Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
Well it makes us (almost) immune to Wasteland decks, plus it allows us to deal with problem lands (Boseiju, Cavern, Port, Grove, Stage, Cloudpost, etc) without having to run Blood Moon.
Getting to three mana sorcery speed vs wasteland decks is difficult. Especially when that three-mana-play does nothing to help you survive pressure from Delvers/Thalia's etc. If you manage to resolve Crucible, your mana problems are already more or less solved, and you are in the mid game. I.e. it seems like a win-more card in those match-ups.
Miracles wants to have as many lands in play as possible, because our end-game spells (Top+Entreat especially) are really mana hungry. Repeatedly using your land drops on Crucible-recurred Wastelands seems counterproductive. (Except against decks that are even more mana hungry, of course, but that basically only includes 12post and MUD). Therefore the aggressive applications seem rather limited.
Repeated shuffle effects and guaranteed land drops (with fetches) are nice in grindy match-ups for sure, but I'm wondering if you wouldn't typically be better off resolving a Mentor in such situations?
Preliminary Thoughts on Predict
I've been trying out the newer builds of Miracles after being away from the deck for a while. I tried a few games with Predict, and of course the sample size is tiny so my experience is anecdotal at best, but I don't think I like it.
The problem is that I don't really want to cut anything else to make room. I have concluded that cutting Ponders for Predict is ridiculous. Thus, the decision for me was to either play maindeck Mentors (2 Mentors, 3 Terminus) or Predict (1-2 Predict, 4 Ponder, 4 Terminus).
The dilemma with the Predict version is that for me, Mentors basically take the place of 1 Terminus and 1 Entreat. If I'm not playing the Mentors, I want all 4 Terminus. I kind of want 2 Entreats in that case, but I suppose I could live with 1. The only thing I could shave is the maindeck Council's Judgment, and I don't want to shave that. Moving Judgment to the sideboard feels wrong, because Judgment is expensive all-purpose removal and I feel sideboard cards should be more narrow and efficient (I ask myself "what would I bring Judgment in against that I don't want main?" and I don't have a great answer other than maybe Liliana).
So, already I think I'm down to 1 Predict. Now, my main theoretical objection to the card is that while Predict may be very good in a few cases and pretty good in other cases, it's not very good by itself.
To really get value you need to know what the top card is. Otherwise, it's a 2 mana cantrip whose effect is worse than Thought Scour. In many of the scenarios in which you know what the top card is, you are already in an advantageous position (e.g. you have an active Top, or a Counterbalance). In other situations like Pondering and Brainstorming, you have to invest more mana to profit, meaning the card is weak in the early game. In the case of Brainstorm, ideally I'd be Brainstorming and fetching *after* a Predict, to apply better selection to the random cards I just drew. That is, when you have a Predict in hand and no active Top, you are tempted to play your other cantrips (especially Brainstorm) inefficiently in order to get value from the Predict. I don't like having to play my cantrips inefficiently.
Predict also seems like a card that if you want it in the main deck, you rarely want to side it out, making sideboarding a little harder.
Thus, overall, I'm not yet convinced the card advantage in the situations where it exists is really that much better than the alternatives. Nevertheless, I am receptive to the idea that it offers a good advantage in the mirror, where things go long and being a card up can make a big difference, but is it the best among alternatives? I'm not even sure I'd want it over, say, Keranos (which, please note, I am not currently playing).
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
matunos
The deck is already pretty immune to Wasteland decks given the number of basics it runs and its mainly 2-color requirements.
I think the delver wasteland decks like RUG Delver are typically happy to see you spend 3 mana (or more of you're playing around Daze) for something that doesn't directly affect the board. The decay ones will just destroy it if it's really a problem.
Use running basic lands as an argument to safeguard against RUG Delver is not enough.
