All B/R update speculation.

People should be arguing for a top (among other cards) unban, not a DRS ban. When miracles was top dog with top, the vast majority of top 8s had like 1-2 miracles and 1 delver and then 1-2 random Thalia or combo deck. It was pretty balanced. The 4 miracles legacy GP top 8 was an anomaly, not the norm. I mean sure, the root of the problem is how consistent the contrip cartel is, but if we accept that the blue cantrips are here to stay, I think the format would be better with both top and DRS unbanned than both banned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AznSeal

People should be arguing for a top (among other cards) unban, not a DRS ban. When miracles was top dog with top, the vast majority of top 8s had like 1-2 miracles and 1 delver and then 1-2 random Thalia or combo deck. It was pretty balanced. The 4 miracles legacy GP top 8 was an anomaly, not the norm. I mean sure, the root of the problem is how consistent the contrip cartel is, but if we accept that the blue cantrips are here to stay, I think the format would be better with both top and DRS unbanned than both banned.

---

I know that, you know that, we all know that here on the source because the average player on here is infinitely better at the game than some random. However, wizards doesn’t know that, and we can be 100% certain of that fact based on some of the cards on the banned list still being banned. It would not surprise me in the slightest if that ‘ban top’ street sign that was outside their building was at least 50% of the reason they ended up banning it last year.

What would these Top-8s look like if Brainstorm were banned?

Coverage of the GP was not only painful because of rather poor, well, coverage, but (what felt like) having to see at least one Deathrite Shaman in play at any given point gets kind of boring after a while. I realize that Brainstorm is in more decks, but at least once it’s resolved it’s gone. Deathrite Shaman stays and forces us as viewers watch the slow count down by two from 20.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MGB

What would these Top-8s look like if Brainstorm were banned?

---

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/db/be...5a4d65aab9.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MGB

What would these Top-8s look like if Brainstorm were banned?

---

From my biased position pro-top, I still think if we substitute top for brainstorm it would look very very interesting as blue still gets ponder and probe but can’t hide shit for free. Too bad we’ll never get a meta like that ever though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by maharis

This is incredibly difficult to do. Anything that only costs 1 or 2 mana, especially of one color, can be easily splashed in a blue deck, even without Deathrite. (See Tarmogoyf). Anything that costs more than that and is color-intensive is simply not efficient enough to compete with the 0-1 cmc soup that's glued together by card velocity and selection from the cantrips.

---

Demonic Cantrip
Sorcery, B
Draw two cards, lose two life.
~this~ can't be cast unless you control a basic Swamp.

There's a template for you, regardless of playability in the format. I could come up with more ideas, but we have another thread for that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AznSeal

People should be arguing for a top (among other cards) unban, not a DRS ban. When miracles was top dog with top, the vast majority of top 8s had like 1-2 miracles and 1 delver and then 1-2 random Thalia or combo deck. It was pretty balanced. The 4 miracles legacy GP top 8 was an anomaly, not the norm. I mean sure, the root of the problem is how consistent the contrip cartel is, but if we accept that the blue cantrips are here to stay, I think the format would be better with both top and DRS unbanned than both banned.

---

Let's forget how Miracles was the top deck for three years straight (it could even fight decks that were later banned for the top position), shall we? Miracles getting hit with the ban hammer was absolutely justified. It just hit SDT because it was the core card of the deck AND caused time issues because one slow chucklefuck is enough to hold up the entire tournament. Even if it sucks that other decks were hit hard by the colleteral damage.

DRS should have been banned at the same time as SDT because the outcome was predictable, yet here we are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook

From my biased position pro-top, I still think if we substitute top for brainstorm it would look very very interesting as blue still gets ponder and probe but can’t hide shit for free. Too bad we’ll never get a meta like that ever though.

