If we're worried that much about anti-affinity cards like Flux, rod, and deed, we could always run Annul in the board.
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If we're worried that much about anti-affinity cards like Flux, rod, and deed, we could always run Annul in the board.
Fuck what you heard, this deck is still alive. Even though we have a brand-new nightmare matchup from Satan's anus, aka Miracle Control (side note here: I fucking hate Terminus. Let me say that again, I FUCKING HATE TERMINUS, I hope Terminus gets terminal cancer. Because we didn't have enough removal on our ass from UW Blade decks with Snapcasters and 10000 StPs), as long as we can focus our sideboards for decks we can actually beat, then I think Affinity has a few opportunities to completely catch the metagame with its pants down as they focus on the red herring eminent threat of the format: little. green. men.
Rant aside, I've still been working at making Tezz Affinity up-to-date in the current metagame. I actually have fun playing with the MD numbers and fine-tuning the sideboard. I think it's because Affinity is the most linear aggro deck that any change you make to it quickly becomes apparent after a few games. When I first played this deck, I shaved Signal Pests or Mox Opals because I felt they were underwhelming or too redundant. Of course, it quickly became obvious how much I needed both cards to be at 4 to be able to have them in my hand as often as possible because I would win games off of these cards.
Anyway, without further ado, here's my latest list:
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
3 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [MBS] Signal Pest
4 [M11] Ornithopter
4 [SOM] Memnite
3 [NPH] Vault Skirge
3 [SOM] Etched Champion
3 [ALA] Master of Etherium
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
4 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
SB: 1 [SOM] Etched Champion
SB: 3 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [M13] Negate
Ok, so not much has changed from the maindeck, except that I changed the 4th Master to a 3rd Vault Skirge. As good as a 3 mana Goyf (sometimes double-Goyf) is, I can't afford mulliganing hands with 2+ MoE when one of those MoE could've been a Vault Skirge that would've made my hander much smoother with Springleaf Drum or much more dangerous with Cranial Plating.
As for the sideboard, alright here's one thing you really need to know: Spell Pierce is good. It's the only 4-of in the sideboard. Do you know why? Provided you can apply pressure to make it so they can't wait until they have 2 spare mana, which is realistic since HELLO YOU"RE AN AGGRO DECK, Spell Pierce answers virtually any hate card you don't want to see resolve. Pernicious Deed? Pierced. Energy Flux? What does that do again, oh wait I don't care, it's countered. Show and Tell? Let me show you this (****). Understand?
Other than that, I switched the Diabolic Edicts for the 4th Etched Champion and the miser Negate, to supplement the 4 Spell Pierces. Diabolic Edict is pointless versus SnT if they Snt Griselbrand. I've tried it, got rid of their Grizzle, had to equip Plating on my MoE to force my opponent to block with Emrakul! And I still lost! The Negate is a placeholder until I think of something better to add. It hasn't come into use yet.
3 Cursed Totems and 3 Umezawa's Jitte are STILL good. Have I not mentioned how this setup makes Maverick, a terribly unfavorable matchup preboard, into a nightmare matchup for THEM? I'm not even going to explain it because we have an even bigger threat to be concerned with: Elves! Except 3 Totems and 3 Jitte have the same crippling effect. I wonder if it was by accident that I added 6 cards to address my absolute nightmare matchups and turned them into byes post-board?
Anyway, that's my 2 cents on the validity of Affinity in the current metagame. Affinity will always be a Tier 2 deck, because some decks have inherent strategies that will always beat you game 1 (Elves, NicFit, even Burn) and there's nothing you can do about it (see: Miracle Control, BUG with Deed). But if you can focus on which decks matter, no post-board should ever be close if you play flawlessly. I never lose to Maverick post-board, because I know what to do each game. I never attack with Champ unless I have a Plating on the field. That's more important than knowing what cards to bring because if I always sent my Champ attacking, I would be caught with my pants down each time when my opponent surprise attacks me with a JItte and crushes my dreams. That's all there is to it, as long as you post-board correctly and play flawlessly, no matchup should be close, it's either you can or you can't.
