Thanks Adan, I remember you guys talking about these lists a while back. Thanks for refreshing my memory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
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Thanks Adan, I remember you guys talking about these lists a while back. Thanks for refreshing my memory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
A day after GP, I have to say I'm pretty impressed by Sower of Temptation. As your last deck try to be the UGR version of DIF's UGW aggro thresh list, I would see Sower replacing his Mystic Enforcer and BTS replacing RWM.
Here's the list I'm currently testing:
// Lands
1 Forest
2 Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
2 Polluted Delta
1 Mountain
// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
3 Burning-Tree Shaman
4 Werebear
2 Sower of Temptation
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
4 Fire/Ice
// Sideboard
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Price of Progress
SB: 3 Slot for something against Landstill or Combo. I thought about Pyrostatic Pillar and Sulfuric Vortex, what you guys think about it? Or +1 PoP, +2 REB/BEB.
It's pretty aggressive and I feel like it could go somewhere. Need more testing.
PM
Nice list ! My only concern, not having tested it yet, is having only 17 lands (+4 Werebear) with 5 three-drops and 2 four-drops.
-1 Something (Werebear ?) + 1 land maybe ?
I don't know. In DIF's list I'm currently playing since two weeks, I'm fully ok with 17 and I have 7 3cc drops and 1 4cc + Top, which is more mana intense than anything else in the list mentionned a post before.
Ugh, if you run Sower of Temptation, you need a way to defent him consequently, i.e. via Counterbalance. Otherwise he's pretty crappy.
I'd say:
- Burning Tree Shaman
- Spell Snares
+ 4 Counterbalance
+ 3 Sensei's Divining Top
That would be massive profit I guess.
QFT. Sower is only good if you can keep it alive. Without CB I don't think you can reliably do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
I also don't understand why you want to port Clemens list to a Tempo Thresh shell? Don't get me wrong, his list is great and has proven itself many times, but it is fundamentally based on CB. If you take that card away you weaken the deck absurdly! This is a slower, more controlling build and CB is its main control element.
True Story!
i am thinking maybe we can reduce the fire/ice to 2 and play 2 trygons in the main (referring to goobafish's list) or remove the rushing river/wipeaway in favor of 2 trygons main. either way we need a good way to fight counterbalance main deck.
spell snares are great but they are not always available, since goyf is a beating and so is bob.
I know Ben Wienburg played a Vendilion Clique main over fire/ice #4 and loved it all day. It apparently got him some wins against decks with maindeck relics like merfolk and a weird goblins build. We were thinking about cutting the rushing river for a second, but I could easily see those becoming trygons in a meta infested with cb/top. Just don't get them sowered.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
Also, would it be worth it to post a gp report if I went 6-3 with byes? I guess I could post the trial report as well if people want.
Yep, sure! Go ahead.
PM
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire/Ice
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Island
1 Forest
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
What I've since gone to and have been tinkering around with.
I'd make fire//ice magma jet in that list. The tapping wont be nearly as useful without the tempo shell and scry is good with counterbalance.
Wienburg took my tempo deck and said he hated 4 fire ice and wanted to cut it so I told him the best 60th card is a threat that can fight past CB. Clique was the next best card with predator as the best card for a Counter top infested metagame. Or just play landstill not tempo. Wienburg got 11th I believe which is pretty impressive. From what I have seen it seems like tempo thresh was the best deck playing goose, and counter balance decks played better men (Mostly confidant and sower)Quote:
Originally Posted by MULocke
Also provided bob is mid/late game threat only with top out. In this matchup the biggest card is top, if you keep top off the board your life is 100X better because with a randoming bob on that curve if they are at 7 or less they are dead most likely.
After this T8 I would reccommend a new board because I didnt realize CT and shackles would be in the same deck and that they would be so previlant.
