Miracle Control

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1) You don't play 4 swords, 4 terminus, 4 snapcaster as well as mentor. If your main plan is mentor as wincon, you usually go for 3 terminus. 4 Snapcaster is usually only played in the Predict lists which, to be fair, is likely very strong on modo, due to a pretty grindy metagame, as well as an overall preference towards blue decks.

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Well, im not responsible for whatever you put into your deck.

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2) I even said "Sure, you draw godlike and your opponent draws poop, you are going to win". You all tend to think that you have it all, every game. You don't. You don't always have an active top, a stable manabase (you draw 2 tundras and 1 arid mesa, they draw 2 wasteland) and your manabase is shit then.

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Im talking about normal hands vs a non vial dnt, not nuts or anything. Your point is meaningless, sure if you draw 0 lands and mull to 0 you are going to lose to a starter pack. We all know this, its magic. You are in fact using the logic you are attacking, its kind of weird.

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Miracles is a GRIND, and as soon as you don't recognize that, you're seriously setting yourself up for failure. DnT is in no way a really good matchup. It can obviously be excellent, if you get a staple manabase, you get to shut off their vial, you get to get them hellbent ie. That's not really true just for the DnT matchup. That's also true for every single other matchup. Miracles is obviously favored in the late-game, that's true for most of the format. Stating that you reach this point by default is just...

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Im stating that you reach this state by default if they don't have vial, yes.

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*Regarding "You're unfamiliar with the matchup and just spouting shit: They have 0 things against Jace." They have Cataclysm, 4 Revoker, Sword of Fire and Ice (which is always the equipment they go for. They don't ever go for batterskull or Jitte). They have 4 Thalia, 4 Wasteland, 4 Rishidan Port, x (usually 3) Pegasus. Jace is awful in this matchup.

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Jace is good in this matchup, once it lands you can bounce a threat and after that its very hard for them to kill him (once again, if they don't have vial). You usually can't do that by turn 4, ok, don't mean its awful. Counterbalance is the only awful card imo.

Miracles vs D+T is a pretty 50-50 matchup and I would put my money on the more experienced player, or whoever has a more stacked SB for the matchup. I think Miracles has a slightly worse game 1, especially if you don't know that your opponent is on D+T as Miracles has a lot dead cards G1 when D+T lands a T1 Vial. FoWing that Vial just so you can FoW again is a pretty bad way to win an attrition matchup. D+T also is more likely to keep a hand in the blind that is very good against Miracles (Vial, Mom, Thalia, Revoker, Pegasus, etc.) than Miracles is to keep a hand in the blind that is very good against D+T.

G2/G3, Miracles has generally better SB cards and is more likely to draw them as the blue deck and they don't have to draw into a bunch of dead Counterbalances. But they also don't have any sideboard cards that are as as strong as Dread of Night or Massacre. Staticaster, Mentor, Priest, Elemental can all be STP'd and don't allow you to Terminus.

If you think it's an easy match then you're probably just playing bad players. Nobody who plays D+T w/ any experience thinks Miracles is on the list of truly terrible matchups, but it's also not a bye.

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Originally Posted by klaus

@ Minniehajj:

Stop trying to make Predict happen..
http://www.acrossnowhere.net/wp-cont...me-624x200.jpg
..It's not going to happen

I've been testing 2 Predicts in 2013 quite a bit and was majorly disappointed. As a matter of fact, it didn't meet my expectations every single time I drew it. And no, Monastery Mentor doesn't justify its inclusion.

On a different note I'd recommend running at least 1 non-creature removal spell along the lines of CJ, EE. You don't want to get blown out of the water by Chalice / Lili / Vial and the likes.

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You provide an opinion but your argumentation is lacking. Please enlighten us! I also played Predict back in 2013 and I was not majorly disappointed. I don't see what mentor has anything to do with that.

A catch-all has been discussed earlier and it would be a nice inclusion in the sideboard. CJ is not optimal due to it's casting cost of double white though. What would you cut to make room for i.e EE?

@FoW on Vial

You are two for one'ing yourself to stop a card that does 0 damage to you on its own...in order to keep other cards that are still bad in the match-up live.

It is not always the wrong choice, but it is not playing the game you want to play in an attrition match-up.

incorrect. With Vial in play port and wasteland become a big problem as well as flickerwisp, cataclysm, thalia+karakas and more.

Yes, Vial is a great card and sometimes you'll be in a spot where you can't beat it and probably have to FoW, especially game 1 when you have no ways to touch the card if it resolves. I'm not saying it's not good against Miracles, it's pretty clearly one of the best cards against Miracles. I'm just saying the fact that you do sometimes two for one yourself to stop a card that doesn't even do damage to you is one of the reasons why this matchup is not actually a blowout in one direction or another.

Death and Taxes again, is it?

Well, it's a quite controversial match-up, no question about it. Funnily enough, many Miracle pilots that have just as much experience as I have disagree quite fiercly on this match-up. So it's not just this thread that is troubling to find a consensus. I'd argue that the fundamental problem lies in the pilots themselves, which can make this match-up from seeming an auto-win vs mono colored creatures to unwinable. In order to not having to type it all out again and again I did some digging and summarized some old posts I made about Death and Taxes.