I love that after 3 years, and a whole new Mirrodin set, I still find myself loving the original Raffinity lists more than any others. They have a resiliency and speed that is hard to match with cards like Memnite. I only find myself wanting to have some Tezzerets vs UW Miracle decks, but whatever. I also love Ravager versus Miracle decks (blank out STP's) so I can't really complain.
Lands: 18
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
3 City of Brass
3 Tree of Tales
Creatures: 28
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Frogmite
4 Master of Etherium
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Ornithopter
4 Vault Skirge
Spells: 14
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast
3 Aether Vial
3 Mox Opal
Sideboard: 15
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
Chalice is freaking crazy in this format. It hurts RUG and UW Snapcaster decks like there is no tomorrow. If you can land a Chalice@1 versus these decks then you are most likely going to win, as you will most likely have some more relevant plays during the course of that game, while your opponents will be suffocating under the pressure. It also doubles as amazing combo protection (Chalice has the benefit of making Storm and Reanimator decks a bit more of a winnable match-up, which will let you steal some games. Did I mention it bends Elves over?).
Revokers have taken the place of Needles pretty easily. I don't really care if they can get hit with creature removal as we are playing an aggro deck and a 2/1 artifact will win you games.
Krosan Grip has never looked better than in a format with Batterskull Control. Like always it deals with all the bullshit. I only run 3 though as a lot of the cards KGrip deals with are handled by Revokers. I'd like to test a singleton Viridian Shaman in this slot. It would be worse versus Deed and what-not, but it can be Vialed in and the 2/2 body would do work.
I would run 4 Macabre's but affinity for artifacts is more important. Crypt is stronger versus Dredge anyhow, and dodges Daze so it's not bad at all. I am tempted to run Relics over Crypt's, but I think the Crypt's are stronger as I woudn't be boarding in Relics vs non-combo GY strategies besides Loam decks (and who the hell plays Loam?). Still the ability to ping a Dredge players seems nice.
The only thing I'm having trouble siding versus is G/w Maverick. I know I have to bring in Revokers and Grips, but I don't know how many of each. Siding versus other decks is pretty direct.
edit; after testing the last hour straight against Maverick and Goblins I have come to realize that Ornithopters evasion is just way more damn valuable than Arcbound Worker. Though I lose the ability to transfer modular counters to my Workers and thus it seems that Ravager becomes weaker I gain another creature with evasion in the deck which really ends up making Ravager stronger as putting counters on any creature with evasion is the best thing you could do with it. Time to hit the skies.
Why run Arcbound Ravager when you already run Master of Etherium, which has the same P/T that you would get with Ravager if you sacrificed your artifacts, except without sacrificing your artifacts. Ravager becomes a lot scarier with 1 or more Disciples, but since Ravager has no evasion, you're not going to get that much damage for Disciple to matter against creature decks such as Goblins or Maverick. Also, Ravager doesn't blank an opponent's removal, it just helps you recover from it. Etched Champion actually blanks spot removal and it can ignore blockers. It's way more resilient than Ravager ever was or will be.
The only advantage of running Ravager and Disciple is recovering better against Terminus, but you're just addressing one set of problems and adding another set of problems that come with running Ravager and Disciple in the first place. Keep in mind that Disciple does nothing against Terminus if you have no Ravager since Terminus doesn't trigger Disciple.
If you insist on running Arcbound Ravager, then I suggest running at least Inkmoth Nexus since it can give you a way to win if your opponent's life is too high, plus it's good against Terminus. And maybe Vault Skirge to race aggro decks or Burn.
you dont run Ravager for any other reason to avoid spot removal, and to hep with chump blocking. I dont even run Disciple at all.
Ravager has a lot of use without Disciple. It just works.
I'm aware Ravager helps 'avoid spot removal' and 'chump blocking.' I'm saying that Etched Champion does the same thing only much better.
Both Master of Etherium and Etched Champion take different aspects of Ravager's functions and perform those functions incomparably better. And Tezzeret is just too powerful not to run in ANY Affinity build.
