and I had to keep land, land, Thug, Stinkweed, Stinkweed. I didn't draw any more lands and he Extracted Ichorid and Thug as my only dredger in the yard while the trigger was putting Narcomoeba back. It was a pretty messed up game of Magic. I'm feeling pretty good about Quadlaser, though I might want to sneak in one more land.

JBulko explains his Dredge list here.

I'm curious where he's going to finish. 2-1 after round 3 afaik.

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Originally Posted by Izor

JBulko explains his Dredge list here.

I'm curious where he's going to finish. 2-1 after round 3 afaik.

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Hopefully he doesn't top eight or else we might get flooded with a bunch of posts like this:

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Originally Posted by JBulko

Suck it suckers!!!!
My dredge deck is the best ever!!!!!!!!!

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9 Dredgers not counting Darkblast and Salvage... Oo

Seriously, stop hating Jason already. I know his style of writing and maybe even his cardchoices anger some people but you guys really exaggerate. It's almost like you are jealous... I don't know what the deal is with all this hate...

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

Seriously, stop hating Jason already. I know his style of writing and maybe even his cardchoices anger some people but you guys really exaggerate. It's almost like you are jealous... I don't know what the deal is with all this hate...

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I don't hate him. I also don't hate someone else in this forum / thread. But c'mon Hokus, you have to agree that you shouldn't ever play Dredge with only 9 real Dredgers... :rolleyes:

I think Bulko finished 5-3, so no tops this time. Not a terrible result either.

Thanks for the faux quote Mauer... :really:

Had a rough couple of matches. Including the Burn kid who had to read all my cards, The eventual T4 Omni-show player(svien), though it was closer than I expected it to be, and a 3rd loss to Metalworker, who had chalice for one in both games he played first. I guess that's the kind of stuff you run into in the X-2 bracket. Shrug.
Here's the round-by-round:
R1- Beat delver in 3
R2- lose to the burn kid in 3
R3- 2-0 Maverick, wining G2 with the Sb plan
R4- Lose in 3 to eventual T4 Omni-show(Jap version)
R5- 2-0 Esper blade, Win G2 with board plan
R6- Lose in 3 to Metalworker
R7- beat Esper blade in 3
R8- Beat U/w control(not miracles) in 3
End up 5-3, in 35 place, well inside the money.

I'm a little disappointed, but I can't be too upset finishing 4th in the standard, and with Joe WINING the event!!!

I'm still happy with the deck, and with the board.

I know we all have strong opinions about card choices etc., and my language isn't exactly friendly, but I actually agree with Hokus on this one, some of you guys just take it too personally.

Took the following to 9th on breakers at a 55-man tournament today.

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
2 Careful Study
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
1 Sun Titan
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

SB

1 Ichorid
2 Memory's Journey
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm

R1 Dredge 0-2
R2 Esper Stoneblade 2-0
R3 UB Delver homebrew 2-0
R4 Merfolk 2-1
R5 Esper Stoneblade 2-0
R6 ID Maverick, miss top 8 by .9% on breakers. If I were going to play the tourney again I might move the combo DR targets to the side for Ichorid and something and turn the Norn into a Firestorm. Memory's journey was great versus stoneblade.

How is Sun Titan ever better than Griselbrand?

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

How is Sun Titan ever better than Griselbrand?

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Sun Titan doesn't necessitate having to pay seven life for its triggered ability, and for all intents and purposes (virtually) wins you the game on the spot - much like Griselbrand would.

However, Griselbrand buries Sun Titan as far as utility in Dredge goes. Drawing cards or flipping your deck at the cost of seven life is ludicrously good.

Sun Titan can bring back Bloodghasts by putting a land into play. And as they win the game the same, Sun Titan is strictly better than Griselbrand in Bloodghasts lists.

Still, with Ichorids I'd definetely go for Griselbrand, if I was running Dread Return at all.

A dredge deck did top 16 the recent Open
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=48942
I am curious on why he chose to play Sphinx Of Lost Truths, while it is good I think the slot could have been another Careful Study or Griselbrand

As for Bloodghasts Vs Ichorid, I personally prefer Ichorid as it sacs itself (then again I play a very close to Quadlazer list) and beats a bit harder. The advantage to Bloodghast being easier to recur than Ichorid as you don't have to feed 4 of them just one, but they don't remove themselves for Bridges so you have to get a Sac outlet to remove them

EDIT: Izzet Charm, this card does 3 things at instant speed one of which loots, it may be UR to cast, but I think it warrants some testing, the instant Loot ability + Countermagic on a card seems insane as this will give the deck more resiliency to Graveyard Hate

Hi, I'm new here, and also new playing Dredge; I'm still learning how to play the deck, but I read all the Thread and found it really useful.

