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Concerning using an USea and feeling uncomfotable without the 3rd green source.
have you considered running a Bayou in its place and using Wooded Foothills as fetchlands?
I know that that's one less blue source but it gets you to 1B-3G-5U which still seems ok to me.
Not being able to pick Bayou up for Daze would manifest itself a lot more often than getting Double Wasteland'd I would imagine. Plus all your actual interaction is typically blue. Running non-blue duals I think is out of the question for a manabase this tight.
I have played the original burg list with Taiga; there's no way I'm running Bayou in this deck. I'm not concerned about 2 Trops anyway. I'm already annoyed with Bayou in Team America.
hey guys, changing the topic of the discussion: do you bring needle against grixis delver for the DRS? Or just trust in the bolt?
I feel like my board plans against Eldrazi is lacking, has anyone thought about this? What i want to do is -4 Stifle, but all i have to bring in is a +1 Dismember +1 Ancient Grudge and +1 Revelry; its pathetic.
What can we do to make this match-up better? I feel like i've done pretty well against the deck online and live, but i know we are most likely un-favored. Winter Orb, Submerge, Rough, Fluster, REB, Sylvan... all are do nothings against this deck.
Is Loam/Waste lock a thing vs Eldrazi and worth trying?
Do you simply keep them off balance and race? That's usually been my plan.
I've heard people talk about Prince of Progress, but i dont know why taking 4 damage is any good against an aggro deck, even if they are also taking 6 damage. The life race seems to be very tight all the time. However, 2 PoP's in the board could be nice against other decks, too.
Wtf, I was just thinking the exact same half an hour ago. I as well only have these three cards to bring, so I usually bring an extraction as well, but yeah I would prefer a better card in the sideboard against them. I want to test PoP, it's good against lands as well and they rarely expect it coming from our deck. The thing is, if 4 life points it's that big of a deal to play PoP against eldrazi in a given moment, we probably are not going to win the game anyway. PoP can do work against more fringe decks like 12-post or mud as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by LewisCBR
Price of Progress is great against them. Even better when they use Ancient Tomb a few times. A second (or third) Dismember in the board also helps.
I usually board like this:
+2 Price of Progress
+1 Winter Orb
+1 Destructive Revelry
+1 Ancient Grudge
-4 Stifle
-1 Spell Pierce (on the draw) / -1 Forked Bolt (on the play)
Winter Orb is really good against them, as well. Save your Wastelands for Cavern of Souls and Eye of Ugin to make Daze useful.
Sounds about right, i didnt think there were any magic bullets out there. PoP just feels like a nom-bo with Wasteland and the mana denial plan, in general, but it seems worth a shot. Thanks.
For eldrazi I actually cut 2 Nimble Mongoose, 2 stifle, 2 spell pierce and bring in 2 artifact destruction (grudge/grip/revelry, etc. People are often running a different split of these. Just bring in whatever 2 you have), 1 clique, and 2 rough // tumble, and a dismember.
Hear me out on rough tumble- I've actually won ever game I've drawn it, I tested the matchup with my friend ad nauseam the other night. A lot of times they shit out a bunch of mimics / reshapers / endless ones fast. This is hard to deal with. Rough clears the board out and slows down their aggressive starts. Otherwise, for example they have mimic + TKS on board. you can Rough + bolt to effectively trade 2 for 2 with them.
I cut 2 goose and add 1 clique because nimble is just out classed so quickly. Additionally, if we want to cast early rough // tumble, goose is also at odds with that plan. You never feel good about trading a goose for a reshaper and otherwise the eldrazi deck just has bigger threats. You really need the evasion and clock from clique rather than goose. I leave 2 stifles in for their wastelands, TKS trigger, mimic trigger, jitte trigger, and most importantly, they will probably side in ratchet bomb to kill your goyf.
I've also had good experiences with playing a flex slot or two to grow goyf past 4/5. This plus their artifacts means goyf is regularly 6/7!
With my Painful Truths list, I board out the Stifles for 2 Grudge, 1 Orb, 1 Pierce. I like that plan.
I've tried Loam and think it's terrible in this deck. It's too unreliable and eats up too much mana. I only like Loam with mana acceleration.
