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Ok first you mentioned Ichorid and Merfolk, now your taking me to goblin, zoo, and pox.Quote:
Originally Posted by gustha
I need to specify what your wants and current list is. You will need to PM me again. When you pm me tell me by which percent your meta "you say" would be what.
Ex.
30% gobos
10% ichorid
70% merfok
ect. ect.
I need more clarification before I can understand what your fully saying.
Played a small local event last night with a UWg list. I ran the standard 10x10x10 config with 2 Elspeth, 2 Relic, E Tutor, Crucible, Humility (although I count this as part of the removal suite) rounding out the utility slots. Splashed one Tropical Island to set EE to 3 and play Grip out of the board.
I went 2-1, crushing Progenitus Thresh Variant w/Standstill and Meathooks, but I was worked over pretty hard by Nassif's GP list. Counterbalance rocked me hard both games. I don't understand how anyone thinks they can "play around it" with Landstill. Now I should note that my opponent caught some good breaks: Game 1 I go for Elspeth with 1 mana up for Daze and Force backup. He has 3 cards in hand. He Dazes, I pay, he Dazes, I Force, he Dazes. He also flipped for 3, 4, and 5 off CB. Game 2 he opens with Top, Bob, CB, Goyf (Spell Snared), Trygon with Force backup for my EE. He later shows me that he was holding back 2 Bob and 2 Goyf in hand.
Anyway, under CB/Top here's the cards in your deck that are basically dead when you draw them: Top, Brainstorm, Standstill, Counterspell, Spell Snare, Swords. So under CB/Top you're already down to about 1/3-1/2 of your non-land cards that are effective. If your opponent can find and float a 4cc, forget about it. Good players also save Force for relevant spells, which are about 3 cards: Elspeth, Humility and EE. I'm considering cutting Relics for Grips and adding a 2nd Trop just because CB is such a problem. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I don't understand how any Landstill list that's not running Vindicate can expect to win under CB/Top against a competent player. Someone help me out here.
Were you not running decree and mishra's factory? Those are your mvps in that match.
Factories were answered by Shackles game 1, I saw none game 2 (he had Shackles again anyway). I don't run Decree, but he had Plague on soldier to shut off Elspeth game 2. It was a total blowout.
That's pretty savage. I've seen plague on soldier once in my year or more of playing landstill and ended up drawing because I failed at getting rid of the plague. Granted, anything running blue that isn't combo is something we should break our foots off in their... Whether they run cb, tempo based, or have shackles with other stuff, we should have really good match ups there its just sometimes they god draw when you have a slow hand and we end up playing catch up all game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
how is ur Sideboard with cbalnce looks like with wishstill?
The only cards you care about in nassif's model are the following in this order:Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
1. Counterbalance
2. BOB
3. Force of will
If you can stop these 3 then you win. Goyf is answered by relic/swords/ee/wrath/ wish for path ect. ect. The main key here is spell snare is for only balance and bob, anything else and you mine as well just take the damage from the goyf or figure it out. EP should have been shut off by academy ruins ee recrursion. See heres how that matchup goes. They try to cast some neat 2cc shit, you get rid of it. They try to top some more into play, you answer bob #3 and balance #2. Once you reach this stage in the game you are only looking for ee +academy ruins. That lock wins this matchup hands down.
It's all good when you can Spell Snare a Counterbalance, but once that thing hits play it's an uphill battle unless you've already established an advantageous board position (i.e. Elspeth) or you're well into the late-game. He beat me for 4 a turn with Bob and Trygon and I couldn't answer either one.
In a battle of good players (meaning players who can identify relevant spells that should be countered), I think it really comes down to who has Force backup. If I resolve EE game 2 I likely stabilize before he draws 53 cards off Bob. If he doesn't have triple Daze game 1 Elspeth likely gets there. Thanks for the affirmation that this isn't a terrible matchup that deserves hate-slots, but I am going up to 4 Spell Snare (as has been suggested before)
I hear 4 spell snare is the way to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
... Irony is awesome.
If you had Decrees, you could have just hardcast DoJ for Angel tokens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
He has a point. Angel tokens if you play the way I told you should be the right approach. That or just prolonging elspeth or jace or smoking them with mishra, vendillion is always fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
I've also found vindicate to be great against cb. People talk alot about how counterbalance decks hit 3cc consistently now but it's bullshit. It's usually either snake, war monk or vindicate itself, rarely more than four cards.
Plus EE.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3duece
I was wondering about intuition in Landstill's MD...
Nowadays, landstill's engine works with EE, academy ruin and crucible/loam...
wwhy not cut FoF and add intuition?