4 Annul (grip doesnt stop the top from topping 3+ times)
4 Submerge
2 trygon predators
3/4 reb
1/2 open
Does sower or shackles deserve a slot in the board for the mirror? In the mirror you dont need little increases you need breakers.
I'm going to play ugr-thresh tomorrow at tournament, but im still balancing between canadian thresh and counter/top version. Which would be better choice for unknown meta?
In my opinion(I've played both), I think the version without cb/top is more suited in the ugr play style. U will loose alot of tempo if you go for the CB/top route. Although CB can randomly win games, I still prefer to play without em(so with spell snare) and have a faster clock. I've been testing with 2-3 PoP SB and that seems to be working nice aswell.
Canadian is better for unknown. And CT is better for a UX metagame. If you play CT you should almost definately play the deck that got first or second in the recent GP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atog
Personaly I find counter top to be too skill/time intensive for a long torny it will wear you out and break you down or you will misplay with it costing you a few games in the torny and maby even the top8. Top is mentaly taxing and I dont see that as being good for a torny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atog
Canadian Threshold would be the better choice. Thats why it did really well at the GP, because you never know what to expect. The deck does great against almost anything with not too many bad matchups to worry about.
The ability to burn your opponent out is very underestimated by a lot of players, great game finisher.
In canadian thresh, won't those PoPs hurt you too much? Of course when they are leathal it won't matter anyway. Are you playing Caplan's list? And have you been problems with b2b/blood moon/magus of the moon? Those rebs/pyroblast should handle them but without single island that could be rough.Quote:
Originally Posted by rancOr_
What place did you finished? And what decks against you win and lost? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
The price of your progressQuote:
In canadian thresh, won't those PoPs hurt you too much? Of course when they are leathal it won't matter anyway. Are you playing Caplan's list? And have you been problems with b2b/blood moon/magus of the moon? Those rebs/pyroblast should handle them but without single island that could be rough.
2 - 6 life
The price of their progress
8 - 20 life
Its a fair trade in the worst circumstances, in good ones its a LOL FAIL.
I believe canadaian threshold had only 2 decks T8 at a higher percentage than they did and one was, not surprizing. WGB rock and Dragon stompy. Stompy is randomly amazing and randomly bad, that caught up to it in the T8, the WGB decks cant always beat counter top (which caught up to them, as a 2/3 is very good and so is sowering a stalker) and the tempo thresh deck with inevitably play against some one who draws 6 lands and a top.Quote:
What place did you finished? And what decks against you win and lost? :)
It takes a fair amount of luck and skill to T8, afterall if it was JUST skill and metagaming one or two people would win every major magic event in existance. However this isnt the case we it is one of many people that frequently win not just 1. Luck is a factor, and so is deck choice. In the end I feel that tempo thresh has a VERY good game against the CT decks that T8ed and the reason it lost is because the tempo player got stuck with bad hands.
When I play canadian thresh, my opponents usually fetchs for basic lands, which makes PoP not really good in this SB. I only use it on CB Top shell, where I have 3-4 basic lands and no wasteland, to be sure they don't mind going for non-basics, and then take 10 dmg from a PoP.
P-M
I can't figure out my deck for legacy, and since it's pretty popular here I kind of want to do so, so I have this deck a shot.
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Fire/Ice
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Footills
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Mountain
SB:
4 Pyroclasm
2 REB
2 BEB
4 Submerge
1 KGrip
2 Mind Harness
I didn't see a lot of combo before the tournament, but rather a bunch of random decks with creatures, thus the 4 clasms.
Round 1: Some guy with UBWG CB/top thresh pile.
Game 1: I get an early goose, a VClique, and quickly get him down with dudes and bolts to fill my yard for goose fodder.
Game 2: This game is VERY good, and quite long.
I play a turn 1 goose, and he plays top. We go back and forth playing lands, and he eventually plays counterbalance. I obviously have the 1 KGrip, and he bins the CB.
