[Deck] Zoo

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

I still remember the very first time I posted about Knight on here, and how so many people were against me... I'm pretty happy to see so much of the community has come around to my perspective on it :)

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Funny when that happens. :)

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

Isn't a card that can always outclass most other threats better than something that is a static 5/4? And a turn three 4/4 is not really worse than a 5/4 for our purposes, especially when that 4/4 turns into a 6/6 and then doesn't die to the 4/5 goyf.

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Of course Tarmogoyf is better than a static 5/4! :wink: Seriously though, I haven't played with the Knight yet and I'm not convinced (looking at him on paper) that he does outclass most other threats.

I think one problem is I'm thinking of a third turn drop and perhaps you consider him [Knight] good in mid-to-late game.

It's a shame the Knight doesn't activate the ability through a mana cost or something, that way you could swing in and search for land to make him increasingly bigger. But the way the ability is, you need to sacrifice one turn's attack to activate his ability to make him bigger. Either that or hope to keep topdecking fetches and Canopy.

Edit: Keep in mind the 4/4 is optimal if you fetch three times in your first three turns, and the pumping up isn't a guarantee either.

No, he'd be a 5/5. He starts as a 2/2 and gets +1/+1 for each land in your graveyard. Also, yes you sacrifice a turn of attack, but the next turn you can attack without fear of your knight dying versus a creature that probably would have killed thoctar. And if there is no fear, well you can probably just attack anyway. And yeah, you're looking at him as a third-turn drop, which you can, but you generally have a lot of other great plays to do before