StarCityGames wasn't interested in part 4 of my Miracle primer back in 2014, so here's the part that is focused on Death and Taxes.

The next deck I want to touch upon is something very special. It’s commonly known as Death and Taxes. This deck has some sweet history and one of the most unique and sticky names in Legacys history. It refers to a quote by Benjamin Franklin saying:” ...but in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes.” Even though Death and Taxes might look like a White Wheenie deck at first glance it’s way more than that. It utilizes taxing effects such as Thalia, Guardian of Thraben in combination with mana denial just as Wasteland and Rishadan port to suppress any acts of free will by forcing the opponent to pay the overdue taxes. The next step is the attempt to achieve death at the opponent’s side by attacking with the tax collectors.

Punting aside, Death and Taxes is proactive Controldeck that consists of creatures. Strange, isn’t it? Additionally, it doesn’t even play blue, in fact it doesn’t splash a single color to its base color white. How and why does this work? Despite the fact that I cannot give you an exact breakdown why this deck is good I’ll give my best to get across the general idea of this deck before delving into how to break this very strategy from the Miracles side.

To clarify what we are talking about it might be a good idea to look at the deck Thomas Enevoldsen used to win GP Strasbourg with, with another, nearly identical, list in the Top4 that was piloted by his friend Michael Bonde.

9 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Mangara of Corondor
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Fiend Hunter
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Cataclysm
2 Rest in Peace
1 Gut Shot
1 Sunlance
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Oblivion Ring

Even though it’s been a while since GP Strasbourg happened this list still stands as an example of what Death and Taxes was, is and will be for the time being. The core of this deck isn’t about to change, even though True-Name Nemesis has forced the deck to adapt a little by playing more flying creatures and adding Sword of Fire and Ice to their deck, but as said above, the underlying concept won’t change. The first element of Death and Taxes that is important to us is how their land base is built. It integrates a high amount of disruptive cards just as Wasteland and Rishadan Port but also a fair number of Karakas’ which can be incredibly tough to deal with, especially if it’s paired up with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. As Death and Taxes doesn’t have threats that are as cheap as Delver of Secrets, how can it utilize the tempo-advantage of mana denial, you might ask? Well, they might not have Delver, but they have Aether Vial which allows them to keep putting creatures on the board without having to stop with their land-shenanigans. Their creatures are protected by Mother of Runes, our permanents are threatened by recurring Mangara or Corondor (with the help of Karakas or Flickerwisp, most of the time in conjunction with Aether Vial) all while they tax our spells with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and threaten to kill us efficient beaters just as Mirran Crusader, Serra Avenger or Batterskull.

The challenge in playing Death and Taxes is finding the sweet spot between applying pressure, deploying disruptive creatures and utilizing the lands to do something else than tapping for mana. Aether Vial somewhat mitigates this task by allowing them to play creatures for free, but it also opens up countless opportunities when it comes to toying around with Aether Vial and cards just as Flickerwisp or Aven Mindcensor. ,
I hope I could give you a quick glimpse at how this deck operates, but let’s not get to the part as how the match between Death and Taxes and Miracles play out and which lines of play you might want to avoid.

Wasteland and Rishadan Port are, as mentioned above, cards that alter the way a game plays out. Their absence or abundance make the difference whether the game plays out like a typical match against an Aether Vial based Aggrodeck or if it looks like a slow duel of controlling decks. There are games where going all-in on Basic Lands is the right way, and this is the majority. But you shouldn’t just stick to a stigma as hieratic as this as there are games where going for Dual lands is correct. Those games are characterized by the absence of Wasteland and several Rishadan Port showing up and are also often dictated by your opening hand, which could consist of Duals and Fetches only. Should they have no option to hinder the development of Miracles in a significant way by utilizing their lands in conjunction with Thalia or Mindcensor then this match-up plays out surprisingly straightforwardly. You remove their creatures until you can cast Entreat the Angels, sounds easy enough, right?
Well, not really as it’s a very rare occurrence to play against Death and Taxes and not play against mana denial, as it’s an integral part of their deck, so I wouldn’t count on the one out of ten games where you can play this match-up just like any traditional aggro-vs-control-match. Now let’s look at how most games develop. We first have to sub-divide this very approach into the Aether Vial and Non-Aether Vial games. As you might have guessed, the value of cards like Counterbalance varies wildly between these two separated ways of how this match-up can play out. It is without any doubt to say that the match-up gets a lot easier when there is no Aether Vial in the game. But once again, you will not need any advice on how to play against MonoW then, right?

So let’s talk about the tough games, where they have access to Aether Vial and at least one piece of disruptive land also known as the real games. The first and very basic question when they place their Vial on the stack is: “Do you have Force of Will and a blue card in your hand?” – If yes, cast it. It’s just as simple, there is no reason to not cast the free Counterspell in the preboarded games against Death and Taxes as Aether Vial will not only turn off the entirety of the game, it will also accelerate the opponent a fair bit while also providing them with flashy creatures that disable linear planning and complicate everything. The existence or the absence of Aether Vial dictate the pace at which the game will play out, and naturally, you’d rather have it the slow way, enabling your Sensei’s Divining Tops to pull you ahead significantly in card selection.

