I'm not sure if this deck can afford to play Countersquall. You don't keep the mana up for that longQuote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
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I'm not sure if this deck can afford to play Countersquall. You don't keep the mana up for that longQuote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
I wasn't suggesting that we play Countersquall, I simply said it's probably better than Charm. We for sure have other things to do that cost two.
What do you guys board in/out against Miracles. Also, anyone else playing a Stifle build Or am I alone?
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post881989Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
From my most recent list I would board in the following manner versus Miracles:
On the Play
-3 Daze
-4 Wasteland
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Null Rod
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Sylvan Library
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Vendilion Clique
On the Draw
-4 Daze
-3 Wasteland
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Null Rod
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Sylvan Library
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Vendilion Clique
I am trying to cut the lower impact cards and bring in proactive answers to their threats. Flusterstorm, Thoughtseize, and Echoing Truth help us fight various cards on the stack, in hand or once in play. I like being able to pick Jaces from their hand with Thoughtseize and the other maindeck discard. Flusterstorm fights the Terminuses, Entreats, and any counter wars. Echoing Truth allows us a cheap way to get out from under an Entreat, while also serving double duty against troublesome permanents such as RiP, Counterbalance, and Jace. Krosan Grip is an extra way to deal with Counterbalance and other enchantments that they may bring in such as Humility, Blood Moon, and/or RiP. Null Rod proactively shuts down Top and any equipment they may bring in as some builds use SFM and/or Batterskull as an alternate win condition. [cards]Sylvan Library/cards] is just a great way to gain some card advantage. They typically don't pressure your life total very drastically so you can spend some life drawing cards. Also, anytime your creatures get StPed, you are gaining life to draw another card. Finally Clique is a good way to pressure Jace, while also serving the purpose of being able to cycle Miracles out of your opponent's hand. This buys you combats or draw steps. My current list, containing Hymns and Lili, does a good job of keeping them off of resources and dependent on Top. If you can cut off Top by countering or Null Rod, you are in pretty good shape. People bemoan this match up, but Miracles players don't really have all that many win cons. If you keep Jace and Entreat from resolving you are doing fine.
I don't really like Daze or Wasteland in this match up. Our opponents can normally play around Daze and fetch around Wasteland. If you are playing Stifle, Wasteland gains some value as their naturally drawn lands may be must more important. The cards each become more powerful by playing the others; however, this in an actual game requires you to get them with a Stifle.
There are some high impact cards like Zur's Weirding, Garruk Relentless, and to a lesser extent Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver that are just very hard for Miracles to beat. Zur's Weirding basically locks them out of the game. Garruk is basically a must answer permanent as it generates threats every turn that pressure planeswalkers and life totals. Admittedly, I have not run the Garruk tech yet, but saw it work fantastically in an event that I was judging. Ashiok is the weakest of these but exiling three resources each turn, with the potential to snag a Snapcaster or Clique is fine. With their low threat density and decent creatures it can be a tough permanent for them to deal with. It attacks on a different axis than the rest of our deck, which can be good or bad. It is also pretty decent in the mirror match, assuming that you resolve it.
This is how i would board with your list
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Dark Confidant
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dimir Charm
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Force of Will
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Flusterstorm
2 Disfigure
1 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Echoing Truth
1 Sylvan Library
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Murderous Cut
Out 4 daze, 1 tasigur, 1 wasteland, 1 goyf. In 1 surgical, 1 flusterstorm, 1 null rod, 1 echoing truth, 1 sylvan library, 1 krosan grip, 1 vendilion clique.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang with some protection not only ends games but is also a solid way to generate some card advantage. I have liked having him in the deck for this match up. Tarmogoyf ends games. If my opponent shows me that they are on Rest in Peace in game two, then I would board one-two out for game three. Tasigur is also a possibility here. Surgical Extraction can be a good way to fight Snapcaster Mage and to narrow down countered win cons. That is a fair point.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
If you happen to counter a senseis and then surgical, it can be hugely in your favor. Getting rid of terminus or plows can also speed up the clock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
Narrow, but you have discard just for this purpose.
