-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Whitefaces
Ban Tarmogoyf!
^+1
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hrothgar
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hrothgar
This is not a % of meta question, this is a "sense of the card" and "good games" question, but maybe this is not clear and I try to explain, but this is impossible to understand for some player frustrated by blue, who find, in Chalice, a simply brainless way to beat blue decks.
Probe and Chalice are, in their substances, two stupid card who can give, to the player who play them, an incredible advantage in asymmetrical way.
All the decks who play probe, play Therapy in 75 (monored storm no obv) and, with Pyromancer (in Grixis Delver, ee), this make a too strong interaction who can destroy the opponent hand with no use of brain, just only reading the card in the opponent hand.
The 70% of times, there ere are no difference in player's skill for this Pyromancer+Probe+Therapy loop, and this is not a good Magic.
Deck with Chalice of the Void, too many times, have an incredible advantage just playing a solland and chalice in turn 1, transforming the opponent's hand in a mulligan at 2/3 with an asymmetrical advantage for the chalice player.
This is no good because of the opponent, substantially, do not play a mtg game many times.
Again, the chalice player gets an advantage in a passively way (with no use of brain), and this is not a good Magic.
Banning this 2 cards, there are no risk of an ANT explosion, because ANT losing the Probe (+ Therapy), and this means who storm player have other trouble (ee can't sack LED in response to a Probe and other tricks).
Oh, just noticed who Gitaxian Probe is a blue card :wink:
The time running but I have the same Thought... now, with the rise of Moon / Dragon Stompy (...) this Thought is more strong the before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
I'd be fine with a probe ban.... And it's completely retarded. ....
I agree with you but do not forget Chalice of the Void that, instead, it's very skilled and difficult card to use..
Both are wrong and need ban.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ronald Deuce
I'm not sure banning Probe or Deathrite would kill any decks, but why would we ban them if they're nowhere near the top slots? Hell, Delver still delivers more damage than Deathrite and pitches to Force, but people don't complain.
They aren't anywhere near the top slots? :really:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-s...egacy/full/all
I still don't get how people compare Delver and DRS by only "flipped power > elf power, is blue".
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Whitefaces
Ban Tarmogoyf!
Boo.....no we need more creatures that get hosed by rip. #maketerravoregreatagain.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Can we ban people who do even/odd rolls?
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stevestamopz
Who said it was? Am I missing something?
Maybe a better analogy would have been Delver of Secrets and Monastery Swiftspear replacing Wild Nacatl and Kird Ape?
Anyway, yes, you missed something. The point went over your head.
Back when Goyf was printed, the arguments for banning it were not very different conceptually from the arguments against DRS today. It was far more efficient than everything else, and previously playable cards were no longer playable.
Fast forward to today. There has been continuous creature power creep, and the threats continue to become more efficient and more powerful for their cost. DRS is obviously more powerful than Birds of Paradise. It's simply the way power creep works.
The point is, being an efficient threat that sees play in a wide variety of decks isn't a justified reason to ban something. Tarmogoyf was just as ubiquitous back in 2010 as DRS is today.
If we ban DRS for being too efficient, do we then ban Delver next? And after Delver, do we then go after Gurmag Angler? Then Tarmogoyf? Goblin Guide?!
The point is, why does something always need to be banned? The format is healthy.
The most justified argument that I've seen so far is that Grixis Delver is the best deck in the format and constantly putting multiple copies into Top 8's... but the thing is, even if you ban DRS, Delver is still going to be the best deck in the format. I'd argue that a ban on Delver of Secrets would do more to reduce the amount of "Delver" decks (Waste/Daze tempo decks) making Top 8's, if that was the goal.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CptHaddock
Can we ban people who do even/odd rolls?
Seems odd that someone would take issue with dice rolls. Even for the 'ban everything!' crowd, I think this goes too far.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
The only thing DRS is guilty of in terms of damaging gamebalance, is enabling 4c goodstuff monstrosities, which are not kept in check by Wasteland, Bloodmoon & Co anymore.
The days people actually got punished for greedy manabases have ended the day 4c Deathblade became a thing. Every deck with DRS + Cantrips since then is just following the traits.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jasper
Seems odd that someone would take issue with dice rolls. Even for the 'ban everything!' crowd, I think this goes too far.
http://barkbarkwoofwoof.com/wp-conte...n-10-07-15.jpg
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
@taconaut [1, 7, 8] the argument for Probe has to be more complex than if it were so good everyone would run it. A deck like maverick could use it to see an axis its opponent intends to interact on, but not actually have any cards its strategy could have employed to interact (like if you see Belcher ready to go off, you're still dead). In miracles it would be unhelpful to see Sylvan Library in their hand if you cut the maindeck CJ for Probe.
I don't think it does. If the animating principle of the ban list is that we remove cards that are format warping, because they force you to play them or play to beat them (you may disagree with this formula), then a card that is useful in some decks but not others does not meet that criteria. It is impossible to hold the position that Probe is both:
1) Lacking relevant costs/risks to play
2) Unplayable in some subset of decks
If (1) is true, and the card is truly strictly positive EV, then it must be included in every deck played by a competitive player. If (2) is true, (1) cannot be.