Counterbalance is one of the most inconsistent cards, as mentioned above. Without Aether Vial and with an empty board this card will break Death and Taxes in half. In pretty much any other scenario, not so much. So let me illuminate you how to evaluate Counterbalance in this very match-up. The card is crap. It’s as simple as it gets. Yes the card can be good and backbreaking, but so could Vendilion Clique when it comes to dealing with Spirit of Labyrinth. But these scenarios are overly constructed and do no depict the reality as it stands. You will hardly be able to set up Counterbalance properly while getting rid of Aether Vial and prohibiting them from playing Cavern of Souls, however this might be possible.

The next card that is somewhat controversial when it comes to dealing with MonoW is Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Many people claim that he is bad, backing up said claim with arguments just as pointing out that it is very hard to achieve 2UU when playing against Wasteland, Rishadan Port and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. All of this is correct, but the upsides of Jace, the Mind Sculptor outweigh those drawbacks. A quick sidenote here, much of what I wrote before was easily transferable to other types of Miracles, but what I am now saying about Jace, the Mind Sculptor is exclusive to versions with the full playset of Swords to Plowshares. Even though Jace may die when your opponent uses Aether Vial at the end of your turn you still have Swords to Plowshares to take care of that, which kind of mitigates this foreseeable threat. You don’t have to cast him turn 4, the game will go significantly longer. He might not be the most mana-effective spell you cast all game long, but his impact justifies his inclusion in the postboarded games, and I don’t think I have to tell you any more when it comes to Jace on an empty board, do I?
So after having dealt with the two biggest misconceptions that are Counterbalance and Jace, the Mind Sculptor let’s continue at looking how the match-up will shape up, shall we? They have two very potent late-game threats. The first one is Mangara of Corondor with Karakas which will finalize their disruption plan and leave us with very little time to find a removal spell or Entreat the Angels. I would suggest to always have at least two pieces of removal at the ready when it comes to dealing with Mangara due to one very simple fact that I havn’t really touched upon, yet: Flickerwisp. Should you be feeling safe to target Mangara with your piece of removal as soon as they target it with their Karakas in response to Mangaras ability you could very well run into Flickerwisps trap, delaying them a little, but nothing more. Getting rid of Aether Vial in advance makes dealing with Mangara a lot easier, though. Flickerwisp is a very unpredictable and devastating threat, especially with Aether Vial. Try to not be dead on board to a Flickerwisp that enters the battlefield end of turn, exiling one permanent of yours, if you can help it.

The second late-game threat is different. It’s Sword of Fire and Ice which turns any of their threats into a real threat. You cannot block it with any of your blue creautres, you cannot bounce it with your Jace, the Mind Sculptor and it kills you way faster than you’d like to. It also forces you to deal with any creature, as soon as it hits the battlefield, which is not what you want to be doing, but more on that later when I am coming to the more general ways of playing this match-up. It is however easier to deal with an artefact just as this, than with the so called Mangara lock.

When it comes to the postboard games it gets a little tricky, due to the potential presence of Cataclysm which will turn your mathematics and strategies upside down. It will screw all your long-term plans, be it Entreat the Angels, Jace, the Mind Sculptor or Keranos, God of Storms. This card will additionally invalidate all the previous decisions you made when it comes to choice of Fetchtland-targets. Without any specifically tailored hate cards just as Sulfur Elemental Cataclysm will ruin your day, one way or another. This leads to a very interesting decision point. Counterspells are pretty bad against Death and Taxes, but you cannot risk to join this fight without any copy of them, so you are forced to play in a suboptimal way, which then becomes the optimal choice. Counterspells are at their best when it comes to dealing with Cataclysm, as you can pretty much assure to have UU up when Cataclysm becomes a threat. Moreover, it also doubles as a catch-all against the rest of their deck which is re-castable with Snapcaster Mage, after all. Force of Will is pretty bad by nature, but has to be kept in for two reasons. First it is there to help you deal with Aether Vial and Cataclysm, their prime threats in this very match-up. Secondly it is there to kind of solidify the choice to keep Jace, the Mind Sculptor as it enables a certain sequence of plays, which could be described as a Tempo-Jace, basically preparing the way for Jace by aggressively forcing any of their cards or protecting Jace by forcing the first spell they cast after Jace resolved. While this may sound simplified, it is true more often than not.

To finalize the theoretical aspect I will summarize what we learned so far and give a few more general guidelines as to how approach this very match-up. The first thing is, at mentioned above, Aether Vial as this card will set the tone of this very game. Dealing with it is important, both before and after boarding.
Their next step is attacking via mana denial while deploying their first threats, mostly Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. If they lack disruptive creatures like Phyrexian Revoker, which is incredibly potent against Miracles due to its ability to shut down Sensei’s Divining Top or Jace, the Mind Sculptor, they will try to apply quick pressure just as Stoneforge Mystic. Phyrexian Revoker is especially spicy in conjunction with Aether Vial as it will not allow you to use your Top any more, so you should be using your activation in response to the Vial tapping with 2 counters on it. Stoneforge Mystic is no reason to pull the trigger on any removal spell if you are not forced to, in contrary to Phyrexian Revoker which can ruin all your plans you had for the future. It is more often correct than not to wait with removing any aggressive threats until you can draw more advantage from removing them, just like a disruptive creature or Mother of Runes. Be as liberal as possible when it comes to using your life as a resource as they effectively lack reach just as Lightning Bolt or Deathrite Shaman, making it rather easy to calculate the turns that are left before they threaten lethal. I am, however, well aware of the fact that this guideline should be somewhat altered when Aether Vial or Sword of Fire and Ice are involved in the equation, just as mentioned above. Using your life total aggressively will enable you to deal with most of the cards your opponent will bring to the table, as your card-selection should be bringing you the victory after a certain amount of time, but if you just remove any creature you see it might be tough to do so, due to the fact that they might simply have one creature too much, hitting you to death. Don’t just swords any Mother of Runes or Stoneforge Mystic you see in front of you. Choose the creatures you’d like to get beaten down from, remove the ones that alter your way of playing too heavily and be patient with your Terminus.

