All right thanks. I thought he meant all in one turn but I guess he means in progressing turns, and in that case that would make sense.
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All right thanks. I thought he meant all in one turn but I guess he means in progressing turns, and in that case that would make sense.
A bit of clarification here. While I cannot attest to the situation most recently described, I can describe mine.
I had three Ichorids and one Narcomoeba in play. My opponent had countered my PImp, so was at eighteen life, and I didn't want to chance another turn. Plus the fact that I would have to remove an Ichorid to attack with two the next turn. This was all from slow dredging.
I had a Breakthrough in hand, one Bridge in play, and two Narcomoebas still in the deck, so a resolved Breakthrough was a win. Looking directly at my opponent, I pushed two Ichorids and the Narco into the yard and announced "Flashback Dread Return? Trigger Bridges?" He paused while I resolved the triggers and glanced at his three-card hand. He then faux-casually asked "Targetting?" At this point I was reading him on out-thinking himself. When I said Witness, I knew I was right, since I had an LED and DA in the 'yard. He had no idea I had been sandbagging the Breakthrough, which I correctly assumed.
It's not a particularly desirable play, nor is assuming an unknown opponent, (which he was) is an idiot (though when you know they are......) usually correct. Winning now is always the best play with this deck if available though.
Yes, that's why I mentioned twice that that kind of play relies on an oversight on your opponent's side, which is not something you should assume will be the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Actually, to explain my situation once again (and more thoroughly) to rid of the confusion:
I had a Narcomoeba in play along with 2 Zombies. I actually had four bridges in my Graveyard. I returned Ichorid during my Upkeep, and dredged six with Troll. Seeing my attacks weren't lethal and I wanted a quick kill, I Dread Returned targetting Witness, and he was thinking about countering but didn't because he saw the FKZ in my yard and I wasn't targetting it. This nailed me 8 Zombies, and cost me 1. Story now: 9 Zombies and an Eternal Witness. I returned Unmask, pitching Golgari Thug, and taking a Force of Will (using the FoW would mean his hand would be empty, which would nail me two cards so he opted to just lose one, which of course, is irrelevant). I Dread Returned, sacrificing Witness and two zombies, nailing me four zombie tokens (11 tokens) and returning FKZ to swing. Two zombies were blocked I believe. So lethal swing.
All of this requires no mana. Note that I didn't have any therapies (yes, dredge four bridges and hit no therapies) because that would've been a lot easier.
Obviously, with only one Dread Return, you cannot win that same turn.
Conclusion: This is rare, highly far fetched play that almost never happens, since it's rare and far fetched. It's still awesome as f*ck though.
Almost as cool as being at 5 live, staring down a Tombstalker and 6/7 Goyf with two zombie tokens. Returning Ichorid, Dread Returning for Stinkweed motherf*cking Imp, killing the Tombstalker with Deathtouch and swing for lethal the next turn.
Or hardcast Thug to sac it to Therapy, put Moeba on top of your library and Dredging it two seconds later to put it into play. Or tapping a land to play Revelation, sac the land, Dread Return Eternal Witness to get a land back to Flashback Ray fo Revelation number 2, knocking out two Propaghanda's and swing :)
God I love this deck.
This is a good example of the optimization of the card use of this deck, which demonstrates that each card has a purpose beyond of having dredge or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayk0l
I can add DR a big GT to get through an annoying pernicious deed and my bridges extirpated!! Of course it was hard...
Another thing to add, when you have Dakmor Salvage in your grave, your opponent cannot respond to you dredging it with Crypt. He would have to preemtively Crypt in your upkeep, because Dredge is a replacement effect, not a triggered ability.
Except by my math you die to a 6/7 goyf...How'ed you pull it off? Did they forget to attack with the goyf?Quote:
Almost as cool as being at 5 live, staring down a Tombstalker and 6/7 Goyf with two zombie tokens. Returning Ichorid, Dread Returning for Stinkweed motherf*cking Imp, killing the Tombstalker with Deathtouch and swing for lethal the next turn.
