[Deck] Goblins

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Originally Posted by seilaquem

the worst MU is omni, even w/ Winstigator.
it has a good MU against miracles (if you play it right), and most control-oriented decks.
elves is hard, unless you play pyrokinesis

It is not common, but the sliver MU is pretty hard too. I haven`t figured out how to beat it.

hope I could help you.

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Apart from Miracles (which isn't as favored as it used to be) and Stoneblade type decks, the deck has no super good matchups thanks to DTT.
Elves can beat you through pyrokinesis quite easily (assuming you even draw it at some point), the Grixis decks tear you hand apart with Cabal Therapy + Young Peezy, whilst killing you with either tokens, gurmag angler or both, and as for the combo decks... lol.

Goblins is very even-good against a lot of fair decks, but I imagine that my win percentage against them is high because of a: my experience with Goblins and b: my opponents inexperience against Goblins . That said, I haven't really played Goblins seriously since DTT became ubiquitous so I imagine my win percentages against those decks wouldn't be the 85%+ that it was.

Death and Taxes pretty much says "anything you can do, I can do better" to Goblins. If you're not playing Recruiter-Taxes, save your money and buy Imperial Recruiters instead of buying into a deck that whilst super awesome and fun to play, is just really bad against the vast-majority of the top decks right now.

If DTT goes away, I think the deck goes back to being a Tier 2-3 deck. If we get recruiter we become tier 1.5 overnight. As for now... we're like tier 500.

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Originally Posted by neddsaurus

Hi all. Normally play dnt but want to build another deck. Love goblins so here I am. Anyone able to tell me some of the best and worst matchups?

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Goblins has favorable MUs against Miracles , Stoneblade , D&T and BUG (Shardless and BUG Delver).
Unfavorable MUs are reanimator, storm combo decks and Elves.
The rest is pretty even and depends on the version you are using (the one with Chrome Mox + Warren Instigator or the one with Rishadan Port and Mogg War Marshal) as well as on your SB cards.

Although it might seems like an obvious step for you to take, I highly recommend against playing Rishadan Ports in Goblins. The deck is different from D&T in Terms of mana Costs and taxing and this makes Rishadan Port a lot less attractive. The Focus of your manabase should be to resolve you own spells, which is why I would start from a mono red manabase with 23 mana sources without Rishadan port.

Steve : we all know goblins is not an extremely good deck right now, your opinions may or may not be correct (i think you are way too drastic in dismissing this deck), but anyway is totally pointless to answer "save money an build another deck" to someone who said "i love goblins so here i am".

Re: favorable vs unfavorable MUs

I think we don't have many favorable MUs in the meta, and we have some very unfavorable MUs too. So there's not much upside to playing Goblins and more downside if you're just trying to top 8 a large event.

Our best MU has always been Merfolk, and they're not around anymore.

Our worst MU has always been combo, and there are 2 combo decks in the DTB this month (OmniTell and ANT) that play very differently and respond very differently to hate.

Our mediocre MUs are still bad for us, because decks like BUG, Rug, and DnT still have more ways to blow us out than we have ways to blow them out.

Plus we're running 22 lands in an 18 land format, giving other decks a card quality CA.

Another detriment that I dont see going away is the lack of interactive goblins that aren't either too narrow or too expensive. Because we're tribal we need synergies, and WotC just won't print Gobbos that interact with Legacy in a meaningful way. And I'm not just talking about a shatter-on-a-stick goblin. There is no goblin that meaningfully interacts with the GY to counter Delve. There is no goblin with tax effects that could exploit the egregiously greedy mana bases. And there is no goblin truly big enough to make the deck really go all-in on Lackey connecting.

There are just too many angles to cover in Legacy without playing FoW and BS as catch-alls. Then you go and limit your card pool to one tribe and it gets pretty rough, especially when the power level of your synergies is not keeping up with the inflation level of the format.

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Our best MU has always been Merfolk, and they're not around anymore.

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One made top 8 in Eternal Weekend and two made top 8 at Somerset IQ. Chalice of the Void is really doing a ton of work against the format. But yeah, it not like it was four years ago.

I agree everything you said though. On top of that, I think another issue with this deck is given to the overall power level of Legacy right now, Matron should cost 2CMC and Ringleader should cost 3CMC. These are arguably our most powerful cards too.

We could also just use another ridiculously overpowered 1-drop. We've only got 8. Grixis Delver has like 24. I say reprint Watchief as a 1-drop. Too bad they haven't spoiled any goblins yet this set. Subterranean Scout and Piledriver made me so hopeful.

I was in a tournament last saturday, and won first place. That would have been good, if not for the fact you were only 8 :rolleyes:
There was a modern event the same day, so everybody went there instead...