---

The format in general would be better without Brainstorm, Probe and Ponder. Both Vintage and Modern eventually came to the conclusion that Ponder and Probe are too good and that Preordain is still good enough as a cantrip. Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage and was never printed in Modern. Yet somehow you can still jam 4x Brainstorm/Ponder/Probes in Legacy because the guy in charge doesn't give a shit about Legacy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barook

Let's forget how Miracles was the top deck for three years straight (it could even fight decks that were later banned for the top position), shall we? Miracles getting hit with the ban hammer was absolutely justified. It just hit SDT because it was the core card of the deck AND caused time issues because one slow chucklefuck is enough to hold up the entire tournament. Even if it sucks that other decks were hit hard by the colleteral damage.

DRS should have been banned at the same time as SDT because the outcome was predictable, yet here we are.


The format in general would be better without Brainstorm, Probe and Ponder. Both Vintage and Modern eventually came to the conclusion that Ponder and Probe are too good and that Preordain is still good enough as a cantrip. Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage and was never printed in Modern. Yet somehow you can still jam 4x Brainstorm/Ponder/Probes in Legacy because the guy in charge doesn't give a shit about Legacy.

---

This. Probe is banned in Modern/Restricted in vintage. Ponder is banned in modern/restricted in vintage. Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage. Neither of those formats are mired by ridiculous number of just 8+ cantrip decks (for multiple other reasons), but you know what format is? The one where all of these busted fucking pieces of shit are legal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Megadeus

...but you know what format is? The one where all of these busted fucking pieces of shit are legal.

---

Just play a different format and be happy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Megadeus

This. Probe is banned in Modern/Restricted in vintage. Ponder is banned in modern/restricted in vintage. Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage. Neither of those formats are mired by ridiculous number of just 8+ cantrip decks (for multiple other reasons), but you know what format is? The one where all of these busted fucking pieces of shit are legal.

---

And yet despite this the number of maindeck Pyroblasts in Vintage is still higher. Should we ban Thirst for Knowledge too?

I didn't play mtg at the time, but I seem to recall people saying that a lot of people quit playing Vintage when Brainstorm was restricted
A lot of people just enjoy playing the card Brainstorm.
It sounds scary to think that we're all playing a format with 'busted fucking pieces of shit', I guess Vintage must be unplayable then if the power 9 is allowed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScottW

Just play a different format and be happy.

---

If nothing changes with the next 1-2 B&R updates, that might just happen for me.

Or more likely quit Magic all together, as there aren't any other magic formats that interest me judging from what I see on streams.

Life's too short to be bored.

why isn't goblin recruiter unbanned? we have decks that can kill one turn 1or 2. unban recruiter already.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScottW

Just play a different format and be happy.

---

Seriously, at some point you have to realize that while you may not like that legacy is about blue cantrips, but most of us are just fine with it. You don't accomplish anything by derailing every attempt at reasonable discussion with your fever dream that's both never happening and would piss off 75% fo the player base. I realized a similar thing with modern a few years ago; I didn't like what modern was about but most people were enjoying the format, so I stopped complaining and played other formats. Play another format, play chalice and chains and punish the people with 12 cantrips, or have a banned list discussion about things that might actually happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by phg22

Seriously, at some point you have to realize that while you may not like that legacy is about blue cantrips, but most of us are just fine with it. You don't accomplish anything by derailing every attempt at reasonable discussion with your fever dream that's both never happening and would piss off 75% fo the player base. I realized a similar thing with modern a few years ago; I didn't like what modern was about but most people were enjoying the format, so I stopped complaining and played other formats. Play another format, play chalice and chains and punish the people with 12 cantrips, or have a banned list discussion about things that might actually happen.

---

The 'they will never ban Brainstorm' argument is just as unfounded though or has there ever been such an official statement from Wizards? The ban of Top was completely unexpected also and the card was considered a pillar of the format as well so I wouldn't write it off that one day we will finally see BS and its companions banned.

It's not even about the fact that the format is all about blue cantrips. It's that anytime a card come close to being as played as those blue cantrips, it get banned. SotF being legal would've solved miracle having no playable predators, but instead we banned top and kept all the cantrips so we lost a unique sinergy-based top deck for just another shit pile of good cards. And this with miracle at 20% of the format and all the delver variants only slightly behind. Currently the UBRg piles/delver are at how much? 30%? But just watch DRS get banned so we can get another U-cantrip-allgoodstuff with the best cheap non-U cards in it deck as the top of the format.