I know that topdeck FoF in the late game is great...
or even balance FoF with intuition...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
- KonsultantQuote:
Ive toyed with playing a dedicated green splash before, seems good but i've never been totally sold on it.
Also note that everyone of the regulars here has tested some sort of a combination of green and it is very difficult to fit into todays metagame without hozing some of your matchups. In alot of cases your just better of running mystical tutor.
I tried a UWg list and it was really good against mid-range decks like Survival and Loam. A lot of decks have huge problems with EE+Ruins game one, and I was playing a basic forest so I could just bring back Ruins whenever I wanted against Aggro Loam due to my own LFTL. Also, many Counterbalance thresh lists are cold to Ruins+EE game one. Intuition is extremely clunky, however, and the list had problems with fast aggro. Also, Intuition is susceptible to graveyard hate post board which is super annoying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
Tolaria West is another option. It can't be countered, (except for Stifle) and allows for a B splash instead of G. You can run a pair of Ruins for Intuition piles in a non-green splash, but that only allows for an EE, Ruins, Ruins pile or a Crucible, Ruins, Ruins pile instead of Loam, Ruins, EE or Loam, Wasteland/Dust Bowl, Ruins. Often when I was playing the UWg list, I found myself finding half of a lock piece when I had the other in my hand, so Tolaria West would've done essential the same thing.
Ew just no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn
You need to be running Green splash if you run intuition IF. But if your going this route mystical tutor is much more consistent as I was saying before. RuinsX2 is deffinately not the way to go. Yes i've tested it, and its just terrible.
I wasn't recommending it, I was just saying it is possible. Even with the green splash I wouldn't run Intuition before any of these cards: Fact or Fiction, Top, Cunning Wish, or Ponder.
The thing about the green splash and intuition in landstill is that you start playing engines that make standstill bad. If you want to run intuition with an academy/loam/explosives package then you also want etched oracle because it's ridiculous. And then you want tarmogoyf because you run out of ways to protect yourself while you set the shit up. Then you want stronghold and eternal witness because an intuition pile with them and any other card is also ridiculous. And then you want counterbalance because all your shit costs one and two.
And then you belong in the ITF thread.
And then you find out that ITF blows.
ITF is funny to me because it's really just countertop thresh and a bunch of other synergies that never happen.
Anyone ever go up to four wasteland in this deck?
:laugh: yes, EE&Deed + recurring creatures never happen in ITF.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3duece
I mean, not to make this into an ITF thread or anything, but that stuff really doesn't happen as much as ITF players like to make it sound. That deck wins by countertop lock and goyf beats, pure and simple. It has a ton of awesome utility that it can't use under pressure without countertop lock because setting up and using the engines are clunky, fragile and expensive. And it doesn't run enough win conditions. Or card draw. Also, I don't care what the advocates say, I've extirpated tropical island against ITF before, and the deck just falls apart. Etched Oracle FTW? I don't think so.
When playing against ITF I always find countering their intuitions to be a productive strategy. ITF can be a difficult deck to deal with if you let their intuitions resolve. Intuition is basically a strictly better version of Fact or fiction for them so you should counter it.
Also they can keep you under a pretty hard lock if they board in engineered plague(naming soldiers) while making just about all of your spells obsolete with countertop. Also vindicate can be minimal against ITF since alot of their spells are around the 3cc range.
So you play Cunning Wish and Fact or Fictions. Even Gearhart will admit that straight up card advantage is good against ITF if the control deck makes good use of the said card advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Agent
Good point, this is another reason why I think Cunning Wish should be put back into Landstill especially since alot of us still run Fact or Fiction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
SDT>FOFQuote:
Originally Posted by Mister Agent
All day long.
So I tried building a version of Landstill with a positive Merfolk match-up and still maintaining a positive match up against the rest of the field, like NLU, Thresh, Aggro Loam, Goblins and Zoo. I will openly admit that I do not have any combo hate. Combo is our worst match up, and putting things in the sideboard just to prepare for a rarely played deck weakens a lot of our other match ups, especially against Threshold and other NLU variants.
So some conclusions to make before we go on to my decklist
- Wasteland > Dust Bowl + Tolaria West. Dust Bowl is good at destroying random crap like Academy Ruins and Volrath's Stronghold, but it can't allow you have a safe ticket to play Standstill early in the game. Wastelands destroy Mutavaults and make sure you can play that Standstill.
- Spell Snares should always go in the maindeck. Always. I don't need to explain this to you because the whole format is 2c. Zoo; NLU and Thresh; Aggro Loam; Survival. You should definitely be packing Spell Snares.