Either ways:

Round 1: vs Olivier (A modern Abzan deck with some modifications, it was his first Legacy tournament)
Game 1: I had to mull to 5, and lost because the lack of fuel: I vialed a Ringleader into... 4 lands... And I was mana screwed... Welp.
Game 2: Turn 3 win: T1: Lackey, T2: Lackey into Kiki, cast Piledriver, EoT copy the piledriver, T3: Copy another piledriver and attack for 22.
Game 3: Nothing to say, he Duress me (lol), and I just grind my way through the creatures he cast, I have quite a hard time since I drew only one Ringleader and was almost out of fuel, but a S.Scout making a Piledriver pass through is really nice.

Round 2: vs Martin ("Classic" Miracles)
Game 1: I won, but damn, it was a long game... I've put into play Ringleader 9 times, since he Terminused me 5 times (once via Snapcaster), but i always got a matron with the Ringleader, so the moment he Terminuses me, I just play another Matron to fetch a Ringleader... It was quite funny actually :tongue:
Game 2: I comboed out (Kiki+Lighning Crafter+Prospector). Fun fact: He tried to counter the Prospector (no cavern) with Top+Counterbalance, by tapping the Top to put it on top of his library. I had a vial @4 and a Scrapper in hand... Oops, no more Top, and he hadn't another 1CMC spell in the top 3 cards :tongue:

Round 3: vs André (Mentor Miracles with red splash)
We decided to draw, since there was a top-2, and if we did we were assured to play the top 2, so...

Finale: vs André
Round 1: Mulliganed to 6, and I had him over the time.
Round 2: Fuck Mentor. He survived by StP his own mentor when I attacked him for lethal and blocking my 7 goblins with his 5 tokens... He was @ 1 life after that, and I had nothing left... Damnit.
Round 3: I won with the SGC, as he was @ 4 life and I had a Matron in play and 4 mana. He tried to StP the SGC, but I just sacrificed it... Note: I survived Jace's ultimate, as the only card I had in hands was SGC (so I drew him next turn) and a vial @4 whom I increased to 5... He was so mad :laugh:


My list:
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Ringleader
3x Goblin Chieftain
1x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Matron
4x Aether Vial
2x Goblin Piledriver
2x Tarfire
2x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Ligthning Crafter
1x Stingscourger
1x Skirk Prospector
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Tin-Street Hooligan
3x Talia, Guardian of Thraben
2x subterranean scout
1x Goblin Settler

Lands:
6x (Fetches)
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Wasteland
3x Plateau
4x Mountain
1x Taiga

Sideboard
3x Chalice of the Void
2x Rest In Peace
3x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Wear//Tear
2x Pyrokinesis
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Tuktuk Scrapper
1x Legion Loyalist




Afterthoughts:
*The combo is nice, when you're on long grindy games, so you could have a way out of the lock, and the pieces are useful nonetheless.
*The S.Scout is really nice to go through early blockers for Lackey or late blockers for Piledriver. He also funny with Kiki.
*While Talia is useful... she's not that useful against Miracles... They just StP her, or counter her if you don't Vial her in or if you don't set a Cavern on human (making the land virtually useless afterwards). I'll see in the next tournament, where I hope there'll be more players... I may try the Winstigator version if the RW splash doesn't play well.
*The Loyalist is nice again against the Mentor-tokens, the Angel-tokens or any other token. It is useful too against blockers w/ Piledriver (but that didn't saw play in this tournament)
*Lighning Crafter is quite nice all-around, even outside of the combo, as it puts a clock they have to deal with, and deals with a lot of stuff.


I really hope they give us another good goblin soon... S.Scout is nice, but at the same time they got a shitload of things in the Khans block, so...
Speaking of which, I'm really pissed at the new Ulamog... MUD, 12 Posts and other similar decks are somewhat played here, and I don't want to see that fucker...

How come fish run chalice and gobs dont?

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Originally Posted by neddsaurus

How come fish run chalice and gobs dont?

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Lots of lists run Chalice in the sideboard. Mainboard, I don't think we have enough place to have it thought, since we are so tight on deck space...

Because fish is a tempo deck that relies on free disruption like Daze and Force of Will to free the path to stomp their opponents, or prevent their opponents to disrupt their strategy. I can't think of any card more free than Chalice of the Void after resolution. Though, to be honest, main decking Chalice of the Void in Goblins may not be a bad idea.

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Originally Posted by neddsaurus

How come fish run chalice and gobs dont?