You really shouldn't be wasting counters or protection to protect a Tasigur in this matchup.
You are correct that extracting Tops is a huge gain. However a lot of things have to go right for you/us in this scenario. They have to have the top (which they usually do), you have to have the counterspell (probably not too hard to do) and the extraction (1 in 60). Your opponent has to not have a counterspell (not impossible but rare). I am not saying that it is impossible. If this is your game plan post board, it will probably happen a fair number of times, but you do have to draw that extraction. It is just really hard for me to justify this as the go-to plan when there is only one extraction. Hitting a countered win con or a removal spell are also fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Threats like Tasigur and Bob are great as they give us more cards. This better equips us to continue the fight as the games can go long. After delving away garbage when you cast him, he is going to get you back solid cards like cantrips, which allow us to find what we need in any given spot, and in some cases creatures. I think a lot of this decision comes down to the particular build that you are facing. Is it the more Joe Losset style build or the Phillip Scoenegger build? I guess it could be someone's random pet brew as well. You have to play against what they show you. I would not board out Tasigur unless I see a RiP in game two. He is a decent clock and can net cards. Both are great things in this matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Hi Everyone,
I am new to this deck and legacy in general. I am slowly building the pieces for this deck but I have a question for you guys.
I have seen some lists that are more blue heavy that run Stifle and True-Name Nemesis (sometimes even Jace in the sideboard), and additionally, I have seen lists that are more black heavy running Hymn to Tourach and Liliana.
What are your thoughts on the pros and cons of these different directions. Are both options viable? Or is one much stronger than the other?
If it makes a difference, my current meta is heavy on death & taxes and Maverick type decks, as well as "budget" combo decks like manaless dredge and omnishow. Which do you think would work out better in a meta like that?
Here is my tentative list that I am working on, is this a good direction to take the deck? I haven't decided on a full sideboard yet, so suggestions there would be helpful as well. I greatly appreciate any advice you guys have to give :)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Dark Confidant
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang (or Gurmag Angler to avoid Karakas?)
1 True-name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtsieze
3 Daze
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
Tentative Sideboard:
1 Force of Will
2 Duress
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Murderous Cut
Further Suggestions?
I personally feel that 16 creatures is far too many. Our Delvers have the worst flip rate of any real Delver decks, so I feel like 14 is that max for me (I usually play 13). I'd cut the Tasigur and probably a Confidant from you above list myself.
I'd probably add back a Daze and a Force. This opens up your sideboard. If you see so much D&T and Maverick, I would consider Disfigure, Golgari Charms and Dread of Night. If you see a really great deal of Maverick and other Green (non-Elves) I'd consider Submerge. Life from the Loam is a good choice to help you play around mana denial from both those kinds of decks.
Since you see Dredge I would add a Surgical in place of one of the Cages, since you can board in Surgical versus Omni, even if it isn't great.
You should probably also have at least one Sylvan Library in the 75. I play mine main, since I often see Miracles, but side is also fine. I find it lets you play a few less threats, while not being easily removed.
Hey all. I just started playing this deck coming from jund and elves and I love it. I am still a bit iffy on boarding. Here is my list, sorry it's on my phone so it's going to be abreviated.