- Boarding in Enchantments against a deck boarding Krosan Grips against you is the best way to break even against decks like Thresh and NLU. You play Humility, EE, or even Runed Halo. Seems like enough, right? Definitely not. You only gain virtual card advantage against those decks until they find that Grip, but by boarding in those cards, they can just stockpile threats in their hand until they find a Grip. With 15+ shuffle effects and 4 SDTs, I highly doubt finding Krosan Grip is a problem. I personally think the best way to capitalize on boarding in Enchantments is play Elspeth when you have the game temporarily in your favor. Then again, playing Elspeth when the game is in your favor works anyway. My proposal? Of course, it's to just straight up trade 1-for-1 with those decks and just cast Elspeth and/or Fact or Fiction and dominate them. The only decks I will ever board Enchantments in against is Goblins and Merfolk, and that's because Engineered Plague actually kills creatures.
Anyways, onto the build:
// Mana 25
2 Eternal Dragon
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Plains
2 Island
// Spells 36
3 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Cunning Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
// Sideboard 15
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Path to Exile
1 Return to Dust
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Extirpate
1 Tsabo's Decree
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Engineered Plague
Yes, I run a 4th Spell Snare and a 4th Counterspell as wish targets. Every game Landstill plays, it loses because of it's lack of flexibility. The best way to make up for it is by playing a toolbox. An actual toolbox. Every so often, you will board in that 4th Spell Snare, and that 4th Counterspell if you're playing against Aggro Loam or Landstill mirror.
Crucible of Worlds is amazing. You obviously board it in against Merfolk. Destroying Mutavaults and recovering your mana base is tech. Also, getting that Stifled fetchland back just so you can get a black source for Plague is very satisfying.
You tried to get a good game against meerfolk by making the manabase worse and the spells even more clunky? Wish, FoF, CS and DoJ are horrible cards against them and even Wrath isnīt really good(since they have LD+Scratcher+Daze). To make things even worse you cutted Brainstorm AND top, the two best cards available against fast strategies.
Sorry man, that looks like the worst try ever :/
EDIT: Ah, and that Wishboard sucks too. IF I ever play Wish (which rarely happens today) Iīd go for 1 Pulse, 1 R2D,1 E.Tutor and MAYBE an Extirpate. To get a good Merrow matchup just go for 4 plagues 3-4 Path to Exiles and a GOOD maindeck. My worst result against those ******s was 1-1.
/\
a little harsh
I think the maindeck is good, you have dragons to keep the lands flowing. I actually just tested wish alot, including the merfolk match and found vindicate to be much, much better. This is the list I'm rolling with at the moment.
3 factory
3 wasteland
3 strand
3 delta
4 tundra
1 sea
1 scrubland
2 island
2 plains
1 swamp
4 brainstorm
3 standstill
2 top
2 fact of fiction
1 counterspell
4 spell snare
4 force of will
4 swords
4 vindicate
3 ee
2 wrath
2 decree
2 elspeth
Why do you think he runs Eternal Dragon then? E. dragon is like the ultimate manafixer in UW(x) Landstill. Not to mention, Citrus also runs a handful of plains and islands as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by NQN
In a more control oriented style of landstill, I'd rather run FoF over top because Top just filters cards and that doesn't really do that much when Pure Blue Control wants to draw as many cards as possible.
I don't think E. tutor is really that great as a wishboard target since the maindeck runs alot of answers already and most of the time wishing for a better instant is the better call like Fact or Fiction or Path to Exile. It'll be better to wish for something that can immediately effect the board state or draw you cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by NQN
His wishboard is quite similiar to what Konsultant ran and did well with so maybe the word "sucks" doesn't have any correlation whatsoever.
I agree with the above poster; Enlightened Tutor in the board is a horribly inefficient use of two tutors.
I've been thinking of cutting a Standstill for a Fact or Fiction. I've come to think that it's the worst card in the deck. Due to the nature of a control deck, you're often going to have an inferior board state in the early game and having Standstill in your hand is close to the worst possible card ever. I'd really only like to play one with a single Enlightened Tutor but I'm only cutting one right now for a Fact or Fiction.
Another idea I've being throwing around is cutting down to one Standstill and running two Cunning Wish.
What do all you Landstill players think of Standstill, in general? Obviously, it's good in certain situations but my question is whether it's good enough in general to warrant three mainboard slots.