Ravager turns your opponent's spot removal into permanent damage on your board. Etched Champion does not do that. Etched Champion is pretty good, and I'll admit that I haven't tested him too much as I've been happy smashing face with MoE, but he doesn't perform the same functions as Ravager. Since I run Arcbound Workers my Ravager's are that much stronger as well.
As sweet as Tezzeret is it would require me to warp my deck and probably drop Vials. I love running Vials in this metagame, and since I feel that DoV+Ravager is stronger than Tezz it is only natural for me to run Vials. I've seen countless Affinity builds without Tezz (most that I saw ran Signal Pest and 8 0cc creatures and some Galvanic blasts), so it still works.
What I have noticed in testing is that this deck can sometimes be too fast for it's own good. I'm constantly trying to get the most value out of every single one of my spells, and it's hard to do that in decks than run on synergies (as we play lots of low value cards that gain incremental advantages when played together). Because of this I'm testing Vault Skirge over Ornithopters as I doubt the mana will make too much of a difference and Vault Skirge can swing a lot of match-ups. I could cut the Arcbound Worker's for them, but once again I want some value. Mox Opal makes it so I can go t1 Land, 1cc creature, Opal, 1cc spell so I won't be slowed down too much (comparing this to 0cc creature and Springleaf Drum).
That's such a small difference, compared to the gigantic difference of Etched Champion being unblockable and Ravager having no evasion whatsoever. You said you haven't tested Etched Champion. Test him against your WORST matchups, actually just test him against Maverick alone and you'll see why he's much better than Ravager.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanti
If your opponent's spot removal >= # of creatures you control including Ravager, then Ravager doesn't do anything. This is why Ravager - doesn't - avoid spot removal. With Etched Champion, it doesn't matter if they have an STP, Batterskull token, and Snapcaster Mage, you're going to hit your opponent no matter what and they can't do anything about it.
This is absurd. Have you "played" Tezz before? I'm not even being snarky, your quote on cutting Vials for it suggests you haven't. If I resolve a Tezz and "untap" next turn, I can usually set off his ultimate and deal 12+ minimum. -12 life for my opponent, +12 life for me. That's the minimum. My average is like 16. You would need a Ravager and TWO Disciples to deal that kind of damage.Quote:
since I feel that DoV+Ravager is stronger than Tezz...
That's just his ultimate. I don't have time to explain how useful the -1 ability is. It would take me all night and I'm way too sleepy right now.
And dude, vial sucks. Like really hard. It can't produce mana. Drum and Opal can accelerate into a turn 1 Thoughtcast or a turn 2 Plating/MoE/Tezz. Vial can't do none of that.
You wouldn't have this problem if you weren't running Ravager. You're running 8 cards because of it, Worker and Disciple. Both of these cards are TERRIBLE on their own.Quote:
last quote
Ravager also has bad synergy with Master of Etherium and Cranial Plating. Especially Plating, and that's arguably the strongest card in Affinity. Each artifact you sacrifice makes them weaker.
I have tested Tezz a little, as I said, and didn't like him as much as running Vials. The meta is dominated by two blue decks, Vial is pretty nice to have there.
To say that DotV+Ravager is weaker than Tezzeret really has no basis whatsoever. If you look at the results you will see that Discple/Ravager builds place just as much, if not more, and just as high as the Tezzeret counterparts. If you don't understand why cards like Vial and Ravager are strong in this deck I don't know what to say.
There are two types of Affinity, deal with it.
ps; I'm trying to find room for some Champions in the main but the only cards I could think to cut are MoE's, and I don't know if that would be good. Though MoE does get removed every damn time he comes into play it's nice that if he goes unanswered he wins games.
and here you go, http://www.deckcheck.de/list.php?type=Affinity&format=4
From the link, it doesn't look like anyone has played the DotV+Ravager combination since March of 2011. Then it completely drops off as people started cutting that combination in favor of MoE, Etched Champion, and Tezzeret. I'm not doubting that people can use the old combination to success. IMO, however, I think the newer lists sporting EC and Tezz are the most powerful. Being able to drop Tezz, untap, and win is pretty huge from what I've been playing, and Tezz pretty much does what Ravager+Disciple did, except in a more efficient, resilient, and stronger way. Plus with City of Traitors and the accel from Drum+Opal, you can drop him on turn 2-3 as a must answer.