In my experience, the games I lose are the ones where they start resolving Smashers and Seers. Tarmogoyf is the most impactful card in the matchup and I feel you should be alright if you run four, which most of you do.
I'm trying out a few things again that I'm not entirely sold on. The deck hasn't been really been performing for me over the past week (much of that is due to the massive metagame shift online in anticipation of the Grand Prix weekend). This is very unfortunate, because I want to test, but I barely get to play against what I expect to be the winning metagame in Prague. Instead, I have to play against Burn and Dredge variants a lot, which is disheartening both because those aren't great matchups and because I feel I'm wasting my time there.
(Wow, seeing this post, it looks very arrogant.)
But it's true, arrogant or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander
I mean, look, the lines of play in these matchups are comparatively simple and typically come down to whether you have 'it' or you don't. And in that regard, "playtesting" against them is a waste of time for tournament-preparation purposes, because decks like these are really nothing more than outliers that tend to be encountered in the earlier rounds and increasingly get kicked off the X-0 bracket as the tournament goes on.
To be fair, they are competitive decks, technically speaking, but because of their linearity they aren't very fun decks to play or play against. And I think their linearity and weakness to hate is why, generally speaking, competitive players already invested in the format dislike registering them in a large-scale tournament.
Occasionally there might be an interesting, interactive game against these two matchups, but all too often it's just an exercise in frustration. Rolling die or flipping coins would probably yield similar results as playtesting the matchup. The results tend to be very draw-dependent.
I think that it's worth knowing the matchups to give yourself a chance at winning, but yeah, I kind of doubt that either of these decks will be making the Grand Prix's Top 8 and neither deck is probably worth devoting much/any sideboard space towards.
Regarding the Eldrazi matchup:
Well, first of all, I decided to move the Winter Orb to the sideboard (2 copies total, but both in SB). I love the card, I really do, but I am taking RUG to the Grand Prix this coming weekend and I feel like the American metagame is so random that I would probably benefit more from another Tarmogoyf in the MD to help deal with random fringe decks that still see a lot of play (goblins, merfolk, slivers, burn, etc.), especially in the early rounds. Against UWr Miracles (which is where Orb *really* shines), I actually feel fairly favored in game 1 as long as they don't get a nut draw of un-answered T1 SDT, T2 CBalance. In Games 2 and 3 I have sideboard slots that make the matchup even easier. While Orb does a ton of work, I think (at least right now) I just want another threat in that slot that's far less random.
Okay, so with 3 Tarmogoyfs we have better potential of matching up with Eldrazi on the ground. With the various card-types being played, growing Goyf to a 4/5 or 5/6 is not unusual.
Sideboarding, I go like this:
-4 Nimble Mongoose
-4 Stifle
-1 Spell Pierce
+2 Rough // Tumble
+2 Ancient Grudge
+2 True-name Nemesis
+2 Winter Orb
+1 Sylvan Library
Nimble Mongoose tends to match incredibly poorly against the majority of their threats, especially since by the time you reach threshold it may be too late to really do anything aside from chump-block. Stifle does pretty much nothing, and Spell Pierce has only a few targets and it's likely that with all of the Sol Lands they play that it wouldn't resolve favorably anyways.
Rough//Tumble can sometimes take out several of the smaller Eldrazi or at least finish off the bigger ones.
Ancient Grudge takes care of Chalice set to 1, and some lists might bring in a Jitte as a target. Ratchet Bomb is popular as well (though for that, perhaps you'll have Spell Snare).
TNN is a sturdy wall and an unblockable threat, so he comes in.
Sylvan Library comes in since the games can tend to go long, and at worst, having a free Mirri's Guile isn't bad.
Regarding Winter Orb: to be completely honest, in the Eldrazi matchup it isn't always good, but sometimes it's worth a shot. Ideally, they won't draw Eye of Ugin and will instead have to actually tap their lands. I don't know; maybe it's not even worth it and we should just keep in Spell Pierce and a Mongoose. But with Orb, there are occasionally games where they tap out for something big, you counter it (ideally with an unopposed threat already deployed) and then follow up with an Orb, setting them back a few turns (or perhaps at least putting their next attempt(s) into Daze-range).