4 verdant
4 polluted
4 wasteland
3 Usea
2 bayou
1 trop
1 misty
1 swamp (will be Used when I can get another)
4 goyf
4 delver
4 drs
1 tombstalker
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 Fow
4 decay
4 daze
3 hymn
1 thought seize
1 spell pierce
2 lili
Board
2 disfigured
2 needle
1 clique
1 library
1 flusterstorm
1 surgical
1 envelope
1 zur's weirding
1 golgari charm
1 deluge
1 thoughtseize
1 graf diggers cage
1 divert
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
BoardQuote:
Originally Posted by jim111589
2 disfigured
2 needle (1 needle, 1 null rod)
1 clique
1 library
1 flusterstorm (i never found this too useful)
1 surgical
1 envelope
1 zur's weirding (very narrow, only really good for a miracles matchup. I am playing garruk now in this slot since i can use it against Jund, Miracles, maverick, and the sorts. I know its not a blow out on the field, but our deck should suffice to pull out a win)
1 golgari charm
1 deluge
1 thoughtseize
1 graf diggers cage
1 divert (should really be used in a stifle build only, i would consider envelop or dispel)
of your board, i'd change it as follows
The 2 needles was a last minute choice and it will probably be the split in the next tournament. My meta is somewhat miricles heavy I usualy play 1-2 miricles decks in a 5 round event so I feel I should leave it in. As for the divert in the flusterstorm, I'm open to sugestions. And what is the boarding plan for jund, DnT and more common decks?Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Also, my meta is 3-4 dnt, 5-6 miricles, 4-5 jund and merfolk, 3 omni then a handful of t2 stuff
I can't remember my exact SB and plan vs Miracles off the top of my head but I have a Winter Orb which is really effective. Has some nice splash damage vs Lands too, which feels almost unwinnable without it.
I honestly feel that the Swamp is a major hindrance. I personally would rather play 10 Fetches than any basic, because no matter which you pick, it's awful. Our manabase is already bad, a Basic makes it much worse. We already have a hard enough time because of Bayou (and Bayou is absolutely neccessary in the Hymn build), due to it making it much harder to keep a 1 (Bayou) Land, multiple cantrip hand. Any basic exacerbates this problem. Swamp is too awkward with Daze and Cantrips. Island is not congruent with Hymn and Deathrite. I'm not even going to pretend that a Forest is an option. While another fetch is bad, I feel it's not as bad as a Basic.
I think you board is constructed fine, although I would not play Weirding (4 CMC is too high to be impactful I feel). I would definitely split 1 Needle and 1 Null Rod (both are great versus Miracles, but Null Rod can randomly be OK versus Storm, Belcher, Affinity, Equipment decks). I have no real experience playing Divert though, but I would consider making it a Life from the Loam, cosidering you play against Jund and D&T it seems.
Versus Jund, you are looking to make your deck look more like theirs. The matchup though is decidedly in their favor though. I board out countermagic, board in removal and all the removal you have (and the Clique). The problem here is that both your discard and your counters are bad, but it's a toss up which are worse. If you are going to win, it will be through the fact that you have cantrips, so your draw will hopefully be more smooth than theirs, you manage to win the Deathrite war, or you manage to keep your fliers on the table, or some combination. I would probably bring in Library here and maybe take out a Lili (they are a better Lili deck than us), but probably not. If they play Punishing Fire, you have to bring in Surgical, I feel.
Versus D&T, you would board out countermagic too, most probably, then bring in all the same cards you did versus Jund (not Surgical though, Library is a toss up). You are probably going to have to win in the same way too, so protect your fliers, the ground will get clogged fast.
Sorry, I'm at work, so those were just some brief thoughts.
EDIT:
Yeah, I play it too. In fact, apparently Joe Lossett was complaining on his stream about me playing it versus him (or so someone told me) :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
I also like it versus 12 Post, or whatever people call that deck now-a-days.
in THAT meta, you definitely do not need flusterstorm. Play 2 envelops. This will help your Miracles matchup tremendously. Garruk has also helped me out fairly well.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim111589
the DNT, you need 2 golgari charm, and 1 dread of night. This will handle them wholeheartedly.
Jund - you need to play a big fatty like gurmag or tombstalker. They have no answer to that. unless they play maelstrom pulse (which is a 1 of)
Thanks for all the quick responses. So from the looks of it il take out the flusterstorm and divert for golgari charm and either another envelop or a dread of night
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Haha, nice! I watched that stream actually, good work. It seems to be quite underplayed for how big an effect it can have in bad matchups. I've only faced 12-post once with TA and managed to win without the Orb by finding enough wastelands with early pressure, but I can see it being really effective. Especially as posts CIPT.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
Except for that 4-of, best card in the deck, Liliana. I used to play Jund religiously and was always happy to face TA. The only times I lost were due to T1 Delver > Daze > Waste + Delver/Pierce etc and me having an awkward draw. It's rough.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
You need to be able to combat Punishing Fire somehow, otherwise you'll get streamrolled by it. Surgical is probably the most commonly played answer to it.
you can remedy that by playing a garruk or winter orb. Winter orb can double up on miracles as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
Pithing Needle FTW!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
I am not sure whether you already heard of it, but there's this card Jund plays, it's called "Abrupt Decay".Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
there's a card to answer every card....this is similar to the "it does to removal argument"Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
if you play it right, they would be using quite a bit of resources (they have no library manipulation) to get the 4 decays.
Dark Confidant??? Sylvan Library??? Oh, and Kolaghan's Command will see play as well, I'm pretty sure about that. So why should Pithing Needle be any good? It's a poor answer. Spell Pierce is better, it's also one of the best cards to have against Jund. Other than that, your own Abrupt Decays are still the best out. Even Hero's Downfall would be a better card than Needle for that matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
alright. whateverQuote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Yep. Winter Orb is great right now. It's actually pretty good against Grixis in addition to everything else - they need to tap out a lot to Dig and make tokens, letting us maximize Daze, leverage Deathrite, and take advantage of the fact that our cards are better than theirs when they don't get to reload as often.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
Also, when did you play Lossett? I'd like to see the video.
I played him at the last SCG Dallas PIQ. We ended up drawing, I won a grinding game 1, he won a grinding game 2 as we went to extra turns. I ended up 2-0-1 versus Miracles that day, finishing 5-2-1 with losses to UR Delver and a hard luck loss to RUG.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Sorry - I thought you meant it was on MTGO. Rough beats with RUG though.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
Unfortunately all I own is paper (or maybe fortunately? haha) so no videos exist of me playing. My games versus Miracles are very grinding, as I almost never play more than one creature at a time. This makes every game take forever. My plan is also to lock down Top, one way or another though. Their deck is not great when they don't have access to Top.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
I've found though that recently, while I have been successful versus Miracles, my record versus RUG has been bad. In that match, I won a long game one, then lost a quick game two and three, each time to a bevvy of Stifles, Wastlands, Dazes, and quick flipped Delvers.
Greetings All!
I split/won Legacy at my LGS last night. You can see my previous list here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post881989 I have made one change from that list, and it is -1 Hymn to Tourach and +1 Thoughtseize. My though process being that Hymn is very often clunky and hard to sequence effectively and that 'Seize gives you a bit more flexibility in the early turns and the information.
Round 1 - Omnishow - [2-0]
A combination of Delver, discard, and counter magic wins me game one. I board -2 Abrupt Decay, -3 Daze, +1 Surgical Extraction, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Thoughtseize, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Vendilion Clique. I should have boarded another Decay out for the Krosan Grip. Thought process being, I don't want to be cold to something stupid like Blood Moon or Ensnaring Bridge. I think with a Decay, a Lili, and a Grip you should be good for the 2-3 copies of these items that they could bring in. Game two was very sketchy. I have a hand full of counter magic that is quickly invalidated by a Boseiju, Who Shelters All. Luckily, I Brainstorm into some discard which buys me time. On my opponent's turn before my lethal attack, he casts and uncounterable Show and Tell. He puts Omni into play and I put a Deathrite into play. He has two open mana and my hand/board are three untapped lands, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Daze, Force of Will, Brainstorm, and Echoing Truth. He casts a Brainstorm for free, which I Flusterstorm. He pays for two tapping out and casts a Spell Pierce to counter the last copy. I then Echoing Truth the Omni with both Daze and FoW back up. He concedes. The match up felt fine you just have to keep your interaction up.
Round 2 - Bant Infect - [2-0]
I have Delver into removal spells game one. Sideboard -1 Thoughtseize, -2 Hymn to Tourach, -1 Dimir Charm, -3 Daze; +1 Flusterstorm, +2 Disfigure, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Murderous Cut. There might be some logic to leaving in a second Daze. Keeping Infect creatures off the table is important and Daze is a great way to do while still being proactive. I am interested in your guys' thoughts here. How would you board? Game two sees two of my Delvers getting StPed while he gets me to 6 poison before I take him off of creatures. I finish him off with a pair of Goyfs in play and a pair of FoW in hand.
Round 3 - ID - [0-0-3]
I end up first which was good for a bunch of store credit. Deck feels great. I may give the Dark Confidant heavy version a try here in the next few weeks. I cast Tasigur once and it would have been fine/better as a Bob or a Goyf. The sideboard always leaves me wondering what I could be doing differently. There were a few (2-I think) Miracles decks in the room; however, I didn't get paired against them. I am wondering about Garruk Relentless for the Miracles and slow/fair match ups. I am very back and forth on the three grave hate cards. Weeks where I play Dredge, Oops All Spells, or Reanimator I am very glad that I have them. Yet there was one graveyard (Oops All Spells) deck in the room this week, so it might be fine to shave one slot to test another card. Overall I am very happy with the deck... it always comes down to tuning the last 2-4 slots in the maindeck and a few slots in the sideboard. Anyway, thanks for reading and let me know what you think about my boarding for the matches listed.
What is our best approach to beating Goblins. Mono red, plays Blood Moon main. Seems bad for us.
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
Win rounds 1, 2, and 3. I don't think we're likely to beat a tribal swarm deck with MD Blood Moon without spending board slots we need for more common opponents. If it's an LGS thing, then either maindeck a Golgari Charm since it kills most Goblins and Moon or maybe play another deck for a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
we lose to pretty much all swarming decks man. thats the way of life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Elves, goblins, merfolk
Well thanks for those inspiring words. I didn't ask what the percentages were, just a strategy to give me the best chance. I get its rough, I would just like my best shot at it. Anyone who has a strategy, I'd love to hear it.
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
Get a Delver beating in the air asap and try to control the ground with goyfs, DRSs and cheap removal spells for the haste enablers. That's the gameplan, executing it is pretty tough though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Land a tarmogoyf and then don't tap out of BG unless you have a force.
Thanks, is there a sideboard plan, and if you had one slot in your board dedicated to beating swarm decks, goblins for the sake of discussion, what would it be?
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
Gotta be E Plague at the moment as it's also fine vs DnT, Elves and Pyromancer decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Board out your whole FoW's & Daze's because of they're 4 Cavern of Souls & 4 Aether Vial, bring in cards like Golgari Charm, Plague, Disfigure, Needle, Murderous Cut etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Lili can go too but it depends on the mass of cards you can bring in G2 G3.
Concentrate your removal on Vial, Warchief, Lackey & Blood Moon.
Close the game as early as possible & take they're creatures under fire, because we will loose the long game against Ringleader & Matron.
Ringleader is they're way to victory but you can't counter it because of Cavern/Vial, if you're on the stifle version you have a much easier time winning.
But it's still a very tough spot, especially with MD Blood Moon, dont worry to much about this MU it's very rare nowadays.
Hope I could help you a bit.
Thanks. I ask because I have a tournament Saturday and I am expecting to see it.
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
1 approach I'm leaning towards on is having a swamp and maybe 1-2 toxic deluges in the side board. Or -1 underground sea and +1 swamp since bug delver is a bit heavy on black. Toxic Deluge clears out swarming tribal decks entirely for an additional cost of 2 life. Also kills magus of the moon from mono red stompy which I feel is also a problem of the deck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Top 4'ed the event. In the 5 rds of swiss, i beat Mud, UW mentor w/ SFM and DTT, merfolk, lost to omni and junkblade, quarters I beat omni, semi's I lost a close match with rug delver.
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!