[2] When it comes to Delver decks there's no doubt that perfect play, made possible by the information a turn 1 Probe provides, wins a certain %age of legacy games...but on margins as narrow as Delver decks operate, having an interactive spell in place of Probe will provide more win %age when they're unable to gain additive advantage through Probe's pairing with potential 1 mana 2 for 1s (Therapy) and feeding of a delve engine. Speaking just of Delver decks, theory dictates you're more likely to make top8 if your variant can profitably use Probe - gaining perfect info without sacrificing power.
A more polarizing example of deep tournament runs could be made with infect, where one would expect that their winrate increase proportional to how many Probes they saw anytime they 'had it' and an opponent didn't.
I can't really parse the italicized text, but I agree it's probable that Probe delver decks are better than non-Probe delver decks. I think the Infect example is a Red Herring at best and counterproductive to your argument at worst - when was the last time anyone won anything with Infect?
[3] Harder to answer this...the unfair part has more to do with near-zero exposure to risk to gain advantage. Probe only really fits into proactive strategies, Again, implying it is not too powerful and universally applicable and you're playing into Chalice & burn on some level, but past that point a Probe player has committed nothing to which an opponent can interact against. It's kind of like playing Backgammon where one player always knows what their opponent's next roll will be - it's not really a healthy aspect of game design, nor is it about making the best decisions.
Things that interact with Probe:
- you mentioned Chalice of the Void and Eidolon
- Leovold
- Spirit of the Labyrinth
- Resistors
- Thalia
- Cards that give players hexproof
- Canonist/Arcane Lab Effects
- Cards that obscure your hand's true contents (brainstorm, tutors)
- Pressuring their life total (I know 2 life is about as close to no cost as you can get in Magic, but it isn't actually nothing)
- Discard
- Permission
It is about making the best decisions - if I probe you, those decisions are easier to make. If you think that ability is bannably powerful, then why not play it in your deck?
[5] Making an opponent's options worse is fine, but there should be an expectation that in doing so they have committed resources and in so doing have exposed themselves to risk. It's not what Probe does that offends, it's not even necessarily that it's mana positive (with delve), but the lack of preconditions [i.e. axes of interaction].
Addressed above.
@ahg113 from mtgtop8: Gitaxian Probe coming in at 24% making it the 5th most played non-creature spell in legacy. The main decks you need to talk about with Probe (post-DTT ban) are Grixis Delver and ANT. Aside from a Chalice deck which will generally hate on any Probe deck, the suggestions are actively game-losing. Actually tagging on the requirement to 'show me the basic Island' to pay life for Probe not only maintains healthy use of the card, but it also prevents game-ending Probe->Sea->Therapy; particularly before an opponent has even had a chance to begin playing and especially in those games where they mulled into a duplicate nonland. So no, this is nothing like Brainstorm at sorcery speed - a turn 1 Brainstorm does not equal game over for an opponent. It's really important to understand the difference between Brainstorm being a high power card, and Gitaxian Probe not requiring you to have made a choice on land played - that choice is inherently subject to a risk of being interacted with.
I thought you wanted them to lead on Sea so you could Wasteland them? Moreover, what if they just fetch island, ponder, then turn two, probe you, play a sea, therapy you? I get what you're trying to say (probe players can sometimes plan during a period where other players have to guess) but this power is available to you! Surely there must be a reason not to avail yourself of it if it's such a big deal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stevestamopz
A card that has been banned in Modern and is also restricted in Vintage is obviously quite powerful and it's pretty lolworthy to read people saying otherwise.
I'm not disputing that it's powerful, but I do think Vintage and Modern are meaningfully different - in Vintage, Monastery Mentor is a much bigger deal, and the format revolves around various ways to cheat mana and make aggressive, swingy plays, which are both things Probe is good at, and potentially good enough at in that context that it warrants restriction. Modern is a completely separate discussion; they will ban literally anything and everything there, so I don't think it has any bearing on other formats. At least, I hope it doesn't have bearing on other formats...Modern used to be sweet, and now it is miserable, because they banned the soul out of it. I think Probe and Deathrite Shaman are definitely pushed, but I think they're right about where Legacy wants to be.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stevestamopz
A card that has been banned in Modern and is also restricted in Vintage is obviously quite powerful and it's pretty lolworthy to read people saying otherwise.
Is anybody actually saying that? Every card in this format is "quite powerful". That's not really the relevant consideration.
- Mentor decks are not really a problem in Legacy. Is Grixis Tempo hitting Vintage Mentor levels of representation (honest question)?
- As for Modern, isn't that the format that had formerly banned Preordain and Wild Kitty (rhetorical question)? That's not how we roll in Legacy.
- Legacy has always had better reactive decks than a Modern player has ever dreamed of. We don't really have to worry about all-in decks here. In fact, combo decks are not a problem at all these days.
Lotus Petal, LED, and Chrome Mox are also Vintage restricted and banned in Modern (or would be if they had Modern printings). But it would be laughable to cite this as being in any way relevant to their impact on Legacy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stevestamopz
More to the point though, people are having a sook about Grixis Delver, and Wizard have demonstrated a willingness to cave to public pressure. Reading between the lines in the 24/04/17 update, they actually name it as a card they're keeping their eye on in Legacy.