Know what would've weakened miracle and all the U-piles at the same time? What would've made a lot of other decks if only slightly more competitive and the format more balanced? Banning the right card ages ago. Keeping SotF and top in the format. Unbanning other garbage still on the banlist. But nooooo

I dream of a format with tempo based decks, midrange-combo SotF and green based decks, miracle countertop, combo-prison lands, aggro-prison in DnT and Tomb decks, and a whole slew of T2 decks behind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gheizen64

I dream of a format with tempo based decks, midrange-combo SotF and green based decks, miracle countertop, combo-prison lands, aggro-prison in DnT and Tomb decks, and a whole slew of T2 decks behind.

---

So you basically dream about 2012 (+ SotF)?

Lol @ Erdvermampfa. Do you even have any other posts here than Brainstorm bashing?

I honestly have moved heavily away from the format. It's just a bad format right now. It makes me sad to do because I enjoy much of the player base, but I have had little desire to go play this terrible format and I know many people in our area that are literally just making up their own formats just so they can play with each other because they don't want to play legacy anymore. Between the format being miserable and the prices still soaring the format should be dead soon which sucks, but it's time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cave

Yeah, the question is how can you practically stop blue structural advantages from providing the best shell of the format. You ban brainstorm, ponder, preordain and gitaxian probe? Sounds nonsense. The format's beauty resides in playing powerful cards and being able to look for them when you need'em. Question is, how can you balance that?

---

You mostly can't, because cantripping at 1 mana is not an investment and Xerox is just the best way to build decks, period. Hell, even Pauper is slowly but surely Xeroxifying - people are even playing Brainstorm in a small capacity due to Ash Barrens, even if it's mostly an Augur of Bolas and Preordain show thus far. But eg. Skred Delver runs 17 cantrips (4 Augur, 4 Faerie Miscreant, 4 Preordain, 3 Ponder, 2 Brainstorm). Boros Monarch, the format's take on a Shardless/Jund-esque value deck is close to being a Xerox deck too - 22 cards that replace themselves. As predicted by Rich Shay's take of Xerox Mentor decks in Vintage, the non-Xerox decks that survive in Pauper are either:

1. Fast, and win before the blue decks recover from the tiny tempo losses incurred by cantripping.
1.1. Monogreen Stompy with Burning-Tree Emissary for explosiveness
1.2. Tireless Tribe+Inside Out combo decks, which are Xerox decks themselves to begin with.
2. Decks that go over the top in a way low-curve Xerox decks have a hard time dealing with:
2.1. Tron decks that go over the top with raw draw into facemelt-sized Rolling Thunders, Capsize locks and increasingly by recurring fogs into milling the fairer decks out.
2.2. Elves decks that go over the top.
2.3. UB Control decks running Gurmag Angler since Pauper's mana means Grixis Delver probably won't be a thing.

This is important because one argument for cantrips has been that they're only as good as the cards they find. In Pauper, the threats suck. And it's turning into Xeroxland, live before our eyes. I like cantrips as much as anyone else but at some point multiple formats and years of history have to be allowed to say something. That something is that cantrips are a fundamentally broken concept.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

The 'they will never ban Brainstorm' argument is just as unfounded though or has there ever been such an official statement from Wizards? The ban of Top was completely unexpected also and the card was considered a pillar of the format as well so I wouldn't write it off that one day we will finally see BS and its companions banned.

---

I doubt they're ever going to explicitly make a statement "Brainstorm will always be legal in Legacy no matter what".

But their actions make clear that they're not ever going to ban it. Vintage is now the "you can play four Workshops and we'll restrict every artifact ever printed if that's what it takes" format. Legacy is the "you can play four Brainstorms and we'll ban literally every other card except basic Island if that's what it takes" format.

So Legacy banlist discussions, if they're to be at all practical or realistic, must be discussions of "how do we build the best possible four-Brainstorm format".