Code:+1 NQN: Duesche bag comment of the day
You obviously haven't tutor'd for Humility/Top/ Standstill/ EE with wish-Tutor= Answer theory then. I'd consider testing it before you talked about it. Especially as tutor for humility is one of the strongest t4,5 plays landstill can make other then elspeth.Code:I agree with the above poster; Enlightened Tutor in the board is a horribly inefficient use of two tutors.
Been there done that, jace was better and I tested FOF,Relic, Wish so I could get it back if I wanted to cast it again. That only ever happened like twice EVER. Jace is strictly better for the slot and the cc.Code:
I've been thinking of cutting a Standstill for a Fact or Fiction.
Then your not playing enough spells in the early game. If your constantly finding yourself looking on the downside of a tempo game then you need to reconfigure your list.Code:I've come to think that it's the worst card in the deck. Due to the nature of a control deck, you're often going to have an inferior board state in the early game and having Standstill in your hand is close to the worst possible card ever. I'd really only like to play one with a single Enlightened Tutor but I'm only cutting one right now for a Fact or Fiction.
3 Standstill, 2 wish is fine.Code:Another idea I've being throwing around is cutting down to one Standstill and running two Cunning Wish.
yes its good.Quote:
What do all you Landstill players think of Standstill, in general? Obviously, it's good in certain situations but my question is whether it's good enough in general to warrant three mainboard slots.
I can't tell you how many times I've gone, "oh you don't have a turn 1 play?" T2 standstill and ride the card advantage train to an easy victory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitman82
Playing Standstill when you have 0 cards in hand and your opponent has 5+ keeps you in the game.
I don't even know why I am defending standstill. This thread kind of pisses me off sometimes because of stuff like the above quote.
Careful its sunny out there: :cool:
@ Mossivo - I didn't think of Jace. He actually sounds really good.
About Enlightened Tutor, I know how strong it is because I mainboard one with a Crucible, Moat and Vedalken Shackles. Wishing for an Enlightened Tutor is inefficient because you're usually doing that in a tribal matchup where you don't have the time. You're fighting through Wastelands, Stifles or Rishadan Ports while digging for a Wish to tutor for a one-of silver bullet.
@ Rockout - I promise I'm not trying to piss anyone off. It was a question. I thought forums were for answering questions. Sorry for ruining your day.
I'm not the person running 6 fetchlands and getting Stifled all the time. I'm also not the person who cuts Lands. Ask Goblin_Snowman, my teammate. While playtesting, I thrashed him so hard, you have no idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by NQN
Also, relying on EE sucks. Seriously, they just Stifle that shit. That's fucking stupid, just play fucking Wraths.
Also, their LD is tres pathetic. Stifle didn't do squat and Wastelands only ever hit my Factories, not the my lands. If they do, then I cast Standstill and draw into my lands again.
Wish, FoF, CS and DoJ serve their purpose really well. I've counted so many games where I just cycle DoJ, make surprise blockers and just kill off their entire army. If they cast Stifle, oh goodie, they suck at counter wars. I'll just counter that Stifle. Counterspell help me win counterwars and FoF just draws me cards.
You obviously don't play with Wish very much, at all. In playtesting, I've only lost against them once during playtesting. It gets better when I board Plagues in against them.Quote:
EDIT: Ah, and that Wishboard sucks too. IF I ever play Wish (which rarely happens today) Iīd go for 1 Pulse, 1 R2D,1 E.Tutor and MAYBE an Extirpate. To get a good Merrow matchup just go for 4 plagues 3-4 Path to Exiles and a GOOD maindeck. My worst result against those ******s was 1-1.
I agree that boards are for answering questions but when you ask why not run 1 standstill then that tells me that you haven't read any of this thread that has a lot of really good information in terms of mana base, the right numbers for each slot, and great sideboarding strategy that I wish everyone would read.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitman82
Yeah, but the only people who ever actually read through this thread are Landstill players. Most players who come in just to skim and check out the latest builds are just people trying to metagame and such.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
Good for them. I hope they do. I want to whip my dick out and smack them in the face at my next tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
Careful its sunny out there: :cool:
Ok, so I've never played with Jace before, but since a lot of people are talking very highly of him I'm obviously going to start testing.
Question, though: are you guys speeding up the game by a turn each activation by giving him +1, or expecting just to draw 3 by giving him the -1? Or does it depend on the matchup, board position, what's in your hand, etc.?
I'm only asking because I just can't see wanting to have my opponent draw as well. Symmetrical effects are only good if your deck is better equipped to take advantage of said effect. Landstill isn't, as we can only play one land per turn anyway. Therefore it seems to me that decks that operate on a lower curve would gain too much from our own Jace.
Is this thinking correct? Let me know!