When it comes to boarding we should be bringing out these cards:
-4 Counterbalance
-2 Force of Will
+1 Counterspell
+2 Engineered Explosives
+1 Disenchant
+1 Keranos, God of Storms
+1 Council’s Judgment

Which should be logic conclusion to the premises we acquired earlier. If you are afraid of Spirit of Labyrinth and want to include an unreliable card just as Vendilion Clique, feel free to do so and pray that you hit Cataclysm with it. Force of Will has to stay in in some numbers to deal with Cataclysm, though you could definitely keep the third Force of Will for not bringing in the third Counterspell, this is entirely up to you. Counterbalance is still too unrelieable and Keranos is an extremely strong card, once resolved. Admittedly though, it’s tough to resolve him but the wait is worth it, more often than not. Generally speaking, this match-up is one of the tougher ones and you’d be better off not playing against too many of them, but with the right strategy, which you should have acquired after reading this, it isn’t the worst opponent in the world, but a force to reckon with, nonetheless. If you are dead set on beating Death and Taxes you might want to include Pithing Needle and Sulfur Elemental to your Sideboard. I am, personally, a big fan of Sulfur Elemental and whenever I build a new sideboard I pray that I find a spot for him. Sadly though, I didn’t but this card is just incredible in so many situations, not only when facing the white creatures.

I also quickly went over the boarding vs Death and Taxes over on Eternal Central almost two years ago:

Just as there are only two things that are certain in life, is is certain that you will have to deal with this deck, eventually. This mono-white aggro-control deck is quite a challenging matchup to play against, but once you know what role you are to be taking, it becomes much easier.

This matchup stands and falls with the presence of Aether Vial. If they don’t have any, it’s rather easy, if they do – it’s hell on our strategy. Our deck is supposed to be reigning over the stack, but if all of those creatures have flash and are uncounterable it’ll be tough.

Your main plan should be stalling, as long as you can – and then finishing them off with Entreat the Angels, most of the time in your own upkeep in response to the opposing Rishadan Port activation. Even though Counterbalance is rather good I prefer to board it out and play a different game than they expect us to – at least partly.

-2 Spell Pierce
-3 Counterbalance
-1 Force of Will
+1 Entreat the Angels
+1 Disenchant
+1 Counterspell
+2 Engineered Explosives
+1 Vendilion Clique

Your plan against Death and Taxes is twofold. First of all you should focus on beating Aether Vial – that’s the first priority. Once this is done everything else will be easy, trust me. If you can’t do this, you’re probably boned. Regardless of the outcome of plan 1 – you have to play the Jace game, protecting it with your Force of Wills and Counterspells. Despite the fact that Jace is often deemed a bad card in this matchup it should be your standard route to victory. Keeping in so much countermagic will often catch the opponent off guard, making their Cataclysms look pretty bad. Oh, and there are still Entreat the Angels in the deck, which will win you the game on the spot.




Now, given I don't stand by every single line I wrote here (especially the way I wrote) - it should still be rather clear that while lists change, the basic principle remains the same. I hope that these, admittedly old, posts helped a little bit. If they didn't - just let me know and I might write a fresh post (repeating most of the old principles). Maybe it'd also be of some interest to write an article where I contrast my views with Death and Taxes experts? Either way, let me know.

Greetings

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Originally Posted by Mackan

You provide an opinion but your argumentation is lacking. Please enlighten us! I also played Predict back in 2013 and I was not majorly disappointed.

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I admit Predict has its merits, but, as it turned out, it really only shines on paper. For me it cycled way too often and it certainly doesn't even get close to Dig's power level. Of course we crave a C/A source to make up for its ban, and there likely will never be a worthy successor. And for the time being Jace #3 + XYZ will always be superior to Predict's addition.
As you can see there is no water proof line of argumentation to sustainably bash Predict, however I'd recommend testing it for yourself and each time you draw it ask yourself: "Would I rather have this be a Jace".

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Originally Posted by Mackan

I don't see what mentor has anything to do with that.

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Predict fuels Mentor, which is a plus, but as I said: that doesn't cut it.

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Originally Posted by Mackan

A catch-all has been discussed earlier and it would be a nice inclusion in the sideboard. CJ is not optimal due to it's casting cost of double white though. What would you cut to make room for i.e EE?

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Cut from which list? There are almost as many lists as players out there.
I understand 1WW can be lackluster, but from a CB perspective CMC3 is a bomb. That being said, I'm still a big fan of a one-of EE in the MD, despite sucking CMCwise. Serving as an answer to the most common Miracles menaces: Vial, Lili, Chalice - all of which can be back breaking G1, as a well as critter sweeper, makes it the perfect Swiss army knife.

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

If you are dead set on beating Death and Taxes you might want to include Pithing Needle and Sulfur Elemental to your Sideboard. I am, personally, a big fan of Sulfur Elemental and whenever I build a new sideboard I pray that I find a spot for him. Sadly though, I didn’t but this card is just incredible in so many situations, not only when facing the white creatures. [/I]

Greetings

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What~? This hidden primer thing is rather funny.

Actually, Sulfur Elemental is Not as narrow as it appears. Miracles today continue to run Mentors, even some predict miracles players now are considering it. Say you get into this stare contest in the Miracles mirror, then your opponent drops a Mentor, the Sulfur Elemental in your hand now has a blown-out potential if you play it at the correct time.

Also, this card completely by-passes RUG Delver's counters, therefore you can safely get it into play to try to emergency block that pesky 3/3 Mongoose.

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Originally Posted by klaus

I admit Predict has its merits, but, as it turned out, it really only shines on paper. For me it cycled way too often and it certainly doesn't even get close to Dig's power level. Of course we crave a C/A source to make up for its ban, and there likely will never be a worthy successor. And for the time being Jace #3 + XYZ will always be superior to Predict's addition.

As you can see there is no water proof line of argumentation to sustainably bash Predict, however I'd recommend testing it for yourself and each time you draw it ask yourself: "Would I rather have this be a Jace".

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Look, Reid Duke is probably the most ridiculous and somehow unreasonable Miracles player imho when it comes to Jace. He runs more than 22 lands And often 3 to 4 Jaces. Here's the kicker: even he runs 1 Predict, despite the rest of his list. In other words, I don't think you have to choose between Predict vs Jace necessarily. Just fine-tune the number. Trying to abuse Predict to the max is probably not that optimal from my perspective, at least Not in Miracles.

I do lean on playing one copy of Predict, but I dislike Predict miracles as a whole, because of the simple reason that its ceiling is low. It's ok to dislike a Miracles build, but one has to separate the card out of that build, context is important.
1. Predict as a card in whatever Miracles build, 1 copy in some builds.
2. Predict Miracles build (2 Predicts, 2 Jaces, 0~1 Mentor).

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Originally Posted by klaus

@ Minniehajj:

Stop trying to make Predict happen..

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I normally don't post here, but I'm actually just really disappointed by this. Way to shut down valuable, harmless testing. And do you normally base your play and deckbuilding decisions off games you played three years ago? Have you considered that things have changed since you tested it in 2013? Like what does your post even accomplish? Next time why don't you actually test the card out in a relevant manner before making baseless statements in the form of sarcastic images? That way maybe you might be able to contribute something more meaningful.

Today I went 5-1-1 in a Win-A-Mox tournament playing Predictable Miracles. Here was my list:

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Counterbalance
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
4 Brainstorm
4 Plow
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
3 Predict
2 JTMS
4 Top
4 Island
2 Volc
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra

SB:
1 Blood Moon
2 Pyroblast
1 REB
2 Wear//Tear
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Monastery Mentor
2 Meddling Mage

r1 Shardless DRAW 1 1 1
r2 Grixis Delver WIN 2 0
r3 Miracles WIN 2 1
r4 Storm LOSS 0 2
r5 Lands WIN 2 0
r6 BURG Delver 2 0
r7 Lands WIN 2 0
t8 Split

In all 7 rounds, Predict was cast for value 100% of the time. Playing 4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm, and 4 SDT made this quite easy - I suspect in your testing three years ago you did not have the full playset of Ponders. Surprise! It actually makes a huge difference. In the many times I drew and cast Predict I never once thought "Oh man, I wish this were a Jace :(". In fact, the fact that Predict was a) only 2 mana, b) instant-speed, and c) flashbackable made me actually prefer it over the 3rd Jace. There are LOTS of random upsides that came up through the day, like removing my opponent's SDT or triggering Terminus on their turn - both of which Jace can't do.

Also, I'm not sure why you're bringing up DTT because a comparison to DTT doesn't affect how well or poorly Predict synergizes with the rest of the Miracles deck and therefore doesn't factor into my calculation of whether or not Predict belongs in my deck. Plus, if we use DTT as a metric to evaluate any cantrip then nothing will ever make the cut. Hell, there are even arguments that Ponder isn't as good as DTT, should I cut those too?

Mentor has nothing to do with Predict. It's not being cited as a reason for why Predict is good. In fact, if you've seen the recent lists posted here you've probably noticed that Mentor isn't even that strongly present in the list.

If you have questions, feel free to ask, but please don't come to conclusions using inappropriate data.

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Originally Posted by AnziD

I normally don't post here, but I'm actually just really disappointed by this. Way to shut down valuable, harmless testing. And do you normally base your play and deckbuilding decisions off games you played three years ago? Have you considered that things have changed since you tested it in 2013? Like what does your post even accomplish? Next time why don't you actually test the card out in a relevant manner before making baseless statements in the form of sarcastic images? That way maybe you might be able to contribute something more meaningful.

