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Before reading your comments i didn't like stack so much...i wondered the purpose of the card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noman Peopled
Trini + stack sounds good. The problem to me is that if you cast too fast stack probably you'll kill your own permanents plus your opponent's. I don't get if it's really good or it's really dependent on your opening hand and topdecks. I think that to make your "time walk" combo you must run a set of both trini and smoke...right??
It does depend on your opening hand. 3sphere is the best thing to pair with an early Stack, but you can substitute Chalice and/or Prison in a lot of situations. Just Smokestack (and other 4CC spells) isn't optimal. You also need three mana or more when you first enter the upkeep with a counter in place (most of your deck is three mana or less).Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
It does not depend much on topdecks except that sometimes lady luck will just screw you over as always happens.
The only thing really needed to suffer less from Smokes than an opponent is to maintain three mana - and topdeck 3CC permanents and lands (of my current build, only 12 spells are 4CC, and 4 of those are sorceries - barely any other deck even plays that many permanents). And try for more so you can use those to sacrifice (by playing a land as well as a sacrificial permanent for the next upkeep).
You will be sacrificing a lot of stuff, possibly more than your opponent will, but it will hurt your opponent more because they need lands more than you need lock pieces - and their creatures tend to be better in multiples than some of your lock pieces would be, especially since Smokestack itself makes multiple Ghostly Prisons redundant. Once your opponent is below three mana, 3sphere/Stack obsoletes Chalice and other 3spheres.
Also, you have Crucible and Flagstones for additional sacrifices. Even Loam can't begin to keep up with Crucible.
To be sure, this plan can and on occasion will backfire.
Sometimes you'll be at three mana and proceed to draw nothing but 4CC spells and sometimes your opponent will be able to out-permanent you in the short run via ETW, Lackey/Siege-Gang, Bridge tokens, or a bunch of Enchantress's enchantments.
It's important to know when it's risky to play Smokestack, when it's better to try for an additional mana and/or lock piece first, and when to go for it.
I did say Smokes alone isn't optimal (w/o 3sphere/Chalice/Prison/Chalice). Assuming your first one or two lock pieces got countered or otherwise dealt with (or you mulled down to Smoke/double Tomb :D ), Smokestack can still do a lot of good. You then don't have the luxury of 3sphere or other supporting permanent so it's not as good, and it's slow, as you said. But it's still a threat and the sooner it's on the board the better. Also, your opponent is already down some disruption.
Besides, not being optimal on its own is what you can say about all other lock pieces. Too much disruption can easily out-tempo Stax long enough to get in with sufficiently lethal beats .
I would never cut Smokestack out of the deck: it's a great card, but I did not like running 4 because unlike Chalice / Trinisphere, Smokestack hurts you just as much as your opponent, I found going down to 3 was just fine.
Yea, I would never cut Smokestack either, but that's part of why I don't want 4. It is harder to break the symmetry of Smokestack than Trinisphere, for example Trini can never hurt you, neither can Chalice, but Smokestack you have to prepare for.
And while Stax does run a ton of permanents, its actually not always that obvious. For one, Stax plays fewer lands out on the field than most decks because it will either hold lands or pitch them. For another, a lot of times the permanents you put out are quite valuable and you don't want to sac them any more than your opponent wants to sac his.
The ONLY times Smokestack is NOT good are when 1) you need an immediate answer and 2) when your opponent has significantly more permanents than you do. Otherwise, it's a bomb, and multiples are good, so I think running 4 is reasonable. If you have 4 mana you can play any spell in most builds of the deck, and because you run almost all permanents (plus synergistic cards like Flagstones and Crucible), Smokestack is almost always one-sided, and it's also one of the best ways to force a G1 concession.
But after that you side it out??Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
No, but it is less likely for opponents to concede in games 2 and 3.
I rarely sideout Smokestack unless I'm up against something like Belcher. If I'm up against Goblins or Merfolk, sometimes I'll side out just one because it's something you don't want to see very often until you set up some sort of soft lock.
I was actually thinking of testing with 4 Smokestack again now that we have Elspeth, has anybody tried that out yet?
Even running Elspeths main I like 3 stax.
Smokestack is a gamebreaker. Apparently it's a lost art, but if you're a bit good at math, you can ramp it up hard to clear the board if you need to. Maintaining Smokestack@2 is pretty awesome too. That's usually a win. Smokestack isn't as good against swarms though. Merfolk, Goblins, they have plenty of stuff to sac and keep on coming.