Personally I hate TNN more than DRS. While DRS causes issued with homogeneity in deck building I feel it adds net benefits to Legacy. I think it's effect of suppressing graveyards is often overlooked. It's a bitch sure but it does not have the same 'I did everything right and then my opponent just played a card I can't interact with and I lost regardless of my tight play' that TNN does. TNN invalidates so much for so little.

Seriously, what good does TNN add to the format? If you playing a 3 drop creature in Legacy your really having to twist yourself into a pretzel to justify playing anything else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DarthVicious

Demonic Cantrip
Sorcery, B
Draw two cards, lose two life.
~this~ can't be cast unless you control a basic Swamp.

---

This card is broken. I would 100% play this in storm, alongside my four brainstorms, and if you banned brainstorm, it would still be bananas.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barook

It just hit SDT because it was the core card of the deck AND caused time issues because one slow chucklefuck is enough to hold up the entire tournament. Even if it sucks that other decks were hit hard by the colleteral damage.

---

This is still true, and didn't change because top is gone. That issue has more to do with the way tournaments are set up more than it does with any individual card, and the time justification for banning top is vacuous. Rounds still go to time, and it only takes one person to make it happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barook

The format in general would be better without Brainstorm, Probe and Ponder. Both Vintage and Modern eventually came to the conclusion that Ponder and Probe are too good and that Preordain is still good enough as a cantrip. Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage and was never printed in Modern.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Megadeus

This. Probe is banned in Modern/Restricted in vintage. Ponder is banned in modern/restricted in vintage. Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage. Neither of those formats are mired by ridiculous number of just 8+ cantrip decks (for multiple other reasons), but you know what format is? The one where all of these busted fucking pieces of shit are legal.

---

....so play vintage or modern? Or even standard, where the gold standard cantrip is Opt, and that's the best it's been in years?

The format would not be better without the cantrips, it would just be higher variance. What is wrong about being able to execute your plan each game, or find answers for your opponent's game? Mana screw or flood makes for the actual worst games of Magic, and getting rid of the cantrips makes those games happen more often. Cantrips allow people to actually interact and play, which is better than the alternative.

Plus, you can still play non-cantrip decks in Legacy! 3/7 of the current DtB are non-cantrip, and there are plenty of decks not currently on that page that are still great! I'm not saying that cantrip decks aren't still great, and perhaps the best thing you can be doing, but if we have to have a best deck, we could do worse than the interactive, skill-testing, fair Grixis Delver.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Megadeus

I honestly have moved heavily away from the format. It's just a bad format right now.

---

But it isn't bad - it's interactive, there is a diversity of archetypes represented (with the possible exception of Aggro, depending on how you characterize burn), and even though Grixis is probably a bit too strong, there isn't one deck that is unbeatable. What else could you want from a format? I get that you guys just really hate blue in your bones, but it's hard to address that argument because you can't change the colors of the cards. If the textural differences between the archetypes isn't enough, I'm not sure if it's a tractable problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zombie

I like cantrips as much as anyone else but at some point multiple formats and years of history have to be allowed to say something. That something is that cantrips are a fundamentally broken concept.

---

I can't really speak to Pauper because I don't play it, but I feel like even if you accept the premise that cantrips are inherently broken (which I dispute), I still think they make the game better: do you want to win because you "had it" and your opponent didn't, or do you want to win because you both had what you needed and you played it better? Cantrips make for less of the former and more of the latter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScottW

Just play a different format and be happy.

---

A lot of the “Brainstorm Forever!” camp would benefit from this as well. Play some Modern and Vintage, and you’ll get a perspective on why 4 Brainstorm is absurd and shouldn’t be taken for granted.

Why is the restricting method so taboo in non-Vintage formats? It solves a lot of problems without actually removing cards from play (seemingly.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Why is the restricting method so taboo in non-Vintage formats? It solves a lot of problems without actually removing cards from play (seemingly.)

---

You question THE fundamental difference between these formats, with Vintage defined by restrictions of cards too powerful, while Legacy bans them. It's like questioning why Modern isn't including Onslaught or Saga blocks.