Cavern of Souls needs to be your Wastelands' targeted priority since the only way we tend to win is by being able to counter their 'important' stuff (TKS, big Endless Ones, the hasty-5/5, etc.). But obviously you take what you can get, and sometimes you can out-race them if you resolved an early Delver and they're stuck with Ancient Tomb(s) as their only land.
It's definitely not a good matchup (40-60 AT BEST, and probably more likely 30-70), and ideally you can just dodge it entirely. But I have actually managed to win a few matches against the deck, though of course a fair bit of luck was involved.
edit: more testing has made it somewhat apparent that Winter Orb tends to just not be all that helpful against this particular deck. I think you're probably better off just leaving in Nimble Mongoose and/or Spell Pierce.
wcm8 we have arrived at similar board plans for eldrazi, this makes me feel good about my conclusions. I don't have any TNNs in my deck however if I did I would certainly bring them in against Eldrazi. Little bit of a nonbo with rough // tumble though so be careful!
Very true, but if it's a matter of life or death, I'll gladly trade my TNN for killing off their board.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
Ideally though, you can time it right and cast R//T *before* your TNN.
I have had the following happen: I'm on the play and land a turn 1 Delver, pass. Eldrazi opponent opens with an Eye of Ugin, casts 2 Eldrazi Mimic and an Endless One with x=2. He's probably all smug in the knowledge that racing that kind of board state is going to be pretty damn difficult, especially if he follows up with some bigger Eldrazi. He passes. I reveal some sort of spell, flip the Delver, play a second Land and cast Rough, one-sided Wrath'ing his entire board and swing in for 3. Then Daze whatever his turn 2 play was.
[player X has conceded the game]
I mean, yeah, it was literally Magical Christmas Land, but that's the sort of thing it's going to take on occasion for us to get there.
It is *NOT* a good matchup, and if I knew for a fact that I was going to be facing Eldrazi for multiple rounds in a given tournament, I'm not so sure that I'd be slinging RUG Delver that day.
The thing is, at worst R//T will kill off their smaller Eldrazi on your own turn and can help finish off the bigger ones with the addition of combat damage/Lightning Bolt/Dismember. So I think unless you have something better to bring in, it's a good option.
Good luck to everyone attending the Grand Prix this weekend.
Yea, I totally agree. Those are the most difficult starts for RUG to deal with since our removal is extremely constrained throughout the match up. I had several of those in play testing with my friend.
RUG delver is the only unbeaten deck in GP prague as of now, 11-0. He is playing hooting mandrils instead of the goose tho, I suppose to have aa better eldrazi pairing
8-3, about to begin round 12 on day 2.
If I knew I was going to face Death and fucking Taxes FOUR times day 1 (which is where I got the 3 losses) I would've been packing sulfur elementals and probably forked bolts in the main or at least a split with dismember.
Oh well, hind-sight 20/20 etc.
Onto the next round.
12-3
Didn't play black; cut the Truths for the third Orb and a Surgical Extraction. Report yes/no?
yes of course. Congrats on the finishQuote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander
Good showing guys!
I'm really digging the look of the GP Prague top 8 list, too.
Finished 11-4. Fingers crossed for making cut for top 64. My other loss was to GB grindy elves.
I did not face Miracles a single time, and never actually resolved a Winter Orb the entire tournament.
Had I been placed at the higher tables where all the Miracles players were congregated, they would've been fantastic. But GPs are just so random. Definitely learned my lesson about respecting the DnT matchup though. To be honest, it seemed very beatable in testing, but maybe the online pilots were just way worse.
Historically, it is supposed to be one of the harder match-ups for this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
I didn't make the cut to top 64 as my tie-breakers were quite awful; though to be fair, almost everyone who made top 33 thru 64 had 33 points (11-4 records) which is what I got. And had this been a slightly larger event, the pay-out would have extended beyond and I would have made some money.
Alas.
I might write up a bit more in-depth report later, but here is the gist of it:
Went in with 0 byes, which always makes it harder.