Yeah being able to maintain smokestack @2 = GG's if you have the proper pieces out i.e. chalice @1 or a 3sphere. Most decks don't run as many permanents as ourselves so it's easy to set up a lock via crucible, flagstones, or just using armageddon to blow your opponent out of the game since they'll probably have something like 2 permanents out post geddon.
I run 3 smokestack currently but would like a 4th; they are a bitch to find though luckily I got the 3 I have and some other stax pieces for a foil entomb I got for $10. But elspeth supports smokestack quite well and it's really good when you have elspeth and crucible out with a smokestack out cause that is generally GG's.
You side out smokestack when you face something with a lot of permanents like gobbo's or elves. It just matchup dependent.
Just out of interest, what other decks can out-permanent us?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
I'm thinking of Elves, Enchantress, Goblins ... the mirror, obviously. 43land.
Although Smokestack is far from bad even here if you can get additional hate up. (I got raped a few times by Boggart Shenanigans though, not to mention that rogue pre-Entomb Hulk deck.)
Makes me want to add World Queller even more, as you can specifically target lands. Anybody do some testing with that guy? Haven't had much time recently.
I got mine no problem; small city with next to no Legacy players, the shopkeeper was happy to sell them pretty cheaply (4€ a pop iirc) ;)Quote:
I run 3 smokestack currently but would like a 4th; they are a bitch to find though luckily I got the 3 I have and some other stax pieces for a foil entomb I got for $10.
Haven't gotten to test him, but I honestly don't think he's that great. Sure, he's a recurring Armageddon, but he's not an ideal creature-sweeper because he kills himself in the process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noman Peopled
That, and there's a much sexier creature in the 3WW slot named Baneslayer Angel...
Smokestack is such a vital component for an early win in many matchups. I ran 4 Smokestacks at the last Meandeck open and was incredably happy with them every time I drew it.
Against Goblins, despite their high permanent count, they are usually unable to race you in permanents due to various lock pieces which prevent them from matching you in permanent drops per turn; even if they have an equal number of permanents per deck. At said tourney, my opponent had significant board advantage and after many turns of grinding away at him with Smokestack@2/Trokair+Crucible I was able to eventually able to bring him down to zero permanents on board.
The moral of the story: If you aren't seeing instant gratification with smokestack against permanent heavy decks it does not mean they are winning, you just have to be patient.
I agree with this unless Goblins / Merfolk goes turn 1 AEther VialQuote:
Originally Posted by SpencerForHire
Vial IMO is one of Stax's most troublesome cards
On that subject, this is why things like Damping Matrix, Suppression Field and other toys are useful.Quote:
Vial IMO is one of Stax's most troublesome cards
Even then however, I find it very easy to just eat the Vial along with whatever else from the Smokestack. In my own experience, although Vial can be an issue; it only ever helps slightly and takes too long to ramp before I've taken a firm grip on the game.
Vial is still incredibly troublesome because it directly circumvents Chalice and Trinisphere and Armageddon.
In my opinion though the single most annoying card for Stax is Trygon Predator.
Could you post your list please?Quote:
Originally Posted by SpencerForHire
My list is like one land choice and one artifact different from the SCG White Stax list. I don't claim to be incredibly original with my list, nor do I want to bog down this thread with yet another deck list.
As far as Vial goes, I have found that I really am not worried about either Merfolk nor Goblins as I generally am not losing a lot of games to either deck. If it is suppose to be a bad matchup please enlighten me because 4x Ghostly Prison / 3x Magus of the Tabernacle really seals the deal. Post board Rule of Law makes the more aggressive of the two decks even easier.
Why would you board in Rule of Law vs Goblins?
Merfolk can be hard sometimes if you don't draw enough of the correct lock pieces and they counter those. You could have the mana all locked up but fail to land enough creature control to stop from being overrun.
I apologize, I meant Sphere of Law. I got the two cards mixed up.Quote:
Originally Posted by FieryBalrog
You really can't be overrun if you have Ghostly Prison/Tabernacle out. Just put out these pieces and resolve an Armageddon, you are pretty much solid at that point. Before someone says how do you resolve Geddon against Merfolk, my response would be: stick them under a chalice.Quote:
Originally Posted by FieryBalrog
I'm assuming Rule of Law in the sideboard isn't directed towards goblins, but more towards burn, but it just so happens to be pretty good against Goblins too?
Sphere of Law, and yes it is for Burn but makes an excellent addition against Goblins.
I've seen a few people talk about drawing cards in stax (i.e. thirst of knowledge). I think if you really want to include 'draw' run bottled cloister. It protects you from discard, it's a draw every turn and it's 4cc so plays nicely with 3sphere.
EDIT: Though I don't recommend running any draw in stax (beyond horizon canopy if you want it).