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They used to run Daze which became worse as the curve got lower. Merfolk playing a bunch of 2 drops loses to Delver decks when it's behind on mana. Also it's harder to play T1 Daze when you're running Cavern of Souls. Chalice fulfills the same role without running into mana issues. It's just a bit slower, but much better in the late game.

There was a Goblin list with MD Chalice that did well at the Japanese GP this year. But having a counterspell strategy in Gobbos is just less reliable since we don't have FoW.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Although it might seems like an obvious step for you to take, I highly recommend against playing Rishadan Ports in Goblins. The deck is different from D&T in Terms of mana Costs and taxing and this makes Rishadan Port a lot less attractive. The Focus of your manabase should be to resolve you own spells, which is why I would start from a mono red manabase with 23 mana sources without Rishadan port.

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The deck that won a GPT at Lille and went 7-1 on day 1 had 4 ports and 3 war marshalls. You can say he got lucky and how you got unlucky, but they're pretty consistent performances and I'm betting he Rishadan Ported someone at least once. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Goblins on a stream?

http://www.twitch.tv/readytoplaytc

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

Goblins on a stream?

http://www.twitch.tv/readytoplaytc

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Yeah, that was me. I didn't draw a real threat in either of the games. I went back and watched some it, and I may have made some different plays, but overall I just had some really sucky draws.

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Originally Posted by Diotram

Yeah, that was me. I didn't draw a real threat in either of the games. I went back and watched some it, and I may have made some different plays, but overall I just had some really sucky draws.

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Yeah you did! No Ringleader/Matron either game really killed you since CA is critical in the Maverick MU. But you've gotta play the cards you draw, right?

Just got back from the first tourney I've been to in a while. I won it. Went 4-0 in matches, 8-0 in games! It was a pretty good night.

The list!

4 Lackey
4 Vial
4 Piledriver
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader

3 Tarfire
2 Gempalm
2 Stingscourger
2 Skirk Prospector
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Kiki Jiki
1 Krenko
1 Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk

4 Waste
4 Cavern
13 Mountain
1 Chrome Mox (cuz, why not? You'll never get screwed running multiples if you only run 1, right?)

SB
4 Trinisphere
1 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Blood Moon
2 Pyrokinesis

I was thinking about how our core is 24 cards, then we need 22 lands, leaving us with 14 flex spots. I like running around 8 pieces of removal, so that leaves me with 6 spots left after that. We happen to have two 3-card combos that could fill that spot: Kiki-Lightning Crafter-Skirk Prospector, and Krenko-Sharpshooter-Prospector. So, I just put those six cards in! I wasn't worried about running 2 Skirk Prospector because they're good cards that are decent in the fair matchups, are accelerators in combo matchups, and they have some weird ancillary benefits (like sacking to avoid Jitte counters, etc.). Then I cut Port to make the manabase more stable.

R1 RUG Delver
G1 He was on the play. Played Volcanic. I played Lackey and passed. He bolted. He played Brainstorm in his 2nd turn and missed his land drop. I Wasted and won from there without taking any damage that game.
G2 i sided in Chalice, not knowing what Delver variant he was on. It could have been anything from how little I saw in G1. He played a T1 Delver and started beating me down with it. I played a Vial. I cast Chalice which he Spell Pierced. He followed up with a Goyf. I ate some Delver hits while Vial ticked up. I Vialed in a Stingscourger to bounce the Bug and chump the Goyf one turn. Then I established board position and burned off a Goyf with Gempalm. I also baited out a Stifel with Vial activations. Once I killed Goyf he didn't have enough firepower to finish the job and I just cruised to the win.
1-0

R2 Death and Taxes (BW version)
G1 This was a hell of a grind. I had a super slow opening with Vial and Stingscourger, but he had double Mom and Vial which really put a damper on my plans. I took batterskull beats for a while and assembled Sharpshooter + Skirk. Matron fetched Tuktuk to blow up batterskull at some point. I was able to clear his board after letting him beat me down to 5 life, then I cast Kiki and Lightning Crafter and comboed him out.
G2 I kept an opening hand of Vial, Skirk, Stingscourger, Stingscourger Mountain, Mountain, Waste. I was worried about it since it had no CA, but it was probably better than any mulligan and also could stall for quite a while. My opponent mulled to 5 so it was a non-issue, and I made sure to put on a quick clock to capitalize on it. I kept Vial at 2 so I could bounce anything he tried to play. His only real shot was getting equipment online, so I wanted him to commit to playing a creature + equipment + equipping so I could make him expend his resources inefficiently. It turned out to be a moot point since I put on a pretty quick clock thanks to good draws, but it was still a good gameplan.
2-0