RUG Delver's Mana Denial strategy is both Stifle and Wasteland in conjunction. Most people would agree in that, often when facing RUG Delver, you could have 4 lands in play at one point in the game, then only 1 at the subsequent turn. This is because some of those lands are fetches, they are not real. Hence, the focus's shifted as to how does one break fetch(s) safely, without being blown out by stifle? My response is that this might not be up to you. This depends on the board state, life total, ...etc. Say you're facing down multiple threats, against a Bolt deck like RUG Delver, you might or might have the time/turn to play around Stifle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
matunos
I've been trying out the newer builds of Miracles after being away from the deck for a while. I tried a few games with Predict, and of course the sample size is tiny so my experience is anecdotal at best, but I don't think I like it.
So, already I think I'm down to 1 Predict. Now, my main theoretical objection to the card is that while Predict may be very good in a few cases and pretty good in other cases, it's not very good by itself.
Long story short, Reid Duke has been running 1 Predict ever since 2014, if he believes it's good enough to have exactly one copy in his version, then I trust his assessment. I read all the arguments, including watching stream of Das, and tried predict miracles myself for a while, but I find video coverage(s) of Duke running one copy has been the most helpful and convincing evidence.
Re: Preliminary Thoughts on Predict
Quote:
Originally Posted by
matunos
I've been trying out the newer builds of Miracles after being away from the deck for a while. I tried a few games with Predict, and of course the sample size is tiny so my experience is anecdotal at best, but I don't think I like it.
The problem is that I don't really want to cut anything else to make room. I have concluded that cutting Ponders for Predict is ridiculous. Thus, the decision for me was to either play maindeck Mentors (2 Mentors, 3 Terminus) or Predict (1-2 Predict, 4 Ponder, 4 Terminus).
The dilemma with the Predict version is that for me, Mentors basically take the place of 1 Terminus and 1 Entreat. If I'm not playing the Mentors, I want all 4 Terminus. I kind of want 2 Entreats in that case, but I suppose I could live with 1. The only thing I could shave is the maindeck Council's Judgment, and I don't want to shave that. Moving Judgment to the sideboard feels wrong, because Judgment is expensive all-purpose removal and I feel sideboard cards should be more narrow and efficient (I ask myself "what would I bring Judgment in against that I don't want main?" and I don't have a great answer other than maybe Liliana).
So, already I think I'm down to 1 Predict. Now, my main theoretical objection to the card is that while Predict may be very good in a few cases and pretty good in other cases, it's not very good by itself.
To really get value you need to know what the top card is. Otherwise, it's a 2 mana cantrip whose effect is worse than Thought Scour. In many of the scenarios in which you know what the top card is, you are already in an advantageous position (e.g. you have an active Top, or a Counterbalance). In other situations like Pondering and Brainstorming, you have to invest more mana to profit, meaning the card is weak in the early game. In the case of Brainstorm, ideally I'd be Brainstorming and fetching *after* a Predict, to apply better selection to the random cards I just drew. That is, when you have a Predict in hand and no active Top, you are tempted to play your other cantrips (especially Brainstorm) inefficiently in order to get value from the Predict. I don't like having to play my cantrips inefficiently.
Predict also seems like a card that if you want it in the main deck, you rarely want to side it out, making sideboarding a little harder.
Thus, overall, I'm not yet convinced the card advantage in the situations where it exists is really that much better than the alternatives. Nevertheless, I am receptive to the idea that it offers a good advantage in the mirror, where things go long and being a card up can make a big difference, but is it the best among alternatives? I'm not even sure I'd want it over, say, Keranos (which, please note, I am not currently playing).
Have you tried the streamlined version that myself, AnziD (Anuraag Das), Mackan (Truckis on MODO) have been championing? It's built specifically to abuse the potential of what Predict can do for you, as well as streamlining the deck to the point where every card has a purpose. Just try a build that's designed to abuse it and I can guarantee you that you'll see the merits of it.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hi All,
What do you guys think of Kozilek's return?
http://static.starcitygames.com/sale...leksReturn.jpg
Instant Pyroclasm that helps us to counter the terrible 3cc spells and (overall) doesn't allow any kind of Protection from red to work (SoFI, Mother of Runes, ecc)
so bad? for 5 mana you can wrath eot from graveyard with Snapmage..