I would agree this is the most likely ban, but not that it's likely. G-Probe is no MM or SDT (and look what it took to ban the latter - years of relative dominance as well as a logistic citation).
As for the 2017 WotC quote, worth noting that at the time they printed that they had approximately zero data from the post SDT Legacy (and they haven't mentioned it since). I wouldn't put much stock in that statement myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Matsu
Can someone make a new poll before GP Seattle?
Include Probe, DRS, Brainstorm, Fetch, TNN, S&T, Leo, Terminus... I am just curious what the outcome will be.
A new Poll every 2 month which end a week before banning announcement will be great.
Yeah man, I was just thinking this dumpster-fire could use a regular dose of petrol!
:laugh:
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
I would agree this is the most likely ban, but not that it's likely. G-Probe is no MM or SDT (and look what it took to ban the latter - years of relative dominance as well as a logistic citation).
I actually think it's very likely - they've called it out by name, and it's a card that fits into exactly the kinds of decks Wizards inexplicably hates. :frown:
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
taconaut
I actually think it's very likely - they've called it out by name, and it's a card that fits into exactly the kinds of decks Wizards inexplicably hates. :frown:
If they make a ban, presumably they would sell it to us as a Grixis Delver nerf. They might hate Infect and Storm, but those decks do not warrant a ban at all.
Would G-Probe be the right ban to hurt Grixis?
Seems to me the deck did fine running Stifle. I tend to doubt a Probe ban would have a huge impact on that deck. If they want to hurt, Grixis, it would make more sense to hit Pyromance, or succumb to public outcry and ban DRS. Those bans would actually hurt Grixis (likely kill it), but still leave other Delver archetypes intact.
Note - upon this reflection I retract my statement that Probe is the most likely ban.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
If they make a ban, presumably they would sell it to us as a Grixis Delver nerf. They might hate Infect and Storm, but those decks do not warrant a ban at all.
Would G-Probe be the right ban to hurt Grixis?
Seems to me the deck did fine running Stifle. I tend to doubt a Probe ban would have a huge impact on that deck. If they want to hurt, Grixis, it would make more sense to hit Pyromance, or succumb to public outcry and ban DRS. Those bans would actually hurt Grixis (likely kill it), but still leave other Delver archetypes intact.
Note - upon this reflection I retract my statement that Probe is the most likely ban.
No no, you're on to something.
Would they ban Gitaxian Probe? Sure why not.
Would they sell it as a nerf to Grixes Delver? Indubitably.
Would it have any effect on the performance of Grixis Delver? Not within significant figures.
Wizard's have shown themselves to be at least consistent in their dumb decisions. To the point now the fact that it wouldn't make any sense is a stronger indicator that it will in fact happen.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
@taconaut: Probe increases win percentage, but you do have to have a deck which can translate information into 'this is how I win.' You might use that knowledge to win on the spot (Infect example) or you might win over multiple turns because your decisions are no longer tied to player skill (Delver example). There's also the more complex role of Probe in ANT or alongside delve spells where it's a mix of information and also threshold/mana engine. It can't be in every deck because, without deliberate deck construction, free information can only be responsible for so many wins by itself - at some point a business spell will create more wins in a statistical sample. If a deck's strategy can't use Probe as a force multiplier then there are better cards to use (well....unless Brainstorm is banned for some reason, and then Ponder/Probe is more winning than Ponder/Preordain - this is conjecture, but it's a reasonable hypothesis).
Now Probe doesn't ruin the legacy format because even among the decks that profitably employ it, there are very different strategies (unlike vintage where UWR mentor took over). It's presence in a format doesn't push out differing strategies to an unacceptable degree (this was untrue when UR Cruise Delver was around, also untrue for DTT OmniTell). Probe does not have text that causes everyone else to react or lose (this format warping aspect is most true of the card Counterbalance). Probe lacks any preconditions which promote any but the most narrow interaction - and this is the main problem with Probe, the rules of phyrexian mana.
Probe itself is fine, and everything else about it would be fine if the caster had to provide evidence of Basic [supertype] Island [subtype] on the battlefield before alt-casting for two life. The same can be said of Surgical Extraction, a card that should not castable for two life (after that player has had a main phase in a game of magic) until the player has provided evidence of Basic Swamp on the field.
Now Probe isn't Misstep in terms of 'play it or else,' but the frustration of players with this card is reasonable - for zero risk a Probe player can downplay (as well as their deck is able) any chance for an opponent meaningfully interact....or the game is over because Probe->Sea->Therapy happened before you ever got a turn. This is a mechanics/game theory problem, not a card problem. I don't think the mechanical fix I proposed is too complex; it's literally City's Blessing for a Basic land type (plus a turn zero exception), could even just call it Phyrexia's Blessing or [insert Praetor's name] Blessing.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ace/Homebrew
the joke
your head
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jasper
the joke
your head
Burn.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
@taconaut: Probe increases win percentage, but you do have to have a deck which can translate information into 'this is how I win.'
Are there any competitive decks that do not meet this criteria? Maybe Eldrazi or other stompy decks, but these can't play probe anyway because of chalices? I feel that every DTB requires information to play optimally, which implies this distinction does not exclude any decks, and is therefore not relevant.
You might use that knowledge to win on the spot (Infect example)
ANT or TES might be better examples, but also both run discard, which will also let you see your opponent's hand.
or you might win over multiple turns because your decisions are no longer tied to player skill (Delver example).
Why is player skill wholly predicated on "ability to guess what is in my opponent's hand?"
Other relevant skills in Magic:
- Understanding which of my opponent's cards are relevant to my game plan and theirs
- Understanding combat math and who is in the driver's seat in terms of racing
- Properly matching answers and threats (eg., I could daze this tarmogoyf or push it, but push doesn't answer non-creature cards, but daze loses power as the game goes longer, but I also play lightning bolts and may need reach later, etc etc)
- Deckbuilding skills
- Mulliganing skills
- Fetching the correct colors/managing resources appropriately (eg., can I afford to wasteland, can I afford to be cold to wasteland, which colors do I need to represent to address my opponent's threats and maximize my plays)
I honestly think the notion that Gitaxian Probe turns Magic into a perfunctory exercise devoid of meaningful decisions is just not accurate, and I think a lot of that feeling comes from the types of decks its detractors play.
There's also the more complex role of Probe in ANT or alongside delve spells where it's a mix of information and also threshold/mana engine.
These are the cool, subtle bonuses that make the card interesting.
It can't be in every deck because, without deliberate deck construction, free information can only be responsible for so many wins by itself - at some point a business spell will create more wins in a statistical sample. If a deck's strategy can't use Probe as a force multiplier then there are better cards to use
And this is why it isn't reasonable to ban it.
(well....unless Brainstorm is banned for some reason, and then Ponder/Probe is more winning than Ponder/Preordain - this is conjecture, but it's a reasonable hypothesis).
Unfortunately, we can't know that until and unless Brainstorm is banned. That's a different argument though, so I'll leave it for now.
Now Probe doesn't ruin the legacy format because even among the decks that profitably employ it, there are very different strategies (unlike vintage where UWR mentor took over). It's presence in a format doesn't push out differing strategies to an unacceptable degree (this was untrue when UR Cruise Delver was around, also untrue for DTT OmniTell). Probe does not have text that causes everyone else to react or lose (this format warping aspect is most true of the card Counterbalance).
All of these things are more or less true (I don't think Counterbalance was actually oppressive, though certainly a powerful deck that demanded answers), and I think support my argument that Probe is not bannable.
Probe lacks any preconditions which promote any but the most narrow interaction
I listed a ton of things that interact with it, and moreover, I think interacting with it isn't really all that big a deal. It literally does "Peek."
- and this is the main problem with Probe, the rules of phyrexian mana.
Phyrexian Mana is a reasonable thing to which to object, as are all freebie mechanics.
Probe itself is fine,
Agreed, glad we figured it out :wink::tongue:
and everything else about it would be fine if the caster had to provide evidence of Basic [supertype] Island [subtype] on the battlefield before alt-casting for two life. The same can be said of Surgical Extraction, a card that should not castable for two life (after that player has had a main phase in a game of magic) until the player has provided evidence of Basic Swamp on the field.
I actually find Extraction marginally more objectionable than probe, but still not to a bannable extent. I think applying the requirement to Extraction would make it close to unplayable, because the nice thing about it is that you can stop BR Reanimator (or at least make it harder for them) if you are non-blue. Sometimes they have the chancellor, sure, but every deck in Legacy has nut draws.
Now Probe isn't Misstep in terms of 'play it or else,' but the frustration of players with this card is reasonable - for zero risk a Probe player can downplay (as well as their deck is able) any chance for an opponent meaningfully interact....or the game is over because Probe->Sea->Therapy happened before you ever got a turn.
Still not super different than Thoughtseize, but people don't seem to be buying that, so it's the last time I'll mention it.
This is a mechanics/game theory problem, not a card problem.
I think the game theory does not bear out an argument for banning probe. If we assume Legacy is more or less at equilibrium and Probe is only in the decks where it makes the most sense, as opposed to in all decks, well....there it is.
As for the mechanics, some people might not like the gameplay of it. I think the gameplay of chalice is dumb as hell. Currently, sometimes people are gonna give me the cup, and sometimes people are gonna see what's in your hand. I think both of those are worth it for how good games of Legacy usually are.
I don't think the mechanical fix I proposed is too complex; it's literally City's Blessing for a Basic land type (plus a turn zero exception), could even just call it Phyrexia's Blessing or [insert Praetor's name] Blessing.
I get, and like, the spirit of the rule you're proposing, I just think it's a little clunky, and would only really matter for, what, three cards? I don't think it's worth it, or that those cards are an actual problem.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
>fighting attrition battle
>leave opponent with empty board other than lands and 2 blanks in hand
>i have DRS and 4 spirit tokens on board
>opponent topdecks TNN
>opponent topdecks second TNN
Fuck this shit card.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jasper
the joke
your head
https://media.giphy.com/media/5xtDar...oiqI/giphy.gif
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maharis
>fighting attrition battle
>leave opponent with empty board other than lands and 2 blanks in hand
>i have DRS and 4 spirit tokens on board
>opponent topdecks TNN
>opponent topdecks second TNN
Fuck this shit card.
You win this race so hard, unless you're at such a lower life total you can just replace TNN with like ... bolt bolt?
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PirateKing
Wizard's have shown themselves to be at least consistent in their dumb decisions. To the point now the fact that it wouldn't make any sense is a stronger indicator that it will in fact happen.
Are we talking about the same format?
When has there ever been a lame-duck ban in Legacy?
- SDT ban effectively dethroned Miracles and opened the meta.
- DTT Ban was effective in curbing Omnitell.
- TC ban took a bite out of the UR(x) Tempo decks.
- SotF ban killed the target deck.
I can only assume you are using the management of other formats as your basis here? WotC have succeeded in not f'ing up Legacy with bans to date (and they have also demonstrated extreme reluctance, especially for established format staples).
-
All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rascalyote
You win this race so hard, unless you're at such a lower life total you can just replace TNN with like ... bolt bolt?
I’m just being salty but I was using my life total as a resource while I set up and just got totally punished by the topdeck. It was 18 to 11 I believe.
Yes, I should’ve been able to buy myself time with my board. But you can’t chump block, you cant have a zillion ways to kill it mb, it’s in the same deck as bolt so whatever. It’s just miserable. Worse, I felt like I should just be playing it, not because it does anything interesting, but because it just is the best thing to do at 3 in a fair deck. Totally warping and uninteresting.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maharis
I’m just being salty but I was using my life total as a resource while I set up and just got totally punished by the topdeck. It was 18 to 11 I believe.
Yes, I should’ve been able to buy myself time with my board. But you can’t chump block, you cant have a zillion ways to kill it mb, it’s in the same deck as bolt so whatever. It’s just miserable. Worse, I felt like I should just be playing it, not because it does anything interesting, but because it just is the best thing to do at 3 in a fair deck. Totally warping and uninteresting.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I can see where you're coming from tbh, I started playing Dark Depths again in my deck so I don't have to deal with all this TNN stuff.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
taconaut
I feel that every DTB requires information to play optimally, which implies this distinction does not exclude any decks, and is therefore not relevant.
While that is true there is a not unsubstantial list of decks who's only information in a game is going to be what it's pilot can gleam in real time. The top preforming decks that fit this category are Elves (preboard), Lands, DnT and Eldrazi.
These decks all appear to forgo information gathering for redundancy and other powerful effects such as Tutors, Tinker and Recall.
Let's not talk about banning something until a deck has been told dog for at least 2 years. That seems to be about the time line Wizards works on.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
Maybe a better analogy would have been Delver of Secrets and Monastery Swiftspear replacing Wild Nacatl and Kird Ape?
Anyway, yes, you missed something. The point went over your head.
Back when Goyf was printed, the arguments for banning it were not very different conceptually from the arguments against DRS today. It was far more efficient than everything else, and previously playable cards were no longer playable.
Fast forward to today. There has been continuous creature power creep, and the threats continue to become more efficient and more powerful for their cost. DRS is obviously more powerful than Birds of Paradise. It's simply the way power creep works.
The point is, being an efficient threat that sees play in a wide variety of decks isn't a justified reason to ban something. Tarmogoyf was just as ubiquitous back in 2010 as DRS is today.
Yeah nah, I didn't miss anything. You just made a false equivalency and thought it was clever.
Comparing a vanilla beater or a mana dork to a 1 mana planeswalker... :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stevestamopz
.
Comparing a vanilla beater or a mana dork to a 1 mana planeswalker... :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
In a banned list context, it is relevant which decks a card supports, how ubiguous the card is, and how it might perhaps be pushing too many other cards or play-styles out.
Whether a card is a beater or a walker; 1 mana or 2 mana, doesn't really inform the conversation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stevestamopz
You just made a false equivalency and thought it was clever.
Speaking of thinking false equivalences to be clever, DRS is a utility creature and not a walker. It dies to Plow, Edict, Terminus, and Tabernacle; but you can't just attack it with dudes.
Let's try to be factual here. Better discourse that way, right?
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
Are we talking about the same format?
When has there ever been a lame-duck ban in
Legacy?
- SDT ban effectively dethroned Miracles and opened the meta.
- DTT Ban was effective in curbing Omnitell.
- TC ban took a bite out of the UR(x) Tempo decks.
- SotF ban killed the target deck.
I can only assume you are using the management of other formats as your basis here? WotC have succeeded in not f'ing up Legacy with bans to date (and they have also demonstrated extreme reluctance, especially for established format staples).
Mystical tutor reanimator too. Mental misstep is probably the exception.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
Let's try to be factual here. Better discourse that way, right?
In this thread? Nah man, get out of here.
Also, what is hyperbole?
Drs is the greatest utility creature of all time, sure you got me! It has been referred to many times as the "littlest planeswalker". Attacking my semantics still doesn't mean that comparing DRS to Goyf or Birds is correct. What's that ancient greek quote about attacking how someone said something and not actually what they said?
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stevestamopz
Yeah nah, I didn't miss anything. You just made a false equivalency and thought it was clever.
Comparing a vanilla beater or a mana dork to a 1 mana planeswalker... :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
False equivalency in what way? The comparison had nothing to do with the technical specifications of the cards in question; it was purely an analogy between the efficiency and power level difference between a set of cards. I could have been more drastic and compared Goyf with Wild Mongrel, Arrogant Wurm, Ravenous Baloth, or whatever else instead, which all saw play before Tarmogoyf was printed.
If you have only been playing Legacy since 2014, then I can understand why you don't see the parallels between Goyf in 2008 and DRS today.
Whether the cards are vanilla or have a hundred lines of text is irrelevant to the discussion of power creep. If they print a vanilla 10/10 creature for a single mana with no drawbacks, are you seriously going to believe that it's less OP than DRS because it is vanilla?
DRS is the most efficient and powerful mana dork ever printed, but it's within the power level of Legacy standards. We play in a format with turn 0 Chancellor into turn 1 Griselbrand.
DRS is an overly pushed card that should have had many things changed to make it less powerful. However, none of those things happened, and the card isn't breaking Legacy in half. It sees play in a wide variety of decks, the same way Goyf was jammed into everything a decade ago, but I don't see anything degenerate or format warping as a result.
Delver being the best deck doesn't change in a format without DRS. In fact, Stifle/Waste/Daze get significantly better. So if the intention is to nerf Delver, banning actual Delver is a much more effective ban.
What sort of format do you expect we would have without DRS, and why would that be better for Legacy than what we have right now?
There is always going to be a best deck. At least right now, the best deck is a somewhat fair and balanced deck like Grixis Delver. We have certainly had more miserable 'best deck in format' decks in the past.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
While that is true there is a not unsubstantial list of decks who's only information in a game is going to be what it's pilot can gleam in real time. The top preforming decks that fit this category are Elves (preboard), Lands, DnT and Eldrazi.
These decks all appear to forgo information gathering for redundancy and other powerful effects such as Tutors, Tinker and Recall.
That was exactly my point - if Probe (and the information it provides) is so important, it could shore up that weakness of these decks. Yet, no one plays it, implying it isn't as gamebreakingly powerful as he was implying.
Saying "only decks that can act on extra info can play probe" is a meaningless distinction because every deck benefits from extra information. If getting that information were literally free, as many Probe detractors argue, then a competitive player must avail themselves of it. We know they do not. Therefore, either Legacy players are not competitive (unlikely), or Probe is balanced enough to have reasonable applications in some decks and not others (likely).
I do see you're not advocating a ban though, so it seems like we're on the same page.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
Whether the cards are vanilla or have a hundred lines of text is irrelevant to the discussion of power creep. If they print a vanilla 10/10 creature for a single mana with no drawbacks, are you seriously going to believe that it's less OP than DRS because it is vanilla?
I actually agree with all your points about Deathrite Shaman, though this one struck me as an interesting thought experiment - I am actually not sure if a 1 mana 10/10 is more broken than DRS...it doesn't provide grave hate, it doesn't ramp you, it doesn't fix your mana, it might be harder to cast if it's monocolored, it might not have a relevant creature type, it still dies to swords and push, has no evasion, doesn't gain you life...it would certainly see play, but I don't know if it would beat the Deathrite decks.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
False equivalency in what way? The comparison had nothing to do with the technical specifications of the cards in question; it was purely an analogy between the efficiency and power level difference between a set of cards. I could have been more drastic and compared Goyf with Wild Mongrel, Arrogant Wurm, Ravenous Baloth, or whatever else instead, which all saw play before Tarmogoyf was printed.
It's a false equivalency because Goyf is only good at one thing: beating other creature decks not playing Goyf. It doesn't do anything against combo decks itself clock, it doesn't shrink an opposing KotR while undoing Knight's looping wastelands thing. DRS is actually better at beating DnT than Goyf is, and that's the only remaining fair creature deck left. I'm not going to start quoting what DRS does, but it does a hell of a lot more than Goyf does, duh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
If you have only been playing Legacy since 2014, then I can understand why you don't see the parallels between Goyf in 2008 and DRS today.
Whether the cards are vanilla or have a hundred lines of text is irrelevant to the discussion of power creep. If they print a vanilla 10/10 creature for a single mana with no drawbacks, are you seriously going to believe that it's less OP than DRS because it is vanilla?
Close enough, only since the start of 2012. Luckily, I can read about it. Goyf was in memefolk it was in countertop decks. It was still just a finisher and a beatstick. It didn't annihilate almost every other strategy by itself.
People would still say that a 1 mana 10/10 dies to plow/push/decay can be countered/chumped and they would also do my favourite legacy argument of which you have so kindly obliged me with;
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
BIG BOI 1 mana 10/10 is the most efficient and powerful beater ever printed, but it's within the power level of Legacy standards. We play in a format with turn 0 Chancellor into turn 1 Griselbrand
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
DRS is an overly pushed card that should have had many things changed to make it less powerful. However, none of those things happened, and the card isn't breaking Legacy in half. It sees play in a wide variety of decks, the same way Goyf was jammed into everything a decade ago, but I don't see anything degenerate or format warping as a result.
Literally every deck that can accommodate a small splash to use DRS does so. Even Aggro-Loam with it's 4 maindeck chalices was playing 1 to Zenith for. What part of this is not format warping. Where Goyf was just a beater for the counter-top decks or the zoo decks, DRS just annihilates all opposing strategies whether you're a mana-denial deck or a Past in Flames deck or a Rite of Flame deck or a Life from the Loam deck or even a Lava Spike deck. Literally the only deck it doesn't really impact is Show and Tell. Context matters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
Delver being the best deck doesn't change in a format without DRS. In fact, Stifle/Waste/Daze get significantly better. So if the intention is to nerf Delver, banning actual Delver is a much more effective ban.
Back you go to this false equivalency of banning vanilla creatures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
What sort of format do you expect we would have without DRS, and why would that be better for Legacy than what we have right now.
It would be a whole lot less boring. Underground Sea -> Deathrite every single game wooooh such an interesting format. Delver or Strix, Counterspells or Discard, True-Name Nemesis or Jace the Mind Sculptor. Wow, what a compelling format.
Fair blue decks are always going to be the best decks, but when the best fair blue deck is immune to almost everything because of 1 card, it disincentives players to bother. Goyf and Birds do not, have not and will not ever provide a deck with the same ridiculous power that DRS does. The card has been a plague for some time and is only getting worse as more and more people realise how OP the card is. Remember when the best thing to do with DRS was to play it in Punishing Jund? LOL
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stevestamopz
Literally every deck that can accommodate a small splash to use DRS does so.
- Lands
- ANT
- LED Dredge
- RBg Reanimator
- Infect
- Turbo Depths
- Thresh
All disagree.
How many decks actually splash a colour for DRS? I'm thinking:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stevestamopz
Also, what is hyperbole?
In this thread it's a tool used to demonize a card that somebody wants banned but cannot provide an objective argument.
DRS is a powerful card, but you seem to want everyone to believe it's more powerful than it actually is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stevestamopz
Attacking my semantics still doesn't mean that comparing DRS to Goyf or Birds is correct. What's that ancient greek quote about attacking how someone said something and not actually what they said?
I'm not attacking your semantics. I'm ridiculing you for complaint about an (alleged) false equivalence in the same breath as making an obvious one yourself.
The comparison, BTW, has nothing to do with the function of the card. It's all about how a card is ubiquitous and pushes certain decks. It's been pointed out several times that these are the only relevant properties of a card in this context. Keep ignoring that and enjoy your campaign I guess.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
taconaut
That was exactly my point - if Probe (and the information it provides) is so important, it could shore up that weakness of these decks. Yet, no one plays it, implying it isn't as gamebreakingly powerful as he was implying.
Saying "only decks that can act on extra info can play probe" is a meaningless distinction because every deck benefits from extra information. If getting that information were literally free, as many Probe detractors argue, then a competitive player must avail themselves of it. We know they do not. Therefore, either Legacy players are not competitive (unlikely), or Probe is balanced enough to have reasonable applications in some decks and not others (likely).
I do see you're not advocating a ban though, so it seems like we're on the same page.
I think this is a little reductive. No deck that plays probe plays it only for the Peek. The information is valued but it alone is never the goal. Some decks play it to generate tokens, to use as mana with Delve or to reduce the deck size in combo builds. These extra features is what gives the card its power and what causes issues for its detractors.
A deck like DnT needs none of these extra features, so it ignores the card. While yes, the information would be valuable as DnT has a surprising amount of instant speed interaction, it gains no auxiliary benefit from playing the card. Therefore it is not a consideration for inclusion. (And Thalia fucks it.) The same holds true for Elves and Lands. The deck on my previous list that I feel would most like to have the information effect alone is Eldrazi. As knowing what lock piece or creature to play early can change the whole Tempo of the game. This ability is left on the cutting room floor not because it's use is not valued but because Chalice is more versatile and effective in the decks game plan.
I'm not arguing for a ban, I do though think that looking at the card as nothing more than an slower and cheaper Peek is reductive and unproductive. If all the card did was Peek with no second hand effects created by deck building I think it would see far less play.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
I can't quote you because you keep editing your comment
Yeah man Deathrite is barely played because storm combo decks don't play it :really: (although I did see people trying it out in Storm) and now you're saying Bug Thresh has never been a thing. Fair enough, fits the theme of your posts. I guess you also forgot to include Turbo Depths in your list of decks that don't play DRS either :rolleyes:
https://i.imgur.com/zbsNZOE.png
Oh wait... what?
You can keep trying to "ridicule" me for referring to DRS as a planeswalker (it clearly is not an actual planeswalker, but it certainly acts like one) and deny that you're attacking how I say things without actually adding to the argument about why DRS shouldn't be banned, but this is still the reality of the format right now.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stevestamopz
It's a false equivalency because Goyf is only good at one thing: beating other creature decks not playing Goyf. It doesn't do anything against combo decks itself clock, it doesn't shrink an opposing KotR while undoing Knight's looping wastelands thing. DRS is actually better at beating DnT than Goyf is, and that's the only remaining fair creature deck left. I'm not going to start quoting what DRS does, but it does a hell of a lot more than Goyf does, duh.
It seems like your still not getting what I'm saying. I'm not comparing Goyf to DRS. I'm comparing Goyf in Legacy in 2008 to DRS in Legacy in 2018.
Close enough, only since the start of 2012. Luckily, I can read about it. Goyf was in memefolk it was in countertop decks. It was still just a finisher and a beatstick. It didn't annihilate almost every other strategy by itself.
Reading about is apparently not enough, else we wouldn't continue to circle around the point I've made. Goyf most certainly did kill off many other archetypes, but it spawned a ton of new ones as well, just like DRS has done. Also understand that my position towards Goyf back then is the same as my position towards DRS now.
People would still say that a 1 mana 10/10 dies to plow/push/decay can be countered/chumped and they would also do my favourite legacy argument of which you have so kindly obliged me with;
My argument for why DRS is okay, and the 10/10 isn't, isn't because it dies to spot removal. My argument in favor of DRS is that even if you don't have an immediate answer for DRS, you don't just lose on the spot. A 10/10 ends the game in two swings if you don't have an answer.
Literally every deck that can accommodate a small splash to use DRS does so. Even Aggro-Loam with it's 4 maindeck chalices was playing 1 to Zenith for. What part of this is not format warping. Where Goyf was just a beater for the counter-top decks or the zoo decks, DRS just annihilates all opposing strategies whether you're a mana-denial deck or a Past in Flames deck or a Rite of Flame deck or a Life from the Loam deck or even a Lava Spike deck. Literally the only deck it doesn't really impact is Show and Tell. Context matters.
Many cards are format warping to an extent. People don't play 1cc artifact removal spells because one of the artifacts you would need to deal with is a Chalice for 1. When I use the term format warping, I don't mean that it has some sort of impact on deckbuilding decisions. I don't use it to mean ubiquitous either; just because many decks play the card doesn't mean it's format warping. Format warping means it enables an archetype that you either play, or you play an archetype that beats it. This isn't Flash; DRS has not created a rock/paper/scissors format.
Back you go to this false equivalency of banning vanilla creatures.
Maybe my point was unecessary to make since you didn't mention Grixis Delver being a reason to ban DRS in our current discussion, but I've seen your complaints about that in this thread before, so I made the point anyway. I also don't understand your fascination with the word vanilla, either, but whatever.
It would be a whole lot less boring. Underground Sea -> Deathrite every single game wooooh such an interesting format. Delver or Strix, Counterspells or Discard, True-Name Nemesis or Jace the Mind Sculptor. Wow, what a compelling format.
So your complaint is actually about the prevalence of blue in the format? Remove the word Deathrite from your paragraph and all I see is whining about blue cards. Do you think people will stop playing blue cards if DRS gets banned? The format is going to be the same pile of compelling. Basically, even after a DRS ban, you still wouldn't be happy and you'd be back in this thread loudly proclaiming for a ban on Brainstorm. Why not just focus on your primary issue with the format in the first place?
Fair blue decks are always going to be the best decks, but when the best fair blue deck is immune to almost everything because of 1 card, it disincentives players to bother. Goyf and Birds do not, have not and will not ever provide a deck with the same ridiculous power that DRS does. The card has been a plague for some time and is only getting worse as more and more people realise how OP the card is. Remember when the best thing to do with DRS was to play it in Punishing Jund? LOL
Fair blue decks are immune to almost everything explicitly because of DRS? That's a bold statement.
You're right, Goyf and Birds aren't as OP as DRS. The nature of power creep is that newer pushed creatures do tend to be more over the top than previous ones, sure. Not really sure what your point here was. Are you arguing that no new creatures will ever rival the power of DRS?
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
- Lands
- ANT
- LED Dredge
- RBg Reanimator
- Infect
- Turbo Depths
- Thresh
All disagree.
Not to be a complete asshat, but actually several Turbo Depths lists have played DRS in their lists, as recently as GP Madrid, alongside Dark Confidant to play a longer game that isn't as 'all-in'. I understand your point however, that the dtb as it stand does not use DRS, and I am in no way advocating a ban on DRS (or Gitaxian Probe, or any other card TBH.) I dislike True Name Nemesis the most, but it's still not ban-worthy if I follow my own advice. Do I wish Wild Nacatl was still playable? Hell yes! But the fact that it isn't does not make my unhappy, it just makes me dig for other options.
One of my favorite quotes (unsure of the source) is this: "Days go by slowly, years go by quickly." I think Legacy fits that bill pretty closely. It may seem drudging and uneventful when powerful strategies take their turn as DTB, but it eventually changes and the landscape a year from now will look different. I always appreciated the sentiment of 'wait for the format to adjust', as long as there has been a reasonable amount of time/events that have passed. I remember when Scepter/Chant required sideboard slots because it was the premier prison deck of the format.
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
taconaut
am actually not sure if a 1 mana 10/10 is more broken than DRS...it doesn't provide grave hate, it doesn't ramp you, it doesn't fix your mana, it might be harder to cast if it's monocolored, it might not have a relevant creature type, it still dies to swords and push, has no evasion, doesn't gain you life...it would certainly see play, but I don't know if it would beat the Deathrite decks.
I guess this was a clever hint at a 12/12 for 1 mana Phyrexian Dreadnought being unplayable while DRS is everywhere.
I am convinced the topic of the role of Tarmogoyf in old decks like Supreme Blue flies over the heads of the people who didn't play at the time and never saw the Goyf used as a board control element against aggro, which switches to killcon in the lategame. Goyf + Countertop was a deck able to beat combo AND aggro which was a major feat
-
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Angler is just a goyf with kicker, ban it!