Today I went 5-1-1 in a Win-A-Mox tournament playing Predictable Miracles. Here was my list:

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Counterbalance
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
4 Brainstorm
4 Plow
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
3 Predict
2 JTMS
4 Top
4 Island
2 Volc
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra

SB:
1 Blood Moon
2 Pyroblast
1 REB
2 Wear//Tear
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Monastery Mentor
2 Meddling Mage

r1 Shardless DRAW 1 1 1
r2 Grixis Delver WIN 2 0
r3 Miracles WIN 2 1
r4 Storm LOSS 0 2
r5 Lands WIN 2 0
r6 BURG Delver 2 0
r7 Lands WIN 2 0
t8 Split

In all 7 rounds, Predict was cast for value 100% of the time. Playing 4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm, and 4 SDT made this quite easy - I suspect in your testing three years ago you did not have the full playset of Ponders. Surprise! It actually makes a huge difference. In the many times I drew and cast Predict I never once thought "Oh man, I wish this were a Jace :(". In fact, the fact that Predict was a) only 2 mana, b) instant-speed, and c) flashbackable made me actually prefer it over the 3rd Jace. There are LOTS of random upsides that came up through the day, like removing my opponent's SDT or triggering Terminus on their turn - both of which Jace can't do.

Also, I'm not sure why you're bringing up DTT because a comparison to DTT doesn't affect how well or poorly Predict synergizes with the rest of the Miracles deck and therefore doesn't factor into my calculation of whether or not Predict belongs in my deck. Plus, if we use DTT as a metric to evaluate any cantrip then nothing will ever make the cut. Hell, there are even arguments that Ponder isn't as good as DTT, should I cut those too?

Mentor has nothing to do with Predict. It's not being cited as a reason for why Predict is good. In fact, if you've seen the recent lists posted here you've probably noticed that Mentor isn't even that strongly present in the list.

If you have questions, feel free to ask, but please don't come to conclusions using inappropriate data.

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Thank you my friend :)
To add on to that, Mackan and I are playing a very similar list to this, but no mentor in our 75's. There's no correlation between mentor and predict.

Secondly, you did not play a deck designed around abusing predict. If you did, we would have heard about it. Predict, the card, has seen play in some form for many years, but has always ultimately been deemed not worth a slot. Now, we've built a list designed to abuse its strengths and maximize its power, and you base your assumption that we are not going to get it to work due to what, you're own experiences 3 years ago? Come off it. Mackan now has an insane record on MODO, cashing every event he's ever played with the deck, bar 2. (Mtgtop8 hasn't updated yet). Everyone who's piloted this version of the deck has been very happy with it, ourselves nonwithstanding. Don't accuse our claims to be baseless, we've put in the work and the testing, and we have results.

Hi everyone,

I don't really post here that often but I regularly read the posts in this thread. I went to a "win a biland" event on saturday with my list of miracles. I've been playing the "classic" 2-mentor 4 ponder builds for 3-4 month now (swiched from grixis pyromancer after the DTT ban), but I found the deck really needed a CA engine, as a way to pull ahead in grindy matchups. I've been testing Predict for a while, as a 1 or 2 of, cutting different cards for it.

My main impression is that it is almost always a 1U: draw 2. I have never cycled a predict without drawing 2 cards. It is true however that I have sometimes waited several turns before casting it, waiting for an opportunity to gain information on the top card of either library. Overall, I found the card to be correct and the +1 card advantage it provided helped me pull ahead in lots of games.

For the specific event I played in, I decided to cut 2 ponders to make room for 2 predicts, getting inspiration from the pre-DTT builds. I now this is not an optimal choice, especially given the synergy between the 2 cards, but I couldn't bring myself to cut anything else.

My build for this tournament was:
4 Flooded strand
4 Scalding tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island*
5 Island
2 Plains

3 Snapcaster
2 Mentor

4 Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Stp
2 Ponder
4 CB
2 Counterspell
2 Predict
3 JTMS
4 Terminus
4 FoW
1 ETA

and side:
1 Mountain*
1 Mindbreak trap*
2 Wear//Tear
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Keranos
2 RiP
2 REB
1 Pyroblast
1 Council's Judgement

The cards marked with * were budget replacements, as I don't own all the cards I need in paper (I run 3 volcanics MD and 2 flusterstorm in the side on mtgo )

I ended up in top 8 after the following matches:

R1: Bant Maverick: 2-0. Probably playing the reliquary combo, he was kindof manascrewed both games and I won via CB-lock then entreat
R2: Infect 2-1 very close match, game 1, he plays a sylvan library and FoWs my counterspell, but he draws too much cards and I am able to survive until I end of turn entreat for 1, and attack for lethal by killing his inkmoth he activated to block with. Game 2 he wins a fight over a become immense and wins, game 3 he doesn't do much and I am able to resolve a mentor and attack with lethal the following turn.
R3: Storm. Not having flusterstorm in the side hurts. Game 1, he discards my counters, then goes for Ad Nauseam in response to my counterbalance. As I don't have top in play I succeed in getting a 2cmc on top with a BS but he finds a way to kill me without using his 2cmc cards. Game 2 still no top, he discards my hand leaving me with brainstorm + Jace at the moment he goes for infernal tutor+sac his LED. I brainstorm to try and find a FoW, which I dont and lose 2-0.
R4: Lands, He seems to be playing a full combo version. G1 he kills me on turn 3-4 with a 20/20. Game 2 and 3 I am able to counterbalance lock him + play a Jace and win via ultimate. CB is a lot stronger than I initially thought in the matchup, though he didn't seem to play Decay, only Krosan Grip, which I played around by leaving a 3 on top most of the time once I saw it.
R5: Elves. I keep a rather slow hand in the blind. He plays some elves in turn 1, I play a tundra. T2 he plays craddle, druild, generates mana and plays natural order. I cannot counter it, but his target was a 7/7 that prevents damage to him (his elves were tapped so he didn't go for behemot).
I topdeck a terminus on my turn 2 and win easily.
Game 2 he attacks me, plays a bunch of chokes to force me to use counterspells then resolves a natural order for ruric thar. I have a terminus on top, but I'm already down to 6 life.
Game 3 I resolve a counterbalance lock, but he still has lots of hate cards (choke, needle, null rod). The game becomes grindy and he is able to resolve natural order (again!) for Ruric Thar, which I kill, then another one for craterhoof attacking me down to 1. I am then able to terminus, stabilize and win a lot of turns later by topdecking an EtA.

I qualify for top 8, playing quarter finals against RuG delver. He quickly wins game 1. Game 2, I am able to lock the game with Jace + CB with still ~20 minutes on the clock. However, as the store had to close, the rounds were not untimes, and in case of draw, the winner would be decided by "sudden death", meaning first one to take damage loses (including fetches). I see my opponent is not going to concede and stalls out the game. He takes way to much time on brainstorms and is very picky about rules interactions. I should have called a judge to check for slow play, but I focused on not making mistakes and winning on time. I decide that going for Jace ultimate is not going to be enough since he will not concede and with 7 cards in his hand he could stall the game enough to not lose. I brainstorm to find mentor and kill him in the first additional turns.

We then have to play a "sudden death" game 3, which favors him a lot (land + creature or land+ bolt wins him the game on the spot). He mulls to 3 to find such a hand, I keep at 6 with Island+toundra+BS+CB+Mentor. Fortunately, his hand does nothing and I attack him with my mentor on T4 (justice!)

I get completely crushed by MUD on the semifinals, but end up winning a badland.

Sorry for the long post, way longer than what I initially wanted :p I still make some mistakes with the deck but it is really strong and has game against most of the field

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kingbrago

Hi everyone,

I don't really post here that often but I regularly read the posts in this thread. I went to a "win a biland" event on saturday with my list of miracles. I've been playing the "classic" 2-mentor 4 ponder builds for 3-4 month now (swiched from grixis pyromancer after the DTT ban), but I found the deck really needed a CA engine, as a way to pull ahead in grindy matchups. I've been testing Predict for a while, as a 1 or 2 of, cutting different cards for it.

My main impression is that it is almost always a 1U: draw 2. I have never cycled a predict without drawing 2 cards. It is true however that I have sometimes waited several turns before casting it, waiting for an opportunity to gain information on the top card of either library. Overall, I found the card to be correct and the +1 card advantage it provided helped me pull ahead in lots of games.

For the specific event I played in, I decided to cut 2 ponders to make room for 2 predicts, getting inspiration from the pre-DTT builds. I now this is not an optimal choice, especially given the synergy between the 2 cards, but I couldn't bring myself to cut anything else.

My build for this tournament was:
4 Flooded strand
4 Scalding tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island*
5 Island
2 Plains

3 Snapcaster
2 Mentor

4 Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Stp
2 Ponder
4 CB
2 Counterspell
2 Predict
3 JTMS
4 Terminus
4 FoW
1 ETA

and side:
1 Mountain*
1 Mindbreak trap*
2 Wear//Tear
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Keranos
2 RiP
2 REB
1 Pyroblast
1 Council's Judgement

The cards marked with * were budget replacements, as I don't own all the cards I need in paper (I run 3 volcanics MD and 2 flusterstorm in the side on mtgo )

I ended up in top 8 after the following matches:

R1: Bant Maverick: 2-0. Probably playing the reliquary combo, he was kindof manascrewed both games and I won via CB-lock then entreat
R2: Infect 2-1 very close match, game 1, he plays a sylvan library and FoWs my counterspell, but he draws too much cards and I am able to survive until I end of turn entreat for 1, and attack for lethal by killing his inkmoth he activated to block with. Game 2 he wins a fight over a become immense and wins, game 3 he doesn't do much and I am able to resolve a mentor and attack with lethal the following turn.
R3: Storm. Not having flusterstorm in the side hurts. Game 1, he discards my counters, then goes for Ad Nauseam in response to my counterbalance. As I don't have top in play I succeed in getting a 2cmc on top with a BS but he finds a way to kill me without using his 2cmc cards. Game 2 still no top, he discards my hand leaving me with brainstorm + Jace at the moment he goes for infernal tutor+sac his LED. I brainstorm to try and find a FoW, which I dont and lose 2-0.
R4: Lands, He seems to be playing a full combo version. G1 he kills me on turn 3-4 with a 20/20. Game 2 and 3 I am able to counterbalance lock him + play a Jace and win via ultimate. CB is a lot stronger than I initially thought in the matchup, though he didn't seem to play Decay, only Krosan Grip, which I played around by leaving a 3 on top most of the time once I saw it.
R5: Elves. I keep a rather slow hand in the blind. He plays some elves in turn 1, I play a tundra. T2 he plays craddle, druild, generates mana and plays natural order. I cannot counter it, but his target was a 7/7 that prevents damage to him (his elves were tapped so he didn't go for behemot).
I topdeck a terminus on my turn 2 and win easily.
Game 2 he attacks me, plays a bunch of chokes to force me to use counterspells then resolves a natural order for ruric thar. I have a terminus on top, but I'm already down to 6 life.
Game 3 I resolve a counterbalance lock, but he still has lots of hate cards (choke, needle, null rod). The game becomes grindy and he is able to resolve natural order (again!) for Ruric Thar, which I kill, then another one for craterhoof attacking me down to 1. I am then able to terminus, stabilize and win a lot of turns later by topdecking an EtA.