It eventually gets to the point where I have a goyf and 2 geese, he has a goyf, a top, and shackles. We both have few cards in hand, and I'm sandbagging submerges to get maximum value. I submerge a goyf to get in with my creatures, and he reads it, tanks for a while, and eventually forces it. I think of using my 2nd submerge, but I have a sick read that he will fetch end of turn to shuffle away his top 3. He does exactly that, I submerge his goyf in response, and he wide-eyes's me. "wow.. nice trick."
Yeah, I concur, since you just read the card a minute ago and tanked for a few minutes.
The next turn he plays a bob, and I swing in. I play a 2nd main goyf as he needs 2 more lands to get shackles online, holding a daze. He thinks, and eventually tops, and draws with it, and hardcasts FOW, leaving only a fetch open. I obviously daze it and he sighs as he has to crack his fetch and shuffle away top which was essentially keeping him in the game.
We go back an forth, trade goyfs, and eventually he has a shackles, my goyf, and I have 2 geese with no cards in hand. He dogs deed off the top which is basically the best card he can draw at that point. He taps his land, thinks, untaps it, and passes. I alert him of my upkeep, and he passes to my draw step. I obviously quickly draw my card to prevent takebacks, praying for a stifle the whole time. Obviously I do draw stifle, I move to attacks, and stifle his deed. He sighs again as he completely punted. He also makes a little shot about how lucky my topdeck is, which is ironic since he could have just mainphased the deed and I would have lost. I'm not braindead, I'm not going to walk into your on-board wrath of god.
Next turn I topdeck submerge and get him for exactsies.
Such justice.
Round 2: Jonathon with elves
He's totally terrible and plays the deck in every format, and my deck is basically insane against him with MD F/I, Bolt, and more in the board.
Game 1: I mull to 5 seeing no lands in my first 2 hands, and settle with some dorks, a waste, a trop, and a fire/ice. I obviously don't draw a red the entire game and he combos with 3 cards in hand and 2 dudes out.
Game 2: I mull to 6 and keep this:
Trop
Island
Goose
Pyroclasm
Fire/Ice
Goyf
Basically if I draw a red I can't lose.
Luckily for him, my deck coughs up no brainstorms, ponders, or red. He gets me to 1 on an attack, and I draw foothills the following turn.
No justice, etc.
Round 3: Justin with UWG Thresh
Game 1: He blinds with counterbalance 3 turns in a row, and I lose to goyfs.
Game 2: We go back and forth, I submerge some dudes away in response to fetches, which he basically walked into. The first one was fine as he didn't see it coming, but the 2nd fetch was for no reason. He obviously wins though as he has a lot of removal and control magic effects, and I don't draw any brainstorms which would've allowed me to make my flood not totally awful.
Justin was pretty lucky, which was frustrating, and I got totally fucked against elves. I'm pretty sure I was running the best card in the tournament (submerge) and everyone would walk into it constantly, but I got totally grifted.
The basics were pretty unnecessary, but it was nice to have them as I'm scared shitless of wastelands, as normally this runs no basics at all. I can't really make judgements about the deck, as it was only 3 rounds and I got totally screwed. Sower should probably be > mind harness, but whatever.
As you can tell by my games I never really had the good draws this deck should get. I never got a stifle/waste win against the thresh deck round 3, and I was always drawing my mana denial late with no brainstorms to shuffle them away.
If I were to play tomorrow I would play the exact 60, maybe cutting 1 f/i for a submerge.
I would play this board
2 REB
2 BEB
1 KGrip
2 Sower (or 3 if I made the MD change)
4 Submerge (3 if I make the MD change)
4 Pyroclasm (possibly a 2/2 split with firespout [better against decks with tribal lords])
You would have won if you had the basic land configuration, how many games did you win via basics, how many did you lose? Simply put basics suck after first turn unless your playing against a deck with blood moon.Quote:
Trop
Island
Goose
Pyroclasm
Fire/Ice
Goyf
Basically if I draw a red I can't lose.
