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Quote:
Originally Posted by NineHDmg
I have played CotV maindeck at times. It is a cheap, proactive card and a very strong two-drop versus many decks. I've often found that something like CotV or Cabal Therapy is necessary to lower the curve and streamline the deck while keeping the power level high. In my experience however the anti-synergy between CotV and Tarfire matters more than you think, so plan accordingly.
No, I don't really want it against ANT. I was just trying it out. And it was terrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by OlegtheSuper
Dear all
I have a quastion and can't answer it by myself so i hope you could help me.
For what do we need three MWM?
the list posted by Julian
2 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Ancient Tomb
11 Mountain
3 Wasteland
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin lackey
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Tarfire
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Stingscourger
1 Lightning Crafter
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Blood Moon
2 Sudden Demise
Grand Prix Lille 2015 - Trial Winners
Aston Ramsden
Creatures [31]
1 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Legion Loyalist
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
Instants [3]
3 Tarfire
Artifacts [4]
4 Aether Vial
Lands [22]
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
5 Mountain
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blood Moon
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdigger's Cage
I've been wondering the same thing. Played it yesterday, and when I did play MWM, it didn't matter much.Quote:
Originally Posted by OlegtheSuper
i played a (poorly) tweaked version of the deck, but didn't get much results. 1-4 =(
lost to jund depths (lilianas, entombs, loams), burn, MUD and reanimator(forgot to bring stingscourger to the deck =/)
won against shardless BUG
i did try to play relic of progenitus, chalice of the void and sphere of resistence on MD. (just 4fun)
but it didn't play out right.
I did get to cast ringleader on turn 3, so that was pretty nice.
There a good reason right there. It laughs at liliana.Quote:
Originally Posted by seilaquem
Then, blocks goyf like a champ for 3 turns.
Also, all interactions with Piledriver, Gempalm, Prospector and more. Card is really really good. Just need to play the deck accordingly.
Mogg war marshal is an underwhelming card on the surface, but it can be described as the glue that holds the deck together. Like scatmanx said, he blocks goyfs/anglers all day long, has good synergies with piledriver, incinerator, prospector, sharpshooter and basically any card that cares about the number of goblins in play (even krenko and siege gang).
Remember that goblins is (at least the classic version) a deck that can win very quicly with lackey, but mostly aim to outgrind opponents with card advantage AND board advantage. Mogg war marshal is board advantage that comes at a very cheap cost.
With all that said, it is a bad card against all combo decks, and he can be replaced by warren instigator in a meta where you need to be fast. Just remember to build your deck accordingly : for example, i don't think i would play more than two gempalm incinerators in a list with zero war marshals.
Agreed and that is all there is in the whole set. :frown:Quote:
Originally Posted by OlegtheSuper
that set has been pretty disappointing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul7926
but hey, there is a second set. who knows?
Discussions about something being unworthy of discussion.
The 1/2 for 1 had me excited for a minute. I went all half mast.
Looks like dread of night and sulfur elemental are ok vs mentor in our deck.
I won a small GPT for GP Seattle tonight. With the 2 byes, I'm tempted to make the trip out from Virginia. I went 4-0 in the swiss, beating Dark Maverick, Painter, Burn, and MUD. I then beat Painter again in the Top 4 and got scooped to by Fish in the finals (my opponent had a lengthy drive home and couldn't go to the GP anyway). Had we played it out, I felt good about my match-up with the fishies.
Everything played out pretty normally. There was nothing particularly noteworthy except for a strange game that i won against MUD. I mulled to 5 and kept a wasteland-vial-3 goblin hand on the play. I played the vial and then wasted his first land on the next turn. I ended up playing 4 goblins through the vial and never drew another land until the last turn of the game, which was turn 7 or 8. He had a a Lodestone Golem out but I as able to suicide my team in and then cast Tarfire with my one Mountain (and some help from Warchief) to finish him off.
Pyrokineses was awesome tonight, just as it has been every time I've gotten to play Legacy recently.
Here's my list, which is basically unchanged:
4 Lackey
3 Piledriver
2 MWM
4 Matron
4 Warchief
3 Chieftain
4 Ringleader
2 Krenko
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Tarfire
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
1 Pyrokinesis
4 Vial
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern
2 Port
12 Mountains
Board:
3 Ashen Rider
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Minbdbreak Trap
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
The board admittedly needs to be updated. I lost in the Top 8 of a Standard PPTQ in the same store right as the GPT was starting and didn't have time to make any changes. I barely made it in as it was.