Re: Preliminary Thoughts on Predict
Quote:
Originally Posted by
matunos
I've been trying out the newer builds of Miracles after being away from the deck for a while. I tried a few games with Predict, and of course the sample size is tiny so my experience is anecdotal at best, but I don't think I like it.
The problem is that I don't really want to cut anything else to make room. I have concluded that cutting Ponders for Predict is ridiculous. Thus, the decision for me was to either play maindeck Mentors (2 Mentors, 3 Terminus) or Predict (1-2 Predict, 4 Ponder, 4 Terminus).
The dilemma with the Predict version is that for me, Mentors basically take the place of 1 Terminus and 1 Entreat. If I'm not playing the Mentors, I want all 4 Terminus. I kind of want 2 Entreats in that case, but I suppose I could live with 1. The only thing I could shave is the maindeck Council's Judgment, and I don't want to shave that. Moving Judgment to the sideboard feels wrong, because Judgment is expensive all-purpose removal and I feel sideboard cards should be more narrow and efficient (I ask myself "what would I bring Judgment in against that I don't want main?" and I don't have a great answer other than maybe Liliana).
So, already I think I'm down to 1 Predict. Now, my main theoretical objection to the card is that while Predict may be very good in a few cases and pretty good in other cases, it's not very good by itself.
To really get value you need to know what the top card is. Otherwise, it's a 2 mana cantrip whose effect is worse than Thought Scour. In many of the scenarios in which you know what the top card is, you are already in an advantageous position (e.g. you have an active Top, or a Counterbalance). In other situations like Pondering and Brainstorming, you have to invest more mana to profit, meaning the card is weak in the early game. In the case of Brainstorm, ideally I'd be Brainstorming and fetching *after* a Predict, to apply better selection to the random cards I just drew. That is, when you have a Predict in hand and no active Top, you are tempted to play your other cantrips (especially Brainstorm) inefficiently in order to get value from the Predict. I don't like having to play my cantrips inefficiently.
Predict also seems like a card that if you want it in the main deck, you rarely want to side it out, making sideboarding a little harder.
Thus, overall, I'm not yet convinced the card advantage in the situations where it exists is really that much better than the alternatives. Nevertheless, I am receptive to the idea that it offers a good advantage in the mirror, where things go long and being a card up can make a big difference, but is it the best among alternatives? I'm not even sure I'd want it over, say, Keranos (which, please note, I am not currently playing).
I think the biggest thing is that you can incidentally cast the card without trying, a lot of the time. The majority of Brainstorm and Ponders aren't even "good ones" where you get to crack a fetch after. There's only 8-10 fetches in the deck and Top has a way of eating those up quickly. This is assuming you don't have a Counterbalance or Top in play, which represent the 8 core cards of the deck. I'd even go so far as to say that one of the main bottlenecks of this deck is how you can't sift through your deck fast enough, and end up either Brainstorm locked or seeing one new card a turn, no different than if you had no Top to begin with. This is one of the reasons to run Ponder to begin with.
I'd consider dropping that Council's Judgment if you really want to make space. Maybe (likely) nobody is going to agree with this, but I don't like non-creature removal like Council's Judgment and Wear/Tear. If they Needle a Top in play, you flip it and Brainstorm it away half the time. It's not like you need the Top for Counterbalance anymore. I run Venser and a third Clique in the board, so Liliana is almost an entertaining card to play against. Council's Judgment seems like an answer to a question nobody's asking. I wonder what matchups it's better than Clique maindeck? There's basically nothing in Legacy but Liliana where Judgment doesn't trade down the curve, and it really looks like the worst card in the deck. I don't think I'd play this deck without 2 Cliques maindeck, but even a Predict seems better for the matchups where you want to cast Vindicate on permanents.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
So real quick on the whole "Predictable" Miracles thing, I haven't seen anyone post the synergy between Jace's +2 and being able to name a card on top of their library, Mill it, and then draw 2 cards...why not? This also slightly baffles me as to why you would lower the number of Jaces, although I can also hear your answer echoing back to me from the future "Predict creates card advantage - tage - tage..."