I don't see the appeal of turning Legacy into "Vintage without Power" in general. It's not that Vintage went through the roof in the last 10 years thanks to these excessive restrictions.

I would rather see clear bans in Legacy than Vintage-levels of generic blue "deckbuilding" a la

4x FoW
1x Probe
1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
4x Preordain

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuart

A lot of the “Brainstorm Forever!” camp would benefit from this as well. Play some Modern and Vintage, and you’ll get a perspective on why 4 Brainstorm is absurd and shouldn’t be taken for granted.

---

I definitely don't take it for granted - the reason I play Legacy and not Modern is because WOTC built Modern on all the principles the anti-cantrip crowd wants for Legacy, and consequently Modern is awful.

I would 100% play vintage if I could afford it, though. I would do it even though Shops would eat my lunch every other round :laugh:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Why is the restricting method so taboo in non-Vintage formats? It solves a lot of problems without actually removing cards from play (seemingly.)

---

Because the point of Vintage is that overpowered cards are only restricted rather than banned.

Also, Vintage has the benefit that there's so many broken cards restricted that you'll draw a decent number of them, whereas in other formats it just increases the variance of who happens to draw their 1-of restricted card gaining a big advantage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

You question THE fundamental difference between these formats, with Vintage defined by restrictions of cards too powerful, while Legacy bans them. It's like questioning why Modern isn't including Onslaught or Saga blocks.

---

Saga maybe, but not Onslaught. Modern was made as a way to have a nonrotating format that avoids the Reserved List, but starting it with Onslaught would still fit that description (Saga has reserved cards and cannot be used in it). Considering they straight-up admitted that the starting point of Modern was totally arbitrary, I don't think there's really anything in the identity of the format that would be changed if they moved the starting point back to Onslaught or even as far back as Mercadian Masques. Not to say the format's metagame wouldn't changed a bunch due to new cards being added, but that happens each year with new Standard sets anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by taconaut

I definitely don't take it for granted - the reason I play Legacy and not Modern is because WOTC built Modern on all the principles the anti-cantrip crowd wants for Legacy, and consequently Modern is awful.

I would 100% play vintage if I could afford it, though. I would do it even though Shops would eat my lunch every other round :laugh:

---

The thing is, Legacy has A LOT of cantrips. I do not like Brainstorm myself and feel the format would be much better without it, that doesn't mean I want to line up everything else and knock them down to seek out a copy of Modern. I feel like comparing the views of those who do not approve of one card to a whole format you don't like is reductive. Your not going to get a conversation if your opening gambit is basicly another form of "Go play Modern". I do, Lantern rocks.

Ponder is a broken as fuck card but it's not Banable. Preordain is actually fairly mundane. Opt, Visions (More a modern thing but it did once see legacy play a long time ago), Portent and Predict, Legacy has so many legal cantrips that to take them all out you would have to make the ban list laughable.

The "Anti cantrip crowd" is often only talking about one card, it's not like anyone's coming for your Preordains and your Volcanic Islands.

The fact that Portent came out of nowhere to be a Miracles staple (assuming, haven't checked the GP lists) means there's no way that Cantrip decks are going anywhere even if half the played cantrips were emergency banned tomorrow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Personally I hate TNN more than DRS. While DRS causes issued with homogeneity in deck building I feel it adds net benefits to Legacy. I think it's effect of suppressing graveyards is often overlooked. It's a bitch sure but it does not have the same 'I did everything right and then my opponent just played a card I can't interact with and I lost regardless of my tight play' that TNN does. TNN invalidates so much for so little.

Seriously, what good does TNN add to the format? If you playing a 3 drop creature in Legacy your really having to twist yourself into a pretzel to justify playing anything else.

---

We spend a considerable amount of time on this on Eternal Durdles this week. 57:00-1:04:00 I think. Fuck TNN.

Man, Modern would be SO MUCH BETTER if it included IPA, OTJ, and OLN. Like it's not even close how much better and cooler the format would be.

Plus, Astral Slide suckas!!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Megadeus

This. Probe is banned in Modern/Restricted in vintage. Ponder is banned in modern/restricted in vintage. Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage. Neither of those formats are mired by ridiculous number of just 8+ cantrip decks (for multiple other reasons), but you know what format is? The one where all of these busted fucking pieces of shit are legal.

---

I actually think it would be an interesting experiment to take a Vintage deck that plays:

4 Preordain
1 Ancestral
1 Gush
1 DTT
1 Cruise
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Probe
1 Mystical Tutor

and just replace those 12 with:

4 Brainstorm
4 Probe
4 Ponder

and see which deck is actually better.

The argument to ban DRS in Modern way back when was that Modern Jund was essentially a Legacy deck. I wonder if some of these Legacy decks, if ported fully to Vintage (that is, being allowed to play 4 of BS and Ponder and Probe but not any other restricted cards), would be powerful enough to compete, even with decks that have RL access.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zombie

You mostly can't, because cantripping at 1 mana is not an investment and Xerox is just the best way to build decks, period. Hell, even Pauper is slowly but surely Xeroxifying...+other stuff

---

What.
1. Blue Delver decks (now in the reincarnated UR shell) have been tier 1 in pauper forever. The format is not "xeroxifying" or whatever it's called.

2. I came from vintage, like many of us, a long ago. And I don't understand this whole cantrip hate. Are you all forgetting that vintage is a format where true card advantage engines are playable, like gush, ancestral, gifts ungiven, tfk, and many more 1x random nukebombs? Note that here I'm not talking about card selection, that's for pussies. I mean actually casting a card and ending up having more cards in hand than before casting it. And yet, despite this, mud monobrown was uncontested tier 1 for soooooooooo long time. What's the reason? Just simply mud had better cards before the bans, cards that played on a different angle of attack and couldn't be splashed in the usual "xerox" (no offense, but that's a stupid name for real) core.

Of course, blue is the best support shell. It gives what you want and protects it. What's the news? If in the next set we're gonna have a very viable [insert color] creature for 1+[insert color], then

8 Fetch
6 Duals
4 Wasteland
4 Delver
4 Deathrite
4 New Creature
2 Angler/Tnn
4 Daze
4 Fow
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 [Insert Color] Removal
2 Meta

is gonna be tier 1. If the creature is reeeeeally good and costs 3, we're gonna have Stoneblade back to top tier, just switch shell.

I stated my opinion already. We need good cards that can't be splashed in a blue shell. TKS was a good try.
Look at what Miracles used to do against tempo decks (haven't played it in years): G2 side out all counters side in 5-6 must answer threats, and then you go Blood Moon into Terminus into Jace into Keranos and if one sticks you win. We need unsplashable cards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Claymore

The fact that Portent came out of nowhere to be a Miracles staple (assuming, haven't checked the GP lists) means there's no way that Cantrip decks are going anywhere even if half the played cantrips were emergency banned tomorrow.

---

This is the very core of why i consider banning Brainstorm low impact on the bigger picture. You fuck over a bunch of combo and tempo decks here and there by stripping them from the ability to shuffle situational cards back, but the rest does give a fuck and simply plays...

4x FoW
4x DRS
4x Delver
4x Probe
4x Ponder
4x Preordain
8x Fetch

I can't see how that is a fundamental fix for the ongoing dominance of 3c/4c goodstuff decks and blue being the superior core for card selection. Not even ANT would give THAT much of a fuck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by taconaut

.
Plus, you can still play non-cantrip decks in Legacy! 3/7 of the current DtB are non-cantrip...

---

But they're not Maverick or Jund.

The fact that the best non-cantrip decks are Lands, Eldrazi, D&T, and Elves - rather than regular fair decks - just goes to show how terrible this format really is.

Question for everyone at large: would you still play Brainstorm as a 4-of if it was a sorcery?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dice_Box

The thing is, Legacy has A LOT of cantrips. I do not like Brainstorm myself and feel the format would be much better without it, that doesn't mean I want to line up everything else and knock them down to seek out a copy of Modern. I feel like comparing the views of those who do not approve of one card to a whole format you don't like is reductive. Your not going to get a conversation if your opening gambit is basicly another form of "Go play Modern". I do, Lantern rocks.

The "Anti cantrip crowd" is often only talking about one card, it's not like anyone's coming for your Preordains and your Volcanic Islands.

---

I think you, personally, may be talking specifically about Brainstorm, but many of the posters here have made it very clear that they hate cantrips of all kinds. I also disagree on banning specifically brainstorm, as I think getting rid of it will make for more non-games, but your perspective is still more nuanced than many of the anti-cantrip posts we've seen.

I'm not trying to tell people to "go play modern" by way of excluding them; I'm trying to ask those people, "why not play modern?"

The things those players want, in general, roughly align with decisions they have made in modern: cantrips are banned, deathrite shaman is banned, TNN isn't legal, many different kinds of janky, creature-based decks are playable, you can get away with not playing blue, et cetera et cetera. I don't want to kick them out of Legacy; I want to understand why they want to make Legacy something it's not, instead of just seeking out the play patterns you want in other formats that actively encourage them. Every time I consider playing Modern, I realize Probe/Ponder/Preordain/various other things are banned, and instead of complaining about it, I just play a format where they are legal, instead. Why do we need Legacy to be another "duders and removal" format, when there are already at least three I can think of that fit that description?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crimhead

But they're not Maverick or Jund.

The fact that the best non-cantrip decks are Lands, Eldrazi, D&T, and Elves - rather than regular fair decks - just goes to show how terrible this format really is.

---

Why do Maverick and Jund need to be playable for the format to be good?

Moreover, Czech Pile is just Jund with blue instead of red - you have a stack of just "good cards" and try to grind your opponents down. They trade resources and try to make a fair game of Magic. Personally, I think Lands, D&T, and Elves are all vastly more interesting from a strategic/tactical perspective, but if you want to play fair in Legacy, it's not the nature of the format that is holding you back.

That being said, I don't even think Maverick is that bad - I've certainly lost to it, I'm sure others have, too. Shouldn't it even be a bit better in a Grixis Delver-rich meta? (I can't speak to that not having personally played Maverick).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by morgan_coke

Man, Modern would be SO MUCH BETTER if it included IPA, OTJ, and OLN. Like it's not even close how much better and cooler the format would be.

Plus, Astral Slide suckas!!!!

---

I agree, though in my heart of hearts I am afraid that Slide wouldn't be good enough to be competitive :cry:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Question for everyone at large: would you still play Brainstorm as a 4-of if it was a sorcery?

---

A 100%.

If we are honest, most of the key brainstorms played in Legacy are cast during one of your own mainphases anyways.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by taconaut

Moreover, Czech Pile is just Jund with blue instead of red - you have a stack of just "good cards" and try to grind your opponents down. They trade resources and try to make a fair game of Magic.

---

That's a very interesting take. I always felt Czech was more like Sneaky Show, ANT, Miracles, and U/R Delver. Pretty much the other exact same deck with different win conditions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dice_Box

While DRS causes issued with homogeneity in deck building I feel it adds net benefits to Legacy. I think it's effect of suppressing graveyards is often overlooked.

---

I think its effect of suppressing graveyards is often overstated.

I've brought this up before, but: if Deathrite Shaman is such a great anti-graveyard card, why does Elves still roll over and die to Reanimator? It's running a playset of Deathrites, after all.

And the answer is: because the real thing that suppresses graveyard decks is not Deathrite Shaman, it's Deathrite Shaman backed up by free counterspells. Taking Deathrite Shaman out of the format would slightly weaken the free-counterspell decks against graveyard strategies, but they still get to, y'know, counter key spells for zero mana. And the non-blue decks already have to have real hate in their sideboards, which would not change with Deathrite gone.

Meanwhile, I'll spin up the broken record again and remind everyone that Deathrite Shaman's sin is giving greedy mana bases immunity to the things that traditionally policed greedy mana bases (Wasteland and Blood Moon and, to a lesser extent, Stifle). Which in turn homogenizes the format on whatever the best greedy-mana-base goodstuff pile is. Which is what we've been seeing for months now.

It really and truly is time for the little Elf to go away.