R3 Mono-G 12-Post
G1 I had a very quick kill and he did not have the Chasm to stop me. It was a T4 kill but could have been T3 had a led with Lackey instead of Vial. I knew he was playing a somewhat control-ish deck, so that would have been the better line. But I lead with Vial because I had Lackey, Piledriver, Matron and I'm a sucker for a Vial curve. I drew a second lackey so t3 I attacked with 2 Lackey and put in Matron into Kiki then cast Piledriver for the W (Kiki copy Piledirver in opponent's end step, copy Piledriver in my turn, attack with three Drivers for a bajillion).
G2 I put on a clock with Piledriver and he played Needle on Wasteland and Glacial Chasm. I had Blood Moon in hand which I cast off Skirk Prospector to nullify the Chasm. That also prevented him from mounting any further offense and I took it down with Piledriver beats.
3-0

R4 Patriot Delver
G1 we both mulled to 6. This game was, again, super grindy, but I had 3 Vials in play and stabilized at 8 life. Stingscourger helped reset his Delver and chump block, and Sharpshooter batted cleanup. Once I got ahead on the board he didn't really have a chance to come back. Gempalm burned out Pyromancer. I played super conservatively knowing that if I stayed ahead he couldn't win, so I didn't put myself in any positions to let him outplay me. Sharpshooter was a fucking house this game. He did so much work, again, with Skirk. I got Krenko online in the late game but only played it after playing all the Ringleaders from my hand. I wanted his burn to be spent on other creatures so Krenko could come in and close out the game (the relief pitcher for those of you familiar with baseball). It worked! My opponent had to blow his wad Digging Through Time and Brainstorming to find a Swords for Krenko, but Krenko still got one solid activation for 4 Goblins and he couldn't beat that.
G2 My opponent mulled to 4 (no lands, only playing 19). My 7 was pretty good, and I just ran him over while he tried to find a Pyroclasm.
4-0

I dodged combo pretty hard today and only had to play against grindy matchups which I could outgrind. So everything worked out very well. It was fun getting to combo off with Kiki, Crafter and Skirk. I did not get mana screwed at all and running 2 Skirk really helped in 3 matches (activating combo and sharpshooter R2, casting Blood Moon R3, and activating Sharpshooter R4). The synergies really worked nicely. Every card in my deck did what it was supposed to at some point today. I played tight, the cards were good to me, and I didn't have to mull too often. 8 good games from that.

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

I dodged combo pretty hard today.

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Where the hell were you playing??? Last 3 times I've played legacy in the Twin Cities I have been bringing MUD because everyone is playing combo or omnitell.

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Originally Posted by potatodavid

Where the hell were you playing??? Last 3 times I've played legacy in the Twin Cities I have been bringing MUD because everyone is playing combo or omnitell.

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Hi Score in North St Paul. They run Legacy on Thursday nights. 12 players showed. I've been itching to play so I checked the Twin Cities Competitive Legacy facebook page and people had been posting that their Thursday night weekly has been thriving. I used to go to Monster Den weeklies on Thursdays and occasionally Dreamers Saturday weeklies. The Dreamers ones were always pretty small and often didn't fire. The Den's were great but started dropping off, then they gave up once Mead Hall opened. I learned from the facebook group that the Den (or Dreamers, whatever the new location is calling itself on the super-cheap banner hung over the door) is trying to get a Friday night legacy going. That is awesome for me since it's right down the street from my house, but not awesome since I'm married now and generally want to spend Friday nights after a long work week unwinding with my wife (awesome alliteration, Watry), not nerding with nerds.

Anywho, the point is that facebook group is one hell of a resource for finding tournaments. I highly recommend any Sourcers that live in large metros to get their own groups formed. Bring in store owners and employees. Let them create events in the group so players can see when large events are scheduled. And update the group descriptions with stores running weeklies.

Jrw good run! Gratz, thx for report

Got hit with a case of the 0-2 Drops today! Exact same decklist as last time.
R1 Burn
G1 I kept a slow hand without a 1 drop but it would be good against the midrange and control decks of the format. I got Burned out instead. :( Swiftspear and 2x Lavamancers sealed the deal.
G2 I kept an opening hand with 2x Lackey and Mountain and Chrome Mox. Played 2 Lackeys T1. Opponent played Swiftspear. I Gempalmed the Swiftspear T2 and topdecked Ringleader T2 and steamrolled through this game for the W.
G3 I kept a hand with Tarfires and Pyrokinesis and Vial and just hoped he was on the creature plan this game. He wasn't. Got bolted to the dome and couldn't get back in it. Lost that one, but the hand I kept was still decently positioned; my opponent just had a different gameplan that game.

R2 ANT
G1 lost
G2 kept a hand of 3 lands, Surgical, and Trinisphere. Lost T2.