My personal SB would be
2 ReB
2 Pyroblast
4 Submerge
3 Clasm
2 Krosan grip
2 Threads of disloyalty
My only main deck alterations from the standard 60 would be -1 RR -1 wipe away +1 vendillion clique and +1 other creature, options would include predator, sower, and vendillion clique.
EDIT: Or maby burning tree shaman needs to make a come back, yah hes smaller than goyf but considering that he basicaly cripples top and seriously hates on fetch lands he seems really good as he prevents digging for answers or at least makes you pay for it, it also helps the survival match, the goblins match (an ass of 4 is so big and vial +port) it also helps our abismal 43 lands matchup as they cant beat that card aside from like 4 cards in thier deck.
I cut basics, except the island. With the ammount of aggro loam in my meta, I feel it's necessary to have the island just as an insurance against wastelock, because if they waste lock I'm pretty sure I can't win, but if I can get an early goose and stifle/waste to buy myself time (if they have a mox diamond start it's pretty hard). So in that case, I still would have lost, but you're correct, my first hand that game had 2 basics, and if the forest was just a trop/fetch like it is now I probably would have won.
Question (Read: not just sarcastic comment): If you're wastelocked, but you still do have that one basic island, how are you better off? I understand you can play cantrips, but aren't you still basically screwed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jujuhawk
he could align his top deck w/ cantrip to play a tropical/fetch tropical and play a goyf at least... or fetch volcanic and lightning bolt etc..
but yes, wasteland lock crushes 99% of thresh decks
If I had to pick a basic to play it would be a moutain, because if you got wastelocked before they are in burn range you just lose. But if I was really scared I would go +2 needle in the board -> beat fail phase.Quote:
he could align his top deck w/ cantrip to play a tropical/fetch tropical and play a goyf at least... or fetch volcanic and lightning bolt etc..
but yes, wasteland lock crushes 99% of thresh decks
It may be correct to force/daze diamond if you can.Quote:
if they have a mox diamond start it's pretty hard
Outs:Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
2 Island, 1 Forest. Maybe 3 Pithing Needle somewhere in the 75 to play on Wasteland.
Just. Not. True.
It may be true for canadian Thresh, but canadian Thresh can generate a boardposition - or a speedadvantage - that will make Wastelands actually bad plays as the Loamplayer should focus on different things. Not to mention that Spell Snare can still do well in such situations and Stifle can buy nearly 1 Turn.
If I get to daze a diamond they deserve to lose anyway. Forcing it is awkward as I'd much rather force a real card like wish, or a creature. I think my gameplan is to get a creature, and just bolt/counter their creatures and hope they don't get their engine online fast enough to recover.Quote:
Originally Posted by undone
When you play TempoThresh, this is the right thing to do. At the same time, you utilize your Wastelands, Stifles and Spell Snares to generate speedadvantage and make Daze more powerful. Even if they can resolve a creature in such a situation, you can still bounce or tap it (via 4 Fire//Ice and the 2 bounce, in case of Crusher or Goyf sometimes even Bolt it) to force them into a defensive situation where they just can't efford to attack you anyway as long as the Vore is not 18/18.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jujuhawk
Postboard their creatures become even more irrelevant through the 4 Submerge you can bring in, as well as Engineered Explosives (which is useful against Chalice as well).
last week i ran a version of moon thresh at my local weekly legacy shin-dig and went 5-0.in a 20 person tourney i feel like part of why i won was the surprise factor of magus so i don't know if i will have continued success.