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
So real quick on the whole "Predictable" Miracles thing, I haven't seen anyone post the synergy between Jace's +2 and being able to name a card on top of their library, Mill it, and then draw 2 cards...why not? This also slightly baffles me as to why you would lower the number of Jaces, although I can also hear your answer echoing back to me from the future "Predict creates card advantage - tage - tage..."
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
You answered the question yourself =P
Also, 20 lands. Streamlining the deck, making our Jaces objectively more powerful than opposing ones because we're basically bulldozing through the deck. You'll also find yourself snapcastering back cantrips fairly often, for the same reason.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Poron
Hi All,
What do you guys think of Kozilek's return?
http://static.starcitygames.com/sale...leksReturn.jpg
Instant Pyroclasm that helps us to counter the terrible 3cc spells and (overall) doesn't allow any kind of Protection from red to work (SoFI, Mother of Runes, ecc)
so bad? It can do it's thing totally EOT with Snapmage..
It's certainly something to consider, but against DnT 4 mana for an instant speed board wipe is worse than a 3 mana flash blocker + infinite ping, though yes the Devoid is certainly relevant.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Sulfur Elemental is definitly the best card possible against DnT, but this kills your mentor strategy as well and to have a plan B sideboard can take too many spots..
I will give it a try in the Pyroclasm spot.
if only it was (3)...:eek:
Also, immagine it against Elves.
Natural Order for Behemot
Resp to trigger: Koz. Ret.
Behemot comes as a 6/6 and empty board
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Poron
Sulfur Elemental is definitly the best card possible against DnT, but this kills your mentor strategy as well and to have a plan B sideboard can take too many spots..
I will give it a try in the Pyroclasm spot.
if only it was (3)...:eek:
Also, immagine it against Elves.
Natural Order for Behemot
Resp to trigger: Koz. Ret.
Behemot comes as a 6/6 and empty board
A solution to Craterhoof Behemoth that is instant and works through Null Rod seems pretty good, but Elves is already a good matchup, AND the Behemoth is still left on the board. I'd prioritize tech for the D&T matchup.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I'm actually testing a predict miracle (Anzid list). I really like it a lot but my main issue is time. I test it on cockatrice and it's tight on the clock. I often have a winning board state but have to win with a billion attack of snapcaster. Should i play entreat just for clock purpose or train and play it really fast ?
I'd like to know, for the one playing it on MTGO, are you tight on clock ?
Same for IRL tournament. I'm afraid of slowplay, even non-intentional one.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gdtpara
I'm actually testing a predict miracle (Anzid list). I really like it a lot but my main issue is time. I test it on cockatrice and it's tight on the clock. I often have a winning board state but have to win with a billion attack of snapcaster. Should i play entreat just for clock purpose or train and play it really fast ?
I'd like to know, for the one playing it on MTGO, are you tight on clock ?
Same for IRL tournament. I'm afraid of slowplay, even non-intentional one.
Playing this variant is a lot easier on MTGO than in IRL because of the Chess Clock
We're in the process of testing various maindeck win conditions, stay tuned for testing results.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gdtpara
I'm actually testing a predict miracle (Anzid list). I really like it a lot but my main issue is time. I test it on cockatrice and it's tight on the clock. I often have a winning board state but have to win with a billion attack of snapcaster. Should i play entreat just for clock purpose or train and play it really fast ?
I'd like to know, for the one playing it on MTGO, are you tight on clock ?
Same for IRL tournament. I'm afraid of slowplay, even non-intentional one.
Thanks for testing it out! Yes, this list is /significantly/ more difficult to pilot w.r.t to time. However, in the past 50 matches I've played I haven't gone to time once, which leads me to believe that with proper practice, play, and deckbuilding, the clock should not be an issue.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
How do you guys beat merfolk or other Aether vial decks?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
raistlinim
How do you guys beat merfolk or other Aether vial decks?
That depends on whether they are playing a mana denial strategy or not.
Against Merfolk, I think I would board in Wear//Tear. It can deal with Vials, Spreading seas, and Top hate like Pithing Needle.
Terminus is clearly your best card. Mentor isn't great, as you can't expect to chump block reliably. If you have Mentor, prioritize Swords on Lords that grant island walk. They don't have much in the card advantage department, so you should have some chance to stall them with Sword -> Snapcaster -> Swords, and obv. Terminus until you can cast an Entreat.