Pce,
--DC
I DR Stinkweed, losing Ichorid and two Zombie tokens, but the sacrifice gave me three or four new zombie tokens. He swings with both Goyf and Tombstalker, I block Tombstalker with Imp and Goyf with a Zombie token.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Next Turn I return Ichorids, swing with the zombies and Ichorids. In a different scenario he doesn't attack with Tombstalker because he dies to Stinkweed Imp. In which case I overwhelm him within two turns (because Snuff Out doesn't do anything).
Damn, I'm retarded...This is why I shouldn't do math.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayk0l
Pce,
--DC
Parcher: I know you played Ichorid this weekend at TMLO4... How did things work out?
Badly. Losing to MUC is about as bad as things can go for Ichorid. So....yeah.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruenor
At least Nick (MUC player) was about as nice as one can be without laughing about how poorly his worst possible match-up went for me. It was an enjoyable beating.
yeah, Nick (Kadaj here in the source) is a nice guy to play against.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
i was just wondering...is it basically standard to not play akroma/hellkite overlord/beefy guy anymore? i don't really see the deck being consistant enough with only 2 dredge returns and a FKZ and cephalid sage/witness
also, unmask is very nice vintage tech but since we almost always win game 1, it seems like its unnecessary and left as a board card at best
Beefy guys are rarely used anymore as we've turned to a more controlling aspect with the list. Unmask isn't "vintage tech". It's for against a more controlling metagame. 6x Discard spells help get through hate. Also, most lists now run 3x Dread Returns since we now play Eternal Witness. Some people still do and it's not entirely wrong, it's simply not optimal.
Some people do choose to leave Unmask in their sideboard. It all depends on your metagame. If you see a lot of FoW's and other counters in your metagame, it's probably wise to maindeck it. If not, feel free to leave it in your board.
Pce,
--DC
Speaking of Fat Men, which Fat Man is best, if any? Red Akroma? Simic Sky Swallower? Angel of Vindicate? Tree-man of Almost Vindicate Twice? I've been leaning towards SSS, but I wanted to know what you guys were thinking.
i think these are the fatties to be put into consideration, obviously some being more viable than others maindeck:Quote:
Originally Posted by Concallesco
red akroma
white akroma
hellkite overlord
simic sky swallower
angel of despair
woodfall primus
as far as the hasters go, i like hellkite over white akroma because it's very likely that your opponent will do 4 damage to themselves, which puts them on a one-turn clock after you DR hellkite.
for the removal creatures, i prefer primus over angel because he can potentially net you 8 tokens while getting rid of some annoying permanents.
i haven't really tested around with the protection creatures yet, but i think it's a toss up. even though red akroma can deal with what i think is the best removal spell in the format (swords to plowshares) and deal with bounce, i would still pick simic. simic is harder to deal with because your opponent HAS to have a creature that flies and is bigger.
right now, i'm trying out this build
CREATURES
4x Golgari Grave Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
2x Golgari Thug
4x Narcomeoba
4x Ichorid
4x Putrid Imp
1x Hellkite Overlord
1x Cephalid Sage
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
1x Woodfall Primus
SPELLS
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Dread Return
4x Bridge from Below
4x Breakthrough
3x Deep Analysis
MANA SOURCES
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
At first i thought that they were necesary as 3rd win condition or some kind of protection. Afterwards i realized that none is necesary at least in main deck. The only one i consider in SB is ancestor's chosen for goblins and fanatic sligh / burn match ups were our bridges are easily removed. Ancestor's give us at least 10-15 lifes and a 4/4 first strike which is pretty enough for the ichorid beatdown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Concallesco
QFT. Seriously. This is good. Also, Ad Nauseam lists are becoming capable of goldfishing us, and this gives you a good chance of getting out of Tendrils range.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Pce,
--DC
Nauseam decks play IGG and without graveyard hate, there's nothing you can do to not let them still kill you with a huge Tendrils. Even without IGG, Nauseam will be able to contribute to make the number of Tendrils on the stack above 15 easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Onto the question: how many times can you bring Ancestor's Chosen back to gain 15+ life but can't bring FZK or whatever for lethal damage?
when you dredge and hit no bridges, lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
Against nauseam decks i would not side ancestor's for the life winning, this is a bad matchup and we have to beat them as soon as possible. Probably i would reserve ancestor's for decks that can easily remove your bridges, ie goblins, sligh (spark elemental and krldon marauders are awful) or sakura decks (in a minor fashion).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
When your bridges are removed your only way to win is with ichorid beat down. With ancestor's in play you will find enough time to get the victory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
I agree, Chosen is the only 'fatty' I've ever boarded.