this is what my list looked like:
4x goose
4x goyf
4x magus of the moon
2x vendilion clique
1x sower
1x trygon preditor
4x ponder
4x brainstorm
4x force of will
4x daze
3x spellsnare
4x ligntning bolt
4x fire// ice
2x flooded strand
2x polluted delta
3x wooded foothills
3x volcanic island
3x tropical island
2x island
2x forest
sb:
3x pyroclasm
3x krosan grip
1x gaea's blessing (metagame choice, won me the last round against epic painter)
1x trygon predator
3x hydroblast
2x divert
2x mind harness
although i had alot of success with the deck (only lost one game all night)
i feel as though i may cut magus this week in favor of spellstutter sprite, as he is a house even if all he counters is one drops. also i think i may switch my numbers on daze and spell snare because without stifle or wasteland i feel that daze is not as strong as it could be.
if i do run the sprite do you think it would hurt to try and find room for 2-3 mutavaults in the deck?
thanx in advance -phthisisity
What were your matchups?
Pretty sure you should be playing 4 stifles over 4 creatures. Stifling their fetches allows magus to be more effective, and he gets less effective as people find out about him and fetch basics.
@ leander?
rd1: UB faeries, fairly aggro extended port
rd2: Combo Elves! playing white for geddon
rd3: nassif's counter top list from the GP
rd4: Eva Green
rd5: UBG epic painter
rd 3 was the only time i lost a game and it was to my teammate, the ny state champ
@ jujuhawk
i agree with you on the inclusion of stifle in to the mix, however i have had alot more success as of late by playing more men in my lists so i may try and find room elsewhere.
What are the collective thoughts on removing the rushing river and wipe away from canadian thresh in exchange for 2 guys that fly (Be it vendillion clique, sower, or trygon predator)
I've been playing +1 land +1 Vendilion Clique in those spots.
I must say the Vendilion Clique works out very nice. Its a solid beater with evasion that can put away a nasty card from ur oppo or cycle a card.
I feel like Sower is better in a CB/top shell as u can defend it then.
Trygon Predator is a nice include aswell,but in my testing a bit too slow so I prefer the Clique.
My current build has -1 RR for +1 clique I found clique to fit the decks style aside from the whole "3 CC sucks" thing. Is clique the best creature to run there? Wipe away still seems great in it at least to me, it allows for the counterbalance bounce to burn you out at EOT.
I really wish that we had a good out to shackles and such but its becoming more and more clear to me + 4 annul in the board is mandatory for the "nassif control" match and vs any deck where it has 8 or more targets it is awsome.
This allows us more first turn outs to top and counter balance as well as shackles and deed and EE. It seems grip is just worse than annul because its too late to do it (vs alot of cards) while annul is nuts.
I found RR better then wipe away.
Also shackless never bothered me since u can easily delay the number if islands.
And goose doesn't give a shit.
I've done this exactly (2 Trygon). And I've got to say I miss RR sometimes, but also sometimes Trygon can destroy whatever I wanted to bounce anyway so... it's still up in the air for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by undone
Nassif control has become somewhat popular in my area, I havent figured out how to play against it effectivly, my gut instinct is to force only tarmogoyfs if I have a goose on the board and snare only Counter balances as bob hurts them and can be bolted. It feels like the landstill matchup in that goose is the MVP and goyf is not something you want to try and win with (control magics suck)
The waste stifle plan seems mediocer here as they have 2 basics and almost always start with one in play if they are on the play, and they can have just the psudo nuts hand of 4-5 lands.
Whats every one elses view on this, it feels even, it just seems like we should be able to do better than even on this match.
I've played against it in tournament and also tested the MU.
Nimble Mongoose is the way to go. If you keep your own Goyfs in hand,they have quite alot of dead cards: Sower,shackles,stp,confi.Ur own stifles/waste are still effective as they need more then 2 lands to get online.
The key to this matchup is to counter the CB/goyf. Burn can take care of the other creatures if necessary. T1 mongoose and spell snare are awesome here.
Its still not an easy MU,but I feel like it's 55vs.45% in ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh's favor.
preboard, the mongoose is a win condition if you can keep their goyfs off the board. post board, i think stifle shines more due to explosives..
if they resolve cb before u land mongoose, u are probably going to lose.