Any Red blast effects are, of course, excellent.
Death & Taxes is completely different because of Ports and Wastelands.
Wear//Tear is still great as it can take out equipment, Revokers, and Vials.
The difficult part is developing your mana, but this should be the highest priority. Port and Wastelands can make it difficult to miracle Terminus in your draw step, and Top is important for that reason.
Don't worry too much about Mom, as Terminus will take care of everything if you manage to cast it. Revoker and Thalia are actually the most annoying Threats.
Izzet Staticaster or even Sulphur Elemental are great. Mentor is excellent. FoW is not great so could be boarded out in some numbers, but beware of Cataclysm in the late game!
I will likely FoW a turn 1 Vial, especially if I have the CB/T lock in my sights, but don't panic because of Vials. You can still Terminus and Swords-Snap-Swords. The only source of Card Advantage in their deck is Stoneforge Mystic, so you should win the long game.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ozimek
That depends on whether they are playing a mana denial strategy or not.
Against Merfolk, I think I would board in Wear//Tear. It can deal with Vials, Spreading seas, and Top hate like Pithing Needle.
Terminus is clearly your best card. Mentor isn't great, as you can't expect to chump block reliably. If you have Mentor, prioritize Swords on Lords that grant island walk. They don't have much in the card advantage department, so you should have some chance to stall them with Sword -> Snapcaster -> Swords, and obv. Terminus until you can cast an Entreat.
Any Red blast effects are, of course, excellent.
Death & Taxes is completely different because of Ports and Wastelands.
Wear//Tear is still great as it can take out equipment, Revokers, and Vials.
The difficult part is developing your mana, but this should be the highest priority. Port and Wastelands can make it difficult to miracle Terminus in your draw step, and Top is important for that reason.
Don't worry too much about Mom, as Terminus will take care of everything if you manage to cast it. Revoker and Thalia are actually the most annoying Threats.
Izzet Staticaster or even Sulphur Elemental are great. Mentor is excellent. FoW is not great so could be boarded out in some numbers, but beware of Cataclysm in the late game!
I will likely FoW a turn 1 Vial, especially if I have the CB/T lock in my sights, but don't panic because of Vials. You can still Terminus and Swords-Snap-Swords. The only source of Card Advantage in their deck is Stoneforge Mystic, so you should win the long game.
I agree with most of the above. Just want to add that Merfolk often plays Chalice of the Void which is a big problem as it shuts down our best cards (swords, reb and brainstorm). The matchup is slightly unfavored. Mentor is kinda bad because of Chalice and because they can race it due to islandwalk. Stoneforge+Batterskull is much better.
DnT is a lot tricker but favored once you get the hang of it. Fetch basics, kill their guys and play around Cataclysm. Do NOT keep CB in postboard, it's unreliable because of vial and their revoker/needle on top.
Since we side CB out (yes it's correct) we are not a huge favorite in the lategame except for a big ETA.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mackan
I agree with most of the above. Just want to add that Merfolk often plays Chalice of the Void which is a big problem as it shuts down our best cards (swords, reb and brainstorm). The matchup is slightly unfavored. Mentor is kinda bad because of Chalice and because they can race it due to islandwalk. Stoneforge+Batterskull is much better.
DnT is a lot tricker but favored once you get the hang of it. Fetch basics, kill their guys and play around Cataclysm. Do NOT keep CB in postboard, it's unreliable because of vial and their revoker/needle on top.
Since we side CB out (yes it's correct) we are not a huge favorite in the lategame except for a big ETA.
Agreed. Chalice can be a pain. I've played little from the Miracles side but tons from the other sides since i like a lot the Vial decks, and I feel that the only one where you will really be at a disadvantage is vs Goblins, because Ringleader and Matrons create too much card advantage
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I apologize, I was referring to the predict version of the deck. I imagine without EtA that merfolk, chalice, and D&T, Mana denial, would be tough matchups. I like the predicts in testing just wondering what the game plan is.