I started playing Dredge about 3 months ago, during that time I converted to Anusien's simil-quadlaser LEDless list.

What I would like to ask is mainly about sideboarding. I really liked the idea of Griselbrand in the board, and understood its use reading at page 65, but I can't imagine what are its match-ups. When do you usually board it? Against what?

Another question: one of the first things I learned, reading here, is that we usually have to board out breakthrough G2. Is replacing it every time with 4 Nature's Claim a good choice? Or are there better choices?

Talking about MD, do you think that 16 lands in a LEDless list could be fine? Or should I go down to 14?

Thanks a lot!

P.S. I'm Italian, so sorry for my English!

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Originally Posted by Ghiwo

...P.S. I'm Italian, so sorry for my English!

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Oddly, your english seems better than a lot of Americans. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Ghiwo

Hi, I'm new here, and also new playing Dredge; I'm still learning how to play the deck, but I read all the Thread and found it really useful.

I started playing Dredge about 3 months ago, during that time I converted to Anusien's simil-quadlaser LEDless list.

What I would like to ask is mainly about sideboarding. I really liked the idea of Griselbrand in the board, and understood its use reading at page 65, but I can't imagine what are its match-ups. When do you usually board it? Against what?

Another question: one of the first things I learned, reading here, is that we usually have to board out breakthrough G2. Is replacing it every time with 4 Nature's Claim a good choice? Or are there better choices?

Talking about MD, do you think that 16 lands in a LEDless list could be fine? Or should I go down to 14?

Thanks a lot!

P.S. I'm Italian, so sorry for my English!

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SBing in 2xDread Return and 1xGriselbrand is for the Surgical Extraction/Snapcaster decks, where you're diversifying your kill conditions to prevent a double Surgical Extraction from completely blowing you out of the game.

You do not have to board out Breakthrough game 2, and in fact I believe boarding out Breakthrough game 2 is an obvious mistake unless you can put your opponent on Tormod's Crypt post-board, i.e. Affinity, Trinket Mage.dec etc. and even then you want to SB out Lion's Eye Diamond before you SB out Breakthrough.

As far as LEDless Dredge is concerned, I use Anusien's list -1 Tarnished Citadel, -1 Golgari Thug and -1 Ichorid for +3 Tireless Tribe, and I think 11 Golden Lands, 11 Dredgers and 7 discard creatures is where the deck wants to be.

So I have been tinkering with Izzet Charm a bit and came to this list:

4 Lotus Petal
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Breakthrough
3 Izzet Charm
4 Careful Study
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

You lose LED for Lotus Petal to more consistently get UR and drop Faithless Looting for Izzet Charm, warrants testing still I have just been solitairing with it.

Another advantage is the ability to run Ground Seal post board (siding out DR and Zealot for 3 Ground Seal) in addition to having Counterspells for their GY hate

Why Play Izzet Charm over... lets say Zombie Infestation, Ideas Unbound or Wild Guess?

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Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth

Why Play Izzet Charm over... lets say Zombie Infestation, Ideas Unbound or Wild Guess?

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I see your point

I think the utility of a Spell Pierce post-board though seems good as it can also remove Scavenging Ooze and counter Surgical Extraction

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Originally Posted by Fizzeler

...I think the utility of a Spell Pierce post-board though seems good as it can also remove Scavenging Ooze and counter Surgical Extraction

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I'd rather SB Firestorm to deal with Scavenging Ooze. Not to mention that, to me, dropping Faithless Looting seems insane since I tend to cast it from the yard more often than from the hand. Izzet Charm doesn't have that option.

Please stop posting about Izzet Charm. It is not good enough. I don't have to test it to tell you that. Dredge will never play a spell that can't be cast from hand for one. Never. Otherwise, we'd all be using 4 Tolarian Winds. Sure, you may cast Breakthrough for x=1 once in a while, but that's the exception, not the rule.

And seriously, look at the cards you cut: Lion's Eye Diamond and Faithless Looting. Instead, you get Lotus Petal and Izzet Charm? Um....

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Originally Posted by TerribleTim68

I'd rather SB Firestorm to deal with Scavenging Ooze. Not to mention that, to me, dropping Faithless Looting seems insane since I tend to cast it from the yard more often than from the hand. Izzet Charm doesn't have that option.

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Point taken

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

Please stop posting about Izzet Charm. It is not good enough. I don't have to test it to tell you that. Dredge will never play a spell that can't be cast from hand for one. Never. Otherwise, we'd all be using 4 Tolarian Winds. Sure, you may cast Breakthrough for x=1 once in a while, but that's the exception, not the rule.

And seriously, look at the cards you cut: Lion's Eye Diamond and Faithless Looting. Instead, you get Lotus Petal and Izzet Charm? Um....

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Okay

On another note has anyone had positive results using Gravecrawler after board or is Nether Shadow just strictly better?

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Originally Posted by Fizzeler

...On another note has anyone had positive results using Gravecrawler after board or is Nether Shadow just strictly better?

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Gravecrawler - Costs 1 mana, no haste, 2/1.
Nether Shadow - No mana, haste, 1/1.

Personally I don't like either of them. I could see where Gravecrawler could be an issue on those times where you don't have a land because your Gemstone Mine ran out of counters or something. I don't like the small body of Nether Shadow either. But that's just me.

I'm still looking for more feedback on that "Ghoultree out of the board" situation myself.

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Originally Posted by TerribleTim68

Gravecrawler - Costs 1 mana, no haste, 2/1.
Nether Shadow - No mana, haste, 1/1.

Personally I don't like either of them. I could see where Gravecrawler could be an issue on those times where you don't have a land because your Gemstone Mine ran out of counters or something. I don't like the small body of Nether Shadow either. But that's just me.

I'm still looking for more feedback on that "Ghoultree out of the board" situation myself.

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I think the Ghoultree option is cute, but not that good, all things considered

I was thinking of Crawler because Nether Shadow is to small and Ashen Ghoul (While good) needs you to have B at your upkeep for recursion, Crawler could help you beat, but you do need a Zombie for it to be useful

Mainly I am hitting Propaganda all to often and trying to find ways to combat it, as the player will drop it and then force your ways of removing it so I need a second recurable dude that can beat as Nether Shadow is to slow and Ichorid can only com back for so long, I can see Ghoultree shining under Propaganda though

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Originally Posted by Fizzeler

I think the Ghoultree option is cute, but not that good, all things considered

I was thinking of Crawler because Nether Shadow is to small and Ashen Ghoul (While good) needs you to have B at your upkeep for recursion, Crawler could help you beat, but you do need a Zombie for it to be useful

Mainly I am hitting Propaganda all to often and trying to find ways to combat it, as the player will drop it and then force your ways of removing it so I need a second recurable dude that can beat as Nether Shadow is to slow and Ichorid can only com back for so long, I can see Ghoultree shining under Propaganda though

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Ashen Ghoul: Requires B, and needs 3 creatures above him. 3/1 haste.

Gravecrawler: Requires B, a Zombie. 2/1 no haste, can't block.

Hmm, Ashen Ghoul is strictly better than Gravecrawler.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

Ashen Ghoul: Requires B, and needs 3 creatures above him. 3/1 haste.

Gravecrawler: Requires B, a Zombie. 2/1 no haste, can't block.

Hmm, Ashen Ghoul is strictly better than Gravecrawler.

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Is Ghoul better than Nether Shadow if I only run 13 lands? (seeing as Shadow requires no mana to recur, but is very small, while Ghoul requires B, but has 3 times the power)

No, if you depend on Dread Return, then Nether Shadow is the best creature to fuel that. It all depends on your build. Ghoul and Ichorid make for grinding, aggro games. Shadow leans towards a combo build with a DR finish.

If Surgical Extraction is that big of a problem, what about running your own Surgical Extraction?

*) Counters their copy by taking the card they targeted and leaving your deck intact.
*) Stops them from Snapcaster Mage
*) No mana and instant speed
*) Synergizes with Cabal Therapy
*) Value in the mirror

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

Ashen Ghoul: Requires B, and needs 3 creatures above him. 3/1 haste.

Gravecrawler: Requires B, a Zombie. 2/1 no haste, can't block.

Hmm, Ashen Ghoul is strictly better than Gravecrawler.

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Disagree, the difference between Gravecrawler and Ashen Ghoul is that even tho' Gravecrawler is worse from your graveyard he's better from your hand, where you can play him directly and apply pressure thru' Gravecrawler and Putrid Imp beats.

I'm not saying I'd play Gravecrawler or Ashen Ghoul right, because frankly I don't care about Tormod's Crypt anymore in a world of Surgical Extractions, but Gravecrawler isn't strictly worse than Ashen Ghoul. When I did play Gravecrawler, the most annoying aspect of the card was having to play 4 Gravecrawlers and 4 Putrid Imps where Ashen Ghoul was less demanding at ~2 Ashen Ghouls and ~3 Putrid Imps.

@Anusien

I think all of the Surgical Extraction, Faerie Macabre and Coffin Purge effects are just completely unreliable, about the only way this has ever been an effective strategy (SBing directly against Surgical Extraction) is to use Street Wraith to instant speed draw your dredgers vs the 1st Surgical Extraction