It's not necessary anymore though. Firestorm rapes aggro more than Chosen ever will, that, and Firestorm gets online earlier and doesn't require a Dread Return (which can be hard to pull off on time without Bridges and burns flying around).
Firestorm has been solid for me. It comes in against Blue Control because the discard cannot be countered (and you can always discard at least two cards because there are always two targets), and it comes in against aggro. I play it instead of Leyline, which seems pretty useless (especially in today's Ichorid-less meta). I beat two Goyf Sligh decks with Firestorm in the Dutch Legacy Championships; I didn't need nor want Leyline even once during the entire tournament.
I think i agree, but against aggro ie white winnie, goblins and fellows is really needed?? Who receives the damage from firestorm? creature or player?? If creatures, the bridges will be removed so how do you use firestorm. Indeed i'd like to know because y really like that card. Here i list my SB for comparisson:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayk0l
3 Unmask
4 Pithing needle
4 Chain of vapor
1 Ancestor`s chosen
3 Wax // Wane
In the past, you used Contagion to kill Yixlid Jailers (which also removes Bridges), now you can use Firestorm, because it kills Jailer too, and seems to be good against Aggro (you are playing more the control part then I think...)
Yeah, you remove Bridges, but than you can use Ichorid-Beatdown.
...also Firestorm can also deal damage to players (or kill them)...
YawG
Indeed i never use contagion, darkblast or creepling fatige to kill yixlid, chain of vapor is pretty enough for him. Moreover, yixlid is nasty but not terrible for us, it allows you to draw for sb cards while you play small creatures from your hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill
I understand that this is a matter of game modulation when using firestorm or other kill cards.
When i play agains MUC or fellows (landstill) i simply side unmask, CoV and needle, maybe i should reserve unmask for combo and side in firestorm to keep my discard outlet against control. If i do this my side should chance, what do you think -3 Wax // Wane +3 Firestorm??
For prision effect i will depend on CoV (great card) and that's it.
I have an idea for an unconventional sideboard... Your thoughts on it please:
4 Firestorm
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancestor's Chosen
4 Stifle
Why Stifle? It helps against combo matchups (they dont expect it), but also everywhere a Needle helps, the Stifle helps. But this is still an idea, ill come around to testing. But maybe there are some insightful opinions about it.
For reference, I am using Mayk0l's main deck.
Mayk0l writes that you don't need Anestors anymore, when you play Firestorm, so why don't you exchange the (not-needed) reanimation-target, for some reanimater with utility (Sundering Titan or Empyrial Archangel for example)
YawG
Yeah sure, the Ancestor's is maybe too much... But it is the Stifle I want to discuss... It is an unconventional thing, but maybe people already tested it and found it useless.
...don't know about Stifle
I think Needle is better for the reason you can stop cards like Crypt, Relic or Deed, more than once...
...it's right that Stifle is better against combo than Needle, but against combo you have Therapys and Unmask nowadays, and Ichorid is an fast deck, too.
That means, I think Stifle is not needed, I rather use cards to stop gravehate, then play more cards that halp against combo, cuz we are combo, too somehow...
YawG
Stifle blows. It's a reactive card and will not be handy in any given situation ever. This list has proactive cards that do proactive things. This deck isn't about waiting around until they combo off. I don't think it's good against enough stuff to waste 4x slots in your sideboard. It may work once, but they will chant game 3. I think it's better to stick with Unmask and Firestorm (good against Ad Nauseam? They Ad Nauseam, you burn them for x after they are done ad nauseaming and you have cards in hand?).
I hate stifle in most lists. The only thing I think it's good for it Stiflenought and thrash lists.