Day 1
Rd1: 1-2 vs. UW DnT (blue splash for Geist of St. Traft and Meddling Mage in the board. I lost a VERY close game 3 when he was able to vial in a 2nd geist for exactly lethal dmg; he would've died on the back swing)
Rd2: 2-0 vs. DnT (mono-white version)
Rd3: 0-2 vs. DnT (mono-white version) --- nut draws with t1 Vials both games, infinite SFM + Flickerwisp, etc.
Rd4: 2-0 vs. Burn
Rd5: 2-0 vs. Goblins
Rd6: 0-2 vs. DnT (mono-white) --- nut draws again; can't beat a god hand on their part. Wish I had brought Sulfur Elemental this tournament.
Rd7: 2-1 vs. GB Elves
Rd8: 2-1 vs. UG Infect
Rd9: 2-0 vs. Eldrazi (yes, I got *extremely* lucky)
Day 2
Day 2
Rd10: 2-0 vs. Esper Blade
Rd11: 2-1 vs. RG Lands (also lucky; landed 2 TNN early enough to race him, actually named Pithing Needle on Wasteland so he couldn't Tabernacle me out of the game)
Rd12: 0-2 vs. GB Elves (the grindier version that eschews Natural Order for more midrange cards like Packmaster etc.)
Rd13: 2-0 vs. BGRw Loam (got lucky; had removal for his Dark Confidants and counters for his Lilianas; Mongoose was amazing here)
Rd14: 2-0 vs. BGw Elves (white splash for Pridemage and Teeg in board; this version is easier to beat because as long as you can counter Natural Order it's a lot easier to manage to race them. He did get me down to 1 life in game 2, but I had double bolt and a flipped Delver to take him from 9 to 0)
Rd15: 2-0 vs. Mono-Black Reanimator (Stifle was key here, as was Spell Snare)
End result was 11-4. But taking those losses earlier on Day 1 made it so I was much less likely to place.
I think I would probably make a few minor tweaks to this build of the deck, but overall it ran great. Definitely going to make a few adjustments to specifically address Death and Taxes, and not just because of confirmation bias of me getting paired against it 4 times. The deck was fucking everywhere, and as a legitimately competitive "budget" option and quite a few key-reprints in EMA bringing the price of some its staples down, it's only going to become more popular. It's definitely beatable with some luck, but there needs to be *at least* 1 Sulfur Elemental or similar card in the board in addition to other cards.
I am interested in giving the GP Prague version with Hooting Mandrills a try, and I also want to give the 4c Delver deck that Daniel Signorini was playing a go (once the deck list finally gets published. He missed the cut to top 8 by something like 0.5% or some bullshit like that, was bummed to see him not make the cut).
I loved running Mandrills back about a year ago, just haven't touched this deck since. But, if I get a chance to play my Alpha Winter Orbs, I'm fucking interested.
Can you post the 4C list when it's up?
Dan Signorini's 4c Delver list
(9th place GP Columbus, missing cut to top 8 by 0.5% tie-breakers)
3 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
2 tropical island
2 volcanic island
2 underground sea
4 wasteland
4 Delver of secrets
4 Deathrite shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Gurmag Angler
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 force of will
4 daze
3 stifle
2 spell pierce
4 lightning bolt
3 abrupt decay
SB:
1 forked bolt
1 flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 ancient grudge
1 diabolic edict
2 golgari charm
2 painful truths
2 surgical extraction
1 vendilion clique
1 true-name nemesis
1 murderous cut
Huge Fan of it, i will try it :) but i think this post is better suited for the 4 Color Delver Thread :)Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
Yep, I was just posting it since I mentioned it and sdmatt requested it.Quote:
Originally Posted by blablub
This list obviously hybridizes BUG and RUG into one amazing pile of 75 -- the best of both worlds at the cost of occasionally getting mana-screwed.
Anyways, I see that there was a RUG Delver pilot in the top 32. Perhaps he wil offer a report of his experiences?
Unrelated: I wonder if there will be more grumbling and calls for the banning of SDT, what with half the top 8 consisting of Miracles. But really aside from its power-level, the more annoying aspect is the time consideration. The card definitely drags the tournament process to a halt; basically every single round went to time and 95% of the time, at least one of the players in rounds was playing Top.
I'm not sure if the hypothetical banning would be a gain or a loss for RUG. The matchup is very winnable, though there are those games that are basically impossible to win.
Wow, such an amazing decklist. Anyone knows about the SB strategy? Blood Moons?Quote:
Originally Posted by blablub
Is this decklist being discussed somewhere else?
While one of our Canadian threshold brethren was out making top 8 in Prague I was doing my best in Columbus. Day 1 I finished 8/1 dropping round 8 to lands in 3.
Day 2 I dropped round 11 to dark bant, round 13 to eldrazi and finally round 15 the one that would let me crack top 64 to dredge of all things. I'll write up a proper report when I get back in Seattle. Most importantly I had fun saw old friends and made a lot of new ones.
All in all I think it would be a loss for rug. Miracles is by no means favorable but very close 50/50 assuming both are competent players. With that being said it's very easy to find incompetent miracle players that still don't know their deck. The problem with it getting banned is it opens the flood gates of elves and jund neither of which are 50/50 by any means. I hate that I'm advocating for a deck that's pushing others out of the format, but it would definitely be a loss for rug in the long run.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
It looks good until I think of the miracles match up. Honestly nimble mongoose singlehandedly well paired with stifle makes that match up good. There's a reason why I don't like other delver decks because they're so cold to miracles main deck or so it seems.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
A fairly huge advantage of his list is that he doesn't just roll over and die to a resolved Counterbalance or Chalice set to 1. (Yes, yes, I have fought and won through these myself with RUG; it's just a heck of a lot easier with abrupt decay).
I think every flavor of delver has its advantages and disadvantages, the best choice seems to come down to the expected metagame. Unless they someday print something that makes one color-variant far and away superior to all the others, there's legitimate justification in running just about every Delver variant.
In what matchups do you want Winter Orb aside from Miracles?
When you want to show off the pimps.Quote:
Originally Posted by NARO
Heard it is also good against Eldrazi when you're nutting their manabase with Wastelands.
I'd prefer to see a Terminus ban. Just my two cents.
Agreed 100%. I'd vote for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I'll write my report some time this week. I go below 1 Winter Orb in almost no matchups, pretty much only against decks without lands and in the Delver mirror. I won every game I cast Orb in Prague, although I didn't draw it quite often.
Miracles is an absurdly good matchup for my list and Canadian wouldn't benefit from a ban. Let them have Terminus, I just don't want to play against Supreme Verdict.
That 4c Delver list looks horrible, IMO. Full set of Wastelands, 4 colors, and 3 Stifles, wtf is going on here... thats the greediest list i've ever seen. There are only really 15 lands and you need all 3 of your blue duals to operate effectively. Screw that, i've hammered so many 4c Delver and 4c Stone Forge decks online who think they can just jam the good stuffs.
Not my kind of list. These are the kind of decks that usually get punished at a Grand Prix, as they can probably run OK in a small tournament, but no way (usually) that mana base holds up for 15 rounds. That guy must have had a hell of a hot streak, or somehow dodged all the Wasteland decks.
Dan Signorini is a fairly well known and respected player. He's credited for developing the original Team America deck, and he's made Top 8 in legacy Grand Prixs several times in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by LewisCBR
I don't disagree that you have to get somewhat lucky to make top 16, but dismissing it outright is missing the strengths of that list and the skill of the player in question. "Dark Thresh" lists have been running 3/3 Tropical/Sea and fetches for years now, and that was without the help of Deathrite Shaman. He's only jamming Red for main-deck Bolts and SB options. I actually don't think the mana base is all that weak. It's actually quite ingeniously designed, the deck is capable of always leaving up at least 1 mana to interact on its opponent's turn yet still deploy 1 mana threats.
Sooooo, how about that RUG list with hooting mandrils that got 7th place at Columbus?
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Hooting Mandrills
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique
1 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
1 Forked Bolt
1 Fire // Ice
1 Dismember
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Submerge
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Price of Progress
Seems like a wierd choice to me since Nimble mongoose is like half the reason I love this deck. Still, the result is pretty fuckin solid.