I qualify for top 8, playing quarter finals against RuG delver. He quickly wins game 1. Game 2, I am able to lock the game with Jace + CB with still ~20 minutes on the clock. However, as the store had to close, the rounds were not untimes, and in case of draw, the winner would be decided by "sudden death", meaning first one to take damage loses (including fetches). I see my opponent is not going to concede and stalls out the game. He takes way to much time on brainstorms and is very picky about rules interactions. I should have called a judge to check for slow play, but I focused on not making mistakes and winning on time. I decide that going for Jace ultimate is not going to be enough since he will not concede and with 7 cards in his hand he could stall the game enough to not lose. I brainstorm to find mentor and kill him in the first additional turns.

We then have to play a "sudden death" game 3, which favors him a lot (land + creature or land+ bolt wins him the game on the spot). He mulls to 3 to find such a hand, I keep at 6 with Island+toundra+BS+CB+Mentor. Fortunately, his hand does nothing and I attack him with my mentor on T4 (justice!)

I get completely crushed by MUD on the semifinals, but end up winning a badland.

Sorry for the long post, way longer than what I initially wanted :p I still make some mistakes with the deck but it is really strong and has game against most of the field

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Well done! It seems like the issues that you had with the deck would have actually been alleviated had you played the 4 ponder 2 predict variant.

Remember, we're trying to streamline the deck completely, hence why we're playing such an extreme build. We urge you to give something like it a shot! Thanks for writing the report though, and great work!

anyway, I think DnT will become a very relevant deck next meta because of a card we didn't even mention

Warping Wail

it counters Terminus, Pyroclasm, Entreat
gives them an Instant body Equipments
Exile Clique and Snapcaster

Luckily it is counterable..may be Spell Snare has to be played back again...we will see 4 of them against us almost surely..

Serenity might be a worth SB addition for next meta and may be the second Izzet Staticaster

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Poron

anyway, I think DnT will become a very relevant deck next meta because of a card we didn't even mention

Warping Wail

it counters Terminus, Pyroclasm, Entreat
gives them an Instant body Equipments
Exile Clique and Snapcaster

Luckily it is counterable..may be Spell Snare has to be played back again...we will see 4 of them against us almost surely..

Serenity might be a worth SB addition for next meta and may be the second Izzet Staticaster

---

Nope, that card is pretty poor. It's a two mana do nothing, which requires wasteland/port to not be used.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Poron

..may be Spell Snare has to be played back again...

---

fwiw spell snare has been great vs dnt, bar cavern of souls

Often they play only 1 Cavern (max 2) and they can't name both humans, horror and whatsover..

Anyway, I believe the card is strong. It also counters Reaninate, Exhume, Show and Tell, GSun Zenith and Natural Order.

It'll see play, imho

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Poron

Often they play only 1 Cavern (max 2) and they can't name both humans, horror and whatsover..

Anyway, I believe the card is strong. It also counters Reaninate, Exhume, Show and Tell, GSun Zenith and Natural Order.

It'll see play, imho

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It might. It's highly unlike that it will be in DnT though, as it is inherintly anti-synergestic with their game-plan (Mana-denial, taxing, to-the-ground, no spells with Thalia, Ports as well as Pegasus').

It's very strong in modern as well as standard, though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

It might. It's highly unlike that it will be in DnT though, as it is inherintly anti-synergestic with their game-plan (Mana-denial, taxing, to-the-ground, no spells with Thalia, Ports as well as Pegasus').

It's very strong in modern as well as standard, though.

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Warping Wail represents some serious color bleeding, at the same level as Phyrexian mana. I mean signature/core mechanics of a colour being available to all "colours". I'm not too happy about that in principle.

If this card ends up being all over the place, I agree that it poses a serious threat to Miracles. Not sure how to best combat it; It might make Blood Moon more relevant, as it shuts down colourless mana from lands. Blood Moon vs. D&T seems horrible though.. :rolleyes:

Edit: Why does Serenety keep coming up? You realize it destroys CB, Top, and itself, right? Why would you ever want that over W/T?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kingbrago

We then have to play a "sudden death" game 3, which favors him a lot (land + creature or land+ bolt wins him the game on the spot). He mulls to 3 to find such a hand, I keep at 6 with Island+toundra+BS+CB+Mentor. Fortunately, his hand does nothing and I attack him with my mentor on T4 (justice!)

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That "sudden death" rule sounds fucking dumb.