Pce,
--DC
Stifle is not useful here my friend. This card can't never replace needle. Although it is right that where needle helps stifle does, needle can be play once in your hand. If you are afraid of tormod (for example) you just play it naming tormod even when the opponent hasn't played it yet. Also, pithing needle stops mogg fanatic and stifle doesn't. If you "stifle" a fanatic you will not receive the 1 damage from it but your bridges will be removed anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by smoky squirrel
For combo if think that unmask + therapy are good and they also help us in the control matchup.
i really like the idea of Sundering Titan. theres a lot of thresh/dreadstill/rock decks around here so i'll try it at my next event and i'll bb with the resultsQuote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill
also, has anyone toyed with the idea of using Sower of Temptation or Guilded Drake for dealing with dreadstill? i just searched for a while for a bunch of neat tricks we can pull. i also came across Gravespawn Sovereign and Noxious Ghoul as a long-shot possibility
Firestorm doesn't work out in this deck since the chances of casting it are too small. You only have about 8 sources of red mana unless your dropping coliseums like an idiot. Against aggro you just resolve your broken spells and win. Needle crypt or fanatic and stop losing.Quote:
Originally Posted by akira073
Sundering Titan is pointless. Wouldn't you rather win the game? If dread return resolves you should pretty much win right there. dredging the rest of the deck with sage or going for the kill with fkz is all you need.
Passive cards make this deck bad. Unmask worked out because it isn't Force of Will. I don't think people get that.
care to elaborate? you're saying unmask works because it's not nearly as busted as force??Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
i agree with most of what you're saying about what should happen game one. the passive cards you're referring too are possible choices for board. passive cards do make the deck bad...for game one. there are also times when you may not see FKZ hit your yard ever game one, so its kinda nice to have a reliable alternative.
you say firestorm wouldn't work because theres only 8 red sources.
so does this mean we should cut putrid imp since there are only 8 black sources?
unless your concern is too many 1drops that call for mana other than blue. but then we can naturally assume the possibility of swapping discard outlets for another discard outlets.
needle solves a lot of our problems, but for the other cards it really depends on your meta. not every location will have everyone playing the best top8 decks in the format. there are decks that run meddling mage or gaddock teeg where we would find firestorm useful. a perfect example of my meta is the genesis/spore frog lockout. it rather annoying having to auto-scoop to this so again, firestorm would be a great choice
look, i get at what you're trying to say, but we're all trying to be constructive here. i really wish i could see FKZ in play every game and have needle solve every problem, but unfortunately it just doesn't always happen. instead of shooting down every suggestion people have made for the last 4 pages, how about posting an updated list with board? it would be much appreciated :)
I think he's saying Unmask works because it's proactive and not reactive. How good is Force to help you resolve Breakthrough+LED ?
Some interesting things have come up.
First, addressing Stifle
I completely agree with Dark_Cynic87. Stifle is a card we shouldn't play for the same reason I tried and discarded Orim's Chant. Although I think Stifle has its advantages (since it can be cast off of all the lands), it's still not as effective as you'd want it to be. You're right, it hits the same targets Pithing Needle does, but you're forced to have an open mana "at all times". You drop Pithing Needle naming Tormod's Crypt or Mogg Fanatic (and Stifle doesn't stop him as mentioned some posts above this one) and you're done, no more worrying untill they remove Needle. Stifle doesn't work that way. Not only because it works only once, but it's reactive. This reactive aspect of Stifle makes it worse in the combo matchup because on one hand you want to go LED/Breakthrough and go nuts, on the other hand, you want one blue mana to cast the Stifle in your hand. Also note, it's a one trick pony; Orim's Chant will stop you Stifling any combo player who's seen you pull it off. That's why I preferred Chant; you could at least respond to their Chant with one of your own, buying you a turn. Still, it's not good enough because it's reactive and takes the wind out of your own sails.
On Sundering Titan
I still don't get it, why would you run it? Sure, it blows up the duallands Thresh and TA are packing, but those are Matchups we shouldn't be worrying about. All these decks are boarding Tormod's Crypt. Other than that, you beat them. Why would you ever want to destroy their manabase when they need 0 mana to screw you over? Focus on the more important things; if you can stop Tormod's Crypt, you will win the matchup against any Threshish deck. Once more: sure, you can pack things that are 'effective against a lot of decks' but newsflash: Ichorid is effective against most decks out there. If you can make Games 2 and/or 3 look like Game 1 (by nullifying their hate), you'll win.