The room was uncharacteristically full of fair decks, but my deck felt strong. It was nice to snag a win after losing in the PPTQ.
Today I went to a local legacy tournament and went 3-0.
List
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Matron
3x Goblin Warchief
3x Goblin Piledriver
2x Mogg War Marshal
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Skirk Prospector
1x Goblin Rabblemaster
1x Goblin Chieftain
1x Subterranean Scout
1x Legion Loyalist
1x Krenko, Mob Boss
1x Tuktuk Scrapper
4x Aether Vial
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Lotus Petal
1x Break Through the Line
4x Wasteland
4x Arid Mesa
3x Mountain
3x Rishadan Port
3x Cavern of Souls
2x Plateau
Sideboard
2x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Containment Priest
2x Rest in Peace
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Wear//Tear
2x Sudden Demise
1x Break Through the Line
Round 1: Tin Fins (2-0)
Game 1
Mulligan to five. Keep a Chalice in hand with two lands, Lackey, and a Piledriver. Drop Lackey turn 1. Drop Chalice on 1 turn 2. Opponent scoops.
Game 2
Sideboarded in RIP, Canonist, Containment Priest, Revoker.
Win by vialing in a canonist and overwhelming the field.
Round 2: Death and Taxes (2-0)
Game 1
Luck out game 1. Opponent drew no lands and kept a sketchy hand.
Game 2:
Use aether vial and phyrexian revoker to lock out stoneforge. Then play chalice on 1 to lock out vials, removal and moms. Game came down to Goblin Sharpshooter math.
Round 3: Affinity (2-0)
Game 1
Overwhelm with lackey, piledriver, and chieftain.
Game 2
Turn one aether vial and lackey with lotus petal and a mountain. Turn two phyrexian revoker naming arc ravager. Finish the game with Krenko and a Chieftain.
I have stuck Legion Loyalist into the mainboard due to the impending threat of Monastery Mentor. Considering messing with Lightning Crafter for ETB triggers and being a threat. I really like Chalices and Lotus Petals main board. They provide a good matchup for Omni Tell, Death and Taxes, ANT, Miracles, Burn, Delver etc... Having them turn 1 can end some games for combo decks and hurt fair decks. I do find the lack of removal difficult, but Break Through the Line is a bomb and can really shine in the fair matchups (swinging through goyfs, and large Death and Taxes fields).
Played in another tournament today, and I managed to take down the whole thing and won a Tundra for my efforts. It was a 5 round event with cut to the top 4, and 12-players, so unlike really big events the round of your loss was less important than your opponent's record.
I grabbed the same list I used last time, but made a few minor changes beforehand.
4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
2 Tarfire
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
2 Skirk Prospector
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Settler
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Chrome Mox
12 Mountain
SB
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Blood Moon
There was surprisingly heavy traffic for a Saturday morning, so I got to the card shop about 15 minutes late and was awarded with a Bye for my efforts. More on that later.
R2 - Miracle Grow
G1 Draw - My opponent was a nice guy who was getting back into Legacy. He was playing a RUG Miracle Grow Deck. It played True Name Nemesis, Delver and, yes, Quirion Dryad as the win cons. Having 2 Stingscourgers main was a bonus here (and would continue to be throughout the day) resetting the Dryads. I played a little loose here since I was pretty confident, and it could have bit me in the ass. I was down to six life at the end from TNN and Delver beats, and DTT + Bolt shenanigans could have won the game for him if he could have found 2 Bolts on his last turn. On my next turn I was able to counterstrike or the W.
G2 Draw - I filled the board pretty quickly and won much more decisively. Stingscourger again bounced Dryad.
2-0 Matches
2-0 games
R3 MonoW Prison
My opponent had chatted with me at the end of Round 1 while we were waiting for the other tables to finish. He said he had heard that I had given up on Goblins. I confirmed that it was indeed time for a change. When we got paired up though I'm sure the T1 Mountain made it clear to him that it was a ruse.
G1 Draw - He played Ancient Tomb into T1 Chalice @1. I played Mountain. He played Trinisphere soon thereafter. I was able to build a strong manabase thanks to Ancient Tomb. He played a Magus of the Tabernacle which was a real bitch, but I was able to Stingscourger it and get damage through. He replayed Magus, but I ripped my 2nd Stingscourger the next turn and bounced Magus again, then I was able to Waste him off of Magus mana. I was able to keep pressuring him and when he played Magus of the last time I had enough attackers to run past it for lethal.
G2 Draw - I just sided in Pyokinesis for Tarfire which seemed reasonable. This game was a grind again. He landed an early Ghostly Prison, but I was able to get an Ancient Tomb in play which basically had me paying two life to deal two damage to him with Ringleader. He played Jitte and Mishra's Factory. He equipped Jitte on Mishra's Factory and got two counters on it, killing a Warchief. I had Vial ticking up. He played Magus again. I bounced Magus with Stingscourger, then I used Vial to Champion Stingscourger with Lightning Crafter. He replayed Magus. I burned him with Crafter then let Crafter die to Magus trigger to re-bounce it when the Championed Stingscourger came back. I don't remember the order of how it happened, but I Matroned for Tuktuk to take care of Jitte. He killed two Vials and a Lackey with a Ratchet Bomb. He was down to like 2 life. He played Magus again and I hardcast Sharpshooter with 4 total goblins in play. He Armageddoned. I used the Magus triggers killing my team to generate lethal from Sharpshooter.
3-0
4-0
R4 MUD
We discussed ID'ing but my opponent was 2-1 so couldn't draw in. At this point I was informed that I was 2-1 as well. They had never told me the BYE from R1 was a loss. All day the matchups had shown me with 3 points from R1. That was strange.
G1 Draw - My opponent mulled to 5 and I played terribly by not Wasting the first land he played. This allowed him to power out Wurmcoil. I had 2 Stingscourgers though, so that kept Wurmcoil at bay for quite a while. Then I started taking beats from Wurmcoil and played Skirk and Matron and Lightning Crafter then Kiki-Jiki to combo him out. This game was much much closer than it should have been, but it was very good having an infinite damage combo so I didn't have to balance out his life-gain.
G2 Draw - My hand had Lackey, Pyro, Sting, Skirk, Vial and lands, but I never drew CA and died without gas. I did manage to make a sweet play where he played 2 Lodestone Golems and I double-blocked one with Lackey and Skirk, then I used Pyro to kill both Golems. He drew more gas though and I didn't and lost.
G3 Play - I had a pretty good hand again this game and Ancient Tomb again helped me make moves. I can't remember much for details except that my opponent played Chalice @ 2 to shut off Stingscourger, but I had Pyrokinesis also.
4-0
6-1
R5 ID
Top 4 - MUD Rematch
G1 Play - I had an amazing opening hand. T1 Lackey. He played T1 land, go. T2 Lackey>Kiki-Jiki, left two lands open with Gempalm in hand. My opponent played T2 Lodestone Golem. I copied Lackey in his end step, then Gempalmed his Golem. In my turn 3 I attacked with 2 Lackeys and put a Matron into play, searched up Crafter, put Crater in play, then cast Skirk for infinite damage.
G2 Draw - I had a sweet hand with 2 Vials and Ancient Tomb as my only land, and I thought he might possibly have sided out Chalice. He didn't and played Ancient Tomb, Chalice @ 1 T1, so my plans were symied. I played Tomb and passed. T2 he played City of Traitors, Lodestone Golem. I played Cavern T2 then Pyro'd Golem and cast Piledriver. He tapped and sacked City of Traitors and played another to cast Wurmcoil. I bounced Wurmcoil with Stingscourger and he never drew into the mana he needed to recast it. I won with Piledriver beats + whatever other Goblin I played.
4-0
8-1
Finals Shardless Bug
G1 Draw - He played a bunch of DRS, but I cleared his board Sharpshooter plus a suicidal Lackey+Skirk. Krenko eventually sealed the deal on this one.
G2 Draw - I sided in Blood Moon and landed it T2 thanks to Chrome Mox. Which seemed awesome, except he already had a basic swamp and I proceeded to draw brick after brick after brick and just never drew into any CA goblins while he played a Tasigur and beat me down. I seriously like 2 Goblins this game.
G3 Play - I can't remember much except I played multiple Ringleaders that were very good to me and also Wasted his only G source. Krenko closed out this game too, and I walked with a Tundra for my troubles.
MVPs
Stingscourgers, Sharpshooter, Skirk and Crafter/Kiki combos were all amazing today. So was Ancient Tomb. I'll write some more comments on the build tomorrow.
Your build is interesting. It's weird to see Skirk Prospector, especially multiples, with no Mogg War Marshals. I'd like to hear about that decision.
Congrats! Nice build, like to hear more indepth about your cardchoices. Also, what's that about a loss instead of a bye?
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodjt5
First off, let me say Congratulations to woodjt5 and GoblinTurkey on your success this weekend! When it rains it pours I guess, right? I think you both had more difficult matchups than I did this weekend since you both faced Combo decks. I had relatively easy matches in comparison. 3 of my matches were Prison decks that have no spot removal and they were running maindeck cards we play in the sideboard. That's never a good sign for an opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
I like both of your lists. GoblinTurkey, your Thalia + Chalice MD looks like to could beat the piss out of Combo and Delver decks. Woodjt5 your list is pretty damned streamlined and is probably the most consistent list out of the three of us for gameplay. Here's some more reasoning behind my card choices...
4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
This is, in my opinion, the Core of the deck. These 24 cards provide explosiveness, card advantage, interactivity and cost reduction that makes Goblins legacy viable. Everything else in the deck is just detail. I would never go less than 4 Vial because that is probably the strongest T1 play we have. Lackey is an incredible threat and turns the combat step into a resource, which really makes Goblins special in the format. Piledriver allows you to close out games in a hot second and allows T3 kills against combo. Warchief is better than Chieftain because the -1cmc is just more relevant than Chieftain's +1/+1 (and had much more synergy with Matron and Ringleader and Toolbox Goblins). Matron makes the toolbox build of mine possible. And Ringleader wins games against Midrange decks.
2 Tarfire
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
This is the removal suite of the deck. I initially wanted to run 3 Tarfire since that seemed to be doing very well, but I needed to make a cut to fit Settler in. So I dropped down to 2 Tarfire and figured that was a good call because I could always side out 2 Tarfire for 2 Pyrokinesis against Chalice decks or against decks where I'm also bringing in Chalice (AKA Elves, BUG Delver). 2 Gempalms might seem underwhelming without MWM, but really there is enough goblin-shaped CA in the deck that you can power out a good sized Gempalm without giving up slots to MWM. And Gempalm has always been a powerhouse against fir decks. Also, how many Goyfs are you seeing these days? Not that many, right? It's mostly Pyromancers and Delvers. Well, it's not that hard to have 1 Goblin in play to make Gempalm relevant then, is it?
2 Stingscourgers is probably one of the best things my build has going for it. Stingscourger is so crazy powerful against a host of DTB and random decks. Any time your opponent invests resources to put a fat-ass creature in play, Stingscourger is there to ruin their plans. It is the single best card against Reanimator, MUD and 12-Post, and also has incredible reach against Lands, Miracles and OmniTell. The other great thing about Stingscourger is it is totally decent against the midrange MUs, so you're not giving up much running him there. The only MUs where he really sucks are against Storm combo, and how much worse is he than and other Goblin at that point anyway? Stingscourger was an MVP for me in this tournament, and having a 2nd one won me multiple games.
2 Skirk Prospector
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
This group of cards is probably my favorite part of my build. First off, going infinite with Skirk+Kiki+Crafter is just awesome. It lets you win in situations where otherwise you should not. Your opponent is up 30 life thanks to a Batterskull you can't attack through? Going infinite is a nice way around that. Woodjt5: part of the reason I ran 2 Skirk is so I was more likely to draw it to help assemble the combo. Obviously, if you have a three card combo you'll want the most copies of the cheapest card, especially if that card has a bunch of ancillary uses, like Skirk. I'm also running 2 Skirk because Skirk+Krenko+Sharpshooter is another mini-combo. However, just having any combination of 2 of those 3 cards out at once makes life very difficult on fair decks. Since Skirk is a one-drop and works so well across the deck I had no worries about running 2 copies. It also helps to power out T2 Trinispheres against combo or accelerates more pricey goblins against fair decks.
Aside from comboing off, Kiki-Jiki is excellent in a toolbox build. Obviously copying Gobbos with ETB triggers is quite powerful. Kiki is also excellent because of 1) haste and 2) the EOT stipulation where the token doesn't die at the end of the End Step; it dies at the BEGINNING of the End Step. This means you can copy Piledriver in your opponent's end step, and copy it again in your turn to attack with 2 copies of Piledriver. This turns Kiki + Lackey + Piledriver into a T3 kill. Not so bad.
Krenko, of course, wins the game against BUG decks. That alone makes him worthy of the MD.
Crafter has some excellent synergies with ETB Gobbos. You can use him to get extra uses out of those gobbos while also gaining a Bolt effect. He serves as extra CA and spot removal, plus he goes infinite.
Sharpshooter math wins games and generates tremendous value from your suicide gobbos.
I'm not running MWM because it would eat spots these Goblins fill. MWM is best when it's chumping Goyf. Goyf is becoming a smaller and smaller portion of the format. Plus, any goblin can decently chump Goyf. And having 2 Stingscourgers and Krenko already are generating a lot of advantage against Goyf. Also, there are a lot of midrange creatures MWM does nothing against (Delver, TNN, DRS). Since MWM was only ever good against midrange decks why keep playing it when it's becoming less effective against those midrange decks?
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Settler
I'm not a fan of either of these, but sometimes you're just dead to Jitte or Chasm and you wonder why the hell you didn't have one of these in your deck. I'm also running some acceleration in the manabase that makes their 4cc manacost more reasonable. The 2 Skirk Prospectors serve that role too.
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Chrome Mox
12 Mountain
I love the numbers of this manabase. 4,3,2,1... How beautiful is that?!?! And 12 Mountains is 1/5th of the deck. Also lovely. Having 12 Mountains give you a natural hedge against Price of Progress and it doesn't feed DRS. 4 Cavern is a must, since this is still a free counterspell format and it is becoming a Chalice format too (see my sideboard). 3 Wastes has been advocated by Gobolord and others for a while now, and playing a Settler main gives me a searchable version so I don't miss the 4th and feel like this helps keep the R producing landcount up. 2 Ancient Tomb were excellent all day. They accelerate the pricey goblins in fair matchups and speed up Chalice and Trinisphere in combo. 1 Chrome Mox does the same thing, and running only one nullifies the problematic possibility of running multiples.
SB
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Blood Moon
Trinisphere wins against Show and Tell. Chalice beats combo and Delver decks. Surgical beats fast graveyard combo and Punishing Fire. Pyrokinesis cleans up fair decks. And Blood Moon is obviously bonkers. My manabase helps accelerate out 3Ball, Chalice and BM.
@Chatto - The loss for the Bye was weird. I was 15 minutes late and the odd man out. They had already started and said I had the Bye. Then another guy showed up super late, and they told him he has an auto-loss ofr the round. When R2 started I had 3 points listed next to my name. I was paired down, but figured it was because there were 5 people with winning records (except I didn't realize that there were 12 people there) so someone had to be paired down and it made the most sense that it was the person with the Bye. R3 I had 6 points and didn't ask about my opponent. R4 (of 5) I was going to draw since I thought I was 3-0, but I was paired down again (so I thought) which I thought was weird, but whatever. Obviously we didn't split. It wasn't until after R4 that the tournament organizer told me I had been given a loss R1. The guy running the points and everything was new that day, and it just wasn't clearly communicated how it was working. No worries though. It all worked out in the end.
When it rains it pours indeed.
Took down a 6 rrounds tournament yesterday going 5-1 for 1st place.
Here's the list. I will Post some relevant situations/interactions later.
MANA [ 23 ]
4 Caverns
3 Chrome Mox
2 Pendelhaven
2 Wasteland
11 Mountain
1 Snow-covered Mountain (as placeholder for Ancient Tomb)
CORE [ 28]
4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Winstigator
4 Piledriver
4 Chieftain
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
FLEX [9]
3 Warchief
3 Tarfire
3 Subterranean Scout
SB [15]
4 Chalice
4 Trinisphere
3 Relic
3 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
Anecdote: There was another goblins Player around who asked me if I could sell him Rishadan Ports. I told him I would gladly do so, but I would not recommend playing them at all in a goblin deck. So we agreed that he could borrow them for the tournament and decide afterwards Wether he wanted to buy them. After the tournament he returned them and said he will be looking for some nice-looking mountains instead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
I considered going to this and bringining MUD.