Using the results argument, are we? Rather than actually address my point. Ok, I took a look at your link. Out of all the 2012 placings and one in May 2011, five placings in a year, there's a "convincing" total of 1 Arcbound Ravager in all of their MDs, and 2 in their entire 75s. I'm not done... I'm going to exhume a grave and recite a eulogy for the dead horse that is your argument.Quote:
To say that DotV+Ravager is weaker than Tezzeret really has no basis whatsoever. If you look at the results you will see that Discple/Ravager builds place just as much, if not more, and just as high as the Tezzeret counterparts. If you don't understand why cards like Vial and Ravager are strong in this deck I don't know what to say.
and here you go, http://www.deckcheck.de/list.php?type=Affinity&format=4
The last placing before May was Mar 2011, which was the latest placing with 4 Arcbound Ravager MD. And the three before those had Ravager MD. As well as Disciple. So up until the beginning of 2011, Arcbound Ravager + Disciple was a staple in Affinity lists.
Hold on, Mirrodin Besieged became Legacy legal on Jan 29, 2011. Hey, did any cards come out of MSB that see play in Affinity? Why yes, Signal Pest and Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas.
After MSB, there were only two Affinity placings that didn't use Tezz up until the Mar 2011. The Jan list was before MSB became legal. But those two lists certainly ran 4 Signal Pests each, so some cards in MSB were immediately influential on Affinity lists.
Since May 2011, every Affinity with the except of one has been running 3-4 MD Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas and how many Ravagers? Just 1 MD, belonging to the deck that didn't ran Tezzeret, which makes sense, because that deck runs WG and can't afford to run UB for one single card.
So clearly, even your results show I'm right. After MSB, Affinity players on the majority dropped Arcbound Ravager + Disciple for Pests + Tezzeret. Because Tezzeret/Etched Champion are simply better. Plain and simple. I should almost thank you for showing me the link of top 8s, except for the fact that you were using it to tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about, despite having broken down each of your points about Ravager and you claiming you haven't tested Tezzeret/Etched Champion much.
I think it's my turn to say: "I don't know what to say." No, I do know what to say: "Stop living in the past and adapt."
By the way im a Zoo player wayback and still adapting and brewing my newly build affinity deck. Here's my build for now and playing tournaments here in our area.
Baleful Affinity
Creatures: 23
4 Memnite
4 Frogmite
4 Master of Etherium
4 Baleful Strix
4 Vault Skirge
3 Etched Champion
Spells/Artifacts/Planeswalker: 22
4 Mox Opal
4 Cranial Plating
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Thoughtcast
3 Dispatch
3 Springleaf Drum
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Lands: 15
4 Seat of Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
3 Glimmervoid
2 Ancient Den
2 Inkmoth Nexus
Sideboard: 15
4 Spell Pierce
2 Cursed Totem
2 Perish
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
Oh my God dude, chill out. I see you take me not running Tezzeret, Agent of Shawon as a personal insult to not only yourself, but to your unborn children and future wife. I'm sorry for that.
Let's take another quick look at the results that I posted; There are a total of 7 Affinity decks that placed since MBS came out.
4 Tezzeret Affinity (two of these are at German tournaments which had 9-12 players)
2 Raffinity w/ Galvanic Blasts
1 Glimpse Affinity
So as far as SCG finishes go (and I'm not claiming that the SCG circuit is the holy grail of competitive Magic but it's better than some random FNM's) other Affinity variants have actually been played MORE than Tezzeret builds. That wasn't so hard to discern from the information posted, was it?
This isn't even touching on the fact that Tezzeret lists were stronger when Mental Misstep was dominating the meta (another card that came out in MBS).
So what does all this mean? Absolutely nothing besides that Affinity is a rubber deck, one's that main-deck is very open to interpretation and change. The only thing ALL of the list have in common is that they all run Signal Pest and 6-8 0cc creatures. That is it.
Anyhow, I'm tiring of arguing. You turned a question about Ravager into a flame war (if you'd like an explanation from someone besides myself on why Ravager is good, and how it can be run besides MoE and Cranial then I suggest you read the opening post of this thread). It is clearly evident by your last post that you are taking this issue personally, so it's not even us discussing lists and their pros/cons anymore but rather you "going to exhume a grave and recite a eulogy for the dead horse that is your argument.". I mean shit, you could have just told me to test the Tezzeret build, which I am doing anyhow. Just on paper I could see some of it's pros/cons (stronger UW Miracle match-up, hard for Maverick to deal with, and a weaker RUG match-up).
@kabards
No Ravager? Check. Moving on...
That's a nice list. Glad to see someone else using Cursed Totem. How's your experience with them?
Might I ask why the Baleful Strix? It's interesting, to say the least.
Your list really needs Ornithopter, not because you need more fliers, but you need another Kobold to capitalize off of Drum + Opal so you can do stuff on turn 1 and curve out MoEs on turn 2. Your list doesn't have Sol lands so you really need some additional mana acceleration so you can cast a turn 2-3 Tezzeret.
Unless you really have a problem with Progenitus, I think running 2 more Jitte is better than running Perish. Jitte is also efficient in killing green mana producers and you can always hold Knights/Goyfs/Ooze/Geese with MoE and Champ. Also, Jitte takes care of your opponent's Jitte, which can easily ruin your day if they gain any charge counters.
EDIT:
@Kanti:
I started taking the argument personally when you said that my argument for Tezz being stronger than Disciple + Ravager had no 'basis' whatsoever, despite me telling you that you would need two Disciples and a Ravager to do what Tezz does with his ultimate. In hindsight, maybe I should have gone into detail about the -1 ability.
But what set me off was your comment: "If you don't understand why cards like Vial and Ravager are strong in this deck I don't know what to say." That is essentially the same as claiming I have no idea what I'm talking about, even though I spent time to actually reason with you and tell you why Ravager and Vial are suboptimal. And now you're suggesting I read the opening post about Ravager and Disciple to read an explanation on why Ravager is good with MoE. Do you really honestly think I've never played with Ravager and Disciple? That's a honest question, because I think that's the source of your arguments, that I don't see why Ravager + Disciple are still viable in Affinity because I've never played with them. Do you not see how you're talking down to me?
FOR CHRIST'S SAKE, I HAVE PLAYED WITH RAVAGER AND DISCIPLE BEFORE. That's why I know they're suboptimal. Based off of you know, experience?
Lastly, rather than continue discussing strategic differences, you attempted to use the classic defense 'well everyone else is running it!" When arguing about what cards to run, strategy should always come first. Results should be used only to back up that strategy, usually with some analysis of the metagame.
I may come off as abrasive, but I rarely take anything on forums personal. Personally, I hate it when someone I'm trying to reason with resorts to "You're wrong!" or "Everyone else does it! That means I should do it!" and does it while talking down to me. That, and "Go play Modern" as a response, particularly because I hate Modern.
If you hate it when people resort to saying "You're wrong!" imagine how I feel ; (. I posted the results to show you that hey, neither of us are wrong. As I said, there are two types of Affinity decks. I'd like you to know that I was not talking down to you though, I was just frustrated in trying to get the point across that DotV/Ravager can, and is, competitive. My bad if I came off like that, and really lets just put this behind us and talk about sideboards or some shit. Or how BADASS Vault Skirge is. Seriously, that card is sick.
My next goal is really to run them each through a gauntlet of Legacy decks, playing 50ish matches vs all the top tier decks and seeing which has a higher win percentage. After that I'll just go with whichever deck has the better numbers. I will definitely post results as I move forward.
On the Jitte vs Perish, go with Jitte. Jitte fights Jitte and is just a house in a creature deck. Don't forget it's an artifact so it has some added synergy to the deck.
For my own experience playing baleful strix it helps me draw what i need easily, it also has evasion a great blocker also for biggies it also eat removals, about the Perish issue vs Jitte, Perish can kill green shroud creatures like Progenitus, Thrun, the Last Troll and specially Nimble Mongoose that Jitte can't even kill. Using Cursed Totem you can shut down 80% of mavericks creatures and you can also avoid KoTR getting Maze of Ith for your Etched ChampionQuote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
I've never had a problem with Progenitus or Thrun, but I can see how you want to address Progenitus with Perish since you can't remove it by any other means. Though I've tried Perish at 2 once, and found I could never draw one in time. Once I tried splitting it with Cursed Totem since I needed more hate if I already have a Totem in play. Now I just run Jitte since it has much wider applications than green decks.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My current struggle with list changes is trying to fit in the 3rd Vault Skirge. Ever since I put in Vault Skirge as a lone singleton, I've been wanting more and more as I won more and more games off of it.
I'm really tempted to cut a MoE but I'm already down to 3. MoE is undoubtedly the most sided-out card in Tezz Affinity. Against Maverick, it can be shamefully blocked by Mother of Runes and Scryb Ranger and against any decks that run Swords to Plowshares, it's such a huge tempo-negative.
However, MoE is too overwhelming against RUG and Burn to discard in the MD. I credit MoE to be my best weapon against RUG. So it has to stay in at least 3, since I have run a 4th Champion to compensate for the 4th Master.
I would cut the 4th Champion for the 3rd Vault Skirge, except I need the 4th Champion in my sb and I don't know what to cut.
Here is my current sb:
4 Spell Pierce
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Cursed Totem
3 Umezawa's Jitte
(2 Gilded Drake
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Aether Spellbomb)
Another dilemma I have which you can clearly see is the 2-slots for my Sneak and Show matchup. But I just need to test the matchup more with Gilded Drake and Bridge. I think Spellbomb is a little too cute.
@Shawon
btw, may i know what is your mind set in all your games? is your mindset just cast and attack then attack i want this to know, because when im using my affinity deck my style is just im waiting the exact time to play all my reliable creatures like etched champion/master of etherium.. how about in your experience are you afraid being countered? cause in my case im too careful when playing e.champion/master of etherium that's why i feel my deck to become slow.. lol
What do you mean? It's easier to answer your question if you give me a specific example. Not all decks with counters play the same, let alone play the same counters.
My mindset is to apply too much pressure for my opponent to handle, either by them not having life-saving cards in hand or not being able to play those cards fast enough. Of course you sometimes have to deviate from this mindset given circumstances of going up against mass removal or counters. But only temporarily, because the more time you give your opponent, the more your pressure wears off which help your opponent get into a winning position.
What I've learned from playing Affinity against decks with counters is I can play around my opponent's counters or I can force my opponent to counter.
Playing around counters is tricky and it can be done in different ways. One way is waiting another turn to play around situational counters such as Daze. Another is playing your card(s) when my opponent is vulnerable, such as if they have no cards in hand or they are tapped out.
EDIT: Forcing my opponent to counter is a viable strategy for the purpose of exhausting their counters, whether to make sure an important card resolves or simply to distract them from answering my board position. For this purpose, I would want to play my less important card first. If it resolves, then that's great because it resolves. If it gets countered, I know I've exhausted one counter and that increases my chances of my more important card resolving, whether I cast that card on the same turn.
Part of the skill in facing counters and winning against them is knowing which strategy to pursue, and you can only improve that skill set by practice.
Hey Shawon,
i have tested your Affinity built and it runs really smoothly, i like it!
It's much better than all Affinity decks i have ever built (always wanted to design all-in builts with Baubles and Slag Fiends and so on, but they just don't work).
I'd like to know which cards you take out for which in games 2/3. Memnite is the first card I would board out, you too?
My current sideboard looks like:
4 Spell Pierce
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Krosan Grip
3 Phyrexian Revoker