The same is true for Sower of Temptation and Gilded Drake. Dreadstill is an OK matchup if you find a way to deal with the Crypts. By siding in Sowers and Gilded Drakes you're giving them more targets for their Counters (for Dread Return), Stifles and Trickbinds and in some builds, Swords to Plowshares. The Dreadnought is not really a problem. And if you really want something against it, I'd suggest Ancient Grudge (remember; Dreadstill will always side out their Counterbalances against you, giving you a better chance of Therapying the rest of their counters away), but I've never deemed this necessary. I've always won the damage race when they didn't have counterbackup for their Nought; they still have to drop it and swing twice. I don't really see Dreadstill as a bad MU. Tutorable Crypts can get nasty, but if you can't stop those, Sower isn't going to help you either. If you want answers to Dreadnought, you're going to be dredging a lot anyway, if you're dredging a lot, you should be winning, not answering Noughts.
On Firestorm and the manabase;
I understand where the comment comes from but that problem, at least to me has been rare. The risk of not being able to cast your Firestorm doesn't weigh up to the advantage of when you can. Firestorm has won me too many games to be discarded that easily.
On how to use it; obviously, you're trying to reduce the damage as much as you can in terms of removing Bridges. You'll have to assess every individual situation and weigh the pro's and cons of killing their creatures. But when you're facing down Mogg Fanatic, or Grim Lavamancer or other typical GoyfSligh utility, you might as well play the Firestorm and sacrifice the bridges, because you're losing them anyway.
On burning Nauseam players: I side them in, but it's a long shot. I've only managed to do it once myself. The problem is, you're usually going to need at least three targets because a Nauseam player will usually stop at three tops. Basically this means you need a Red Mana, three cards in hand and a target on the table, and that's a lot. As Stifle and Orim's Chant, Firestorm against combo has the same reactive role, and isn't that effective. The reason I side them in is because, at least with my sideboard, next to the fourth Unmask we don't have that much to side in and the MU is not that good. You could for example remove the Eternal Witness and an Ichorid to add 2 Firestorms. The effect will be minimal, but apart from the slim chance of burning out a careless TES player, you'll have a better chance at going crazy turn two with DAs, BTs, etc.
Combo has become a hard fight since they printed Ad Nauseam. I usually just hope to dodge the TES-like decks in tournaments. It's a frustrating MU, you Therapy their whole hand, they will topdeck Nauseam. You take their tutors, they'll topdeck a new one. I guess I'm an 'unlucky guy' when playing against combo, but I'm not too optimistic about it anymore. I used to be, when there was no Ad Nauseam but now, I don't know. The MU doesn't feel 'fair' anymore.
On Unmask
It's frigging gold. Stop gold-fishing the deck and take it to an actual tournament, then play it. It's solid.
Thank you so much for your report!
When you say: "But when you're facing down Mogg Fanatic, or Grim Lavamancer or other typical GoyfSligh utility, you might as well play the Firestorm and sacrifice the bridges, because you're losing them anyway."
You are completely right, we have to find the equilibrium!
I am still using the normal board of:
4 firestorm
4 pithing needle
4 chain of vapor
1 unmask(3 maindecked)
2 ray of revelation
Still seems really good to me. Only change I could see is -2 ray +2 Wispmare.
Why should Wispmare be better than Ray of Revelation?
YawG
Wispmare has the offhand chance of creating Zombie tokens with Bridge from Below.
Unmask is also good because it can get rid of any hate that you want while requiring you to pitch a BLACK card, not a blue card. Extirpate is a really risky card to use against Ichorid, and once you play Unmask, it's a much weaker card. Not only can you get rid of Extirpate game 3, but you can also force your opponent to possibly pick the wrong card or a subpar card game 2 as well.
The problem with running "cute" trick cards maindeck or even sideboard is that you have to run less cards like Unmask, Golgari Thug, or other good sideboard cards to have the space for it all and I don't feel that it pans out in the end. I used to run Gamble for a long time until I started losing because I didn't have Unmask to back up my hate or be the hate. Most decks in this format can't beat you unless they hit you with Extirpate correctly and I will take all of the free wins I can get.