On another note, i've found that baneslayers are just awesome in this deck. They have won me many a game, most of which i would have lost without them, having only a semi-lock. Often dropping a chalice at 1 then an early baneslayer is GG. (I currently run 3 MD).
I have 4 Runed Halo in the board, but am considering swapping out my maindeck prison's for them. In quite a few matchups I find myself siding out prisons and replacing it with Runed halo. Even naming Goyf has been a very good play.
Yea, Baneslayer gives the deck a "Plan B" which is less reliant on a overly dominant board position, letting you sometimes mise wins from inferior board positions.
Yeah bottled cloister seems like the best card draw stax has apart from horizon canopy. And sphere of law is against burn; not that we can't win that MU with just chalices on 1-3 cmc but the 3cmc cards burn runs hurt us since we can't chalice at 3 without hurting ourselves. Sphere of law is our best card against burn since warmth is cmc 2 which we usually put chalice at because we need it. And COP: Red is the same case as warmth.
Baneslayer is amazing; no reason to run exalted angel over baneslayer unless you don't own them of course and don't want to dish out $50 for 1.
what do you think of those two list, not sure the one i ll play. (main thing is i dont wanna spend 4x$ on BA for smth that worth MAX half of it. it s only about principle not money wise.
anyway :
//MD
[x4] Chalice Of The Void
[x4] Crucible Of Worlds
[x4] Mox Diamond
[x4] Smokestack
[x3] Trinisphere
[x2] Baneslayer Angel
[x3] Magus Of The Tabernacle
[x4] Ghostly Prison
[x3] Oblivion Ring
[x3] Armageddon
[x1] Ravages of War
[x4] Plains
[x4] Ancient Tomb
[x4] City Of Traitors
[x4] Wasteland
[x1] Horizon Canopy
[x3] Flagstones Of Trokair
[x4] Mishra's Factory
[x1] Kor Haven
//SB
[x3] Tormod's Crypt
[x1] Trinisphere
[x2] Sphere Of Law
[x3] Suppression Field
[x2] Circle of protection Red
[x3] Choke
[x1] Savannah
Or
//MD
[x4] Chalice Of The Void
[x4] Crucible Of Worlds
[x4] Mox Diamond
[x4] Smokestack
[x3] Trinisphere
[x2] KoTR
[x3] Magus Of The Tabernacle
[x4] Ghostly Prison
[x3] Oblivion Ring
[x3] Armageddon
[x1] Ravages of War
[x5] Plains
[x4] Ancient Tomb
[x4] City Of Traitors
[x4] Wasteland
[x1] Horizon Canopy
[x3] Flagstones Of Trokair
[x2] Mishra's Factory
[x1] Kor Haven
[x1] Savannah
[x1] Nomad Stadium
//SB
[x2] Tormod's Crypt
[x1] Trinisphere
[x2] Sphere Of Law
[x3] Suppression Field
[x3] Krosan Grip
[x3] Choke
[x1] The Tabernacle At Pendrell Valle
60 and 61 (dunno what to cut :s)
also i d really want to add 2 elspeth SB but then again dunno what to remove
Capitalization and punctuation are required on this site. Please use them. Also, when posting full decklists, we prefer to see more discussion about specific card choices, otherwise it's basically spam. -zilla
Bottled Cloister is a somewhat OK option, but if I ran it it would pull me towards Ensnaring Bridge, and I feel that White Stax has better options. Otherwise Bottled Cloister is a really slow permanent that would have to replace a more critical lock piece.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nizmox
Bottled Cloister is aweful, once it get destroyed u simply lose your full hand and with all the artifact hate existing i think it ain't worth the risk.Quote:
Originally Posted by FieryBalrog
That actually isn't a really big deal in Stax because by the time you play Bottled Cloister you should have already played out much of your hand and be playing out your hand each turn anyway. Whats left in your hand will mostly be extra lands and redundant pieces you don't have mana to play.Quote:
Originally Posted by ryO!
Then i d prefer canopy + KoTR as late lock/help as it can :Quote:
Originally Posted by FieryBalrog
*fetch land help/lock (tabernacle, Kor, stadium, waste)
*block
*kill
i d also want to know what u d remove to give BoC a slot.
I wouldn't really in White Stax, see above. I was just saying that the drawback isn't really that bad and on top of that they most likely have better targets to hit. Its really more just the fact that you would have to cut lock pieces for it and its slow and doesn't do much else. It might deserve a 1 of or 2 of slot, maybe. Canopy is great because its a land slot, it supports Choke and works with a piece you already want to play when the time is right, aka Crucible.Quote:
Originally Posted by ryO!
I do run it in any blue and black Stax decks I build, because the options for creature control there all pale beside ensnaring bridge + cloister.
propaganda?Quote:
Originally Posted by FieryBalrog
I don't know about your metagames, but Bottled Cloister is awful anywhere where people have enough reason to run Serenity or even Hurkyl's and company out of the board.
More common problems for the Cloister are Deed and EE. They sweep your board then rape your hand via the inevitably sideboarded Grip (or maindecked Pridemage). In the case of Deed, if they can muster seven mana over two turns, you have lost your board position and your hand to one card.
There are situations in which it's a good thing to have cards in your hand.
Against a Deed/EE on the board, I'll try to force them to tap out and snatch it with O-Ring; barring that, forcing them to break it and still have enough stuff in hand to refuel is the only viable course (unless I stuck a Needle in play first or got stack down fast enough). Cloister helps if it remains active, and kills you if it doesn't.
Last but not least, we all know how inconsistent Stax can be. A hand can give you four mana and three lock pieces (which don't always work well together in the current matchup) and be keepable; but replace one of them with Cloister and you have a crapshoot - especially against decks that go Seize or FoW/Daze the first turn, the most dangerous piece may not resolve, the second one may or may not be as crippling as one would like, and Bottled Cloister is much less of a threat when they've gotten 2-3 turns with freely usable mana out, especially with Pridemage being so popular.
Plus, Cloister is sooo slow. If it draws you tow lock pieces and another land over the course of three turns, you are up one lock piece, total. Meanwhile, you robbed yourself of the chance to land another lock piece at least a turn earlier, which may or may not have made Cloister surplus to requirements. I'd much rather have another disruptive ca piece like Ravages (if I wanted to afford them).
With Stax's mana base, there's only so many non-lock slots you can put in, especially since our lock pieces' efficiency varies wildly from matchup to matchup.
This, I think, is the biggest difficulty in finding a decent draw engine for Stax. It compomises our game plan much more than lategame inclusions do in other decks because of our limited amount of actual business spells.
I kind of like Canopy/KotR/Crucible. Because you're playing the latter two anyway (assuming you have Tabernacle and want to go green) and Canopy makes mana.
EE =4, really I'm not really sure that happens too often since you have Armageddon+Wasteland/Crucible
Deed is a problem but I don't think it is so widely played anymore. The trick with deed is that they lose any board position they had as well, although they do get to sandbag and keep their hand.
The only thing I am afraid of is bottled cloister getting nuked when I have a grip full of cards. This scenario should not be so common since as a stax deck we should drop all our disruption/lockpieces first without worrying about drawing cards until we run out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryO!
Propaganda is much worse without Armageddon and Magus. Like, pretty much worthless except against something like Dredge or maybe Goblins. Anything with Goyf just doesn't care.
I think this is a much more relevant reason why not to run Cloister (which I mentioned) than the Deed/Serenity problem (who runs EE for 4? you shouldn't let them get there anyway). Because you have tools to fight those, and on top of that, the card draw each turn is probably worth more than the few situations you face Deed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noman Peopled
Cloister is slow (playing it early is much riskier and you want lock pieces) and isn't a lock piece.
I have found the Zoo matchup to be difficult and put th edeck down for a while.
What has everyone found to be a good sideboard plan?
I've been thinking of boarding 2 additional Baneslayers...stupid $40 rares
Hey, I've found that the biggest weakness in Zoo is that they have weak recovery. Even though they can be more aggressive than goblins, they have very few draw engines outside of sylvan library, so Wrath of God does great against Zoo if you get them to overcommit.Quote:
Originally Posted by SMR0079
Also, baneslayer is expensive, but I've used many other Life gain creatures like Gerrard Capeshan. surprisingly, he works well. A little ghetto, but 50 cent card vs. $40 card is always nice.
If the zoo is emptying out his hand too much before you can drop some life gain, you might wanna play some ensnaring bridges or pulse of fields.
Finally, if push comes to shove and Zoo's outracing that, you might wanna throw in extra creature destruction such as day of judgement in addition to wraths.
This is a little much, but if Zoo is getting too big in your meta, it might be a good investment.
Unlike Goblins, Zoo just needs to slip a couple creatures in to get you into burn range. Granted we can chalice lock them, but Pridemage is such a beating if he resolves first.
Baneslayer x4 with a couple of Moats is what I'm currently thinking for games 2/3.
Trinisphere? Chalice stops Daze or Spell Pierce but not FoW.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpencerForHire
My question is: is Exalted still the second best option to Baneslayer? Emeria Angel got a little attention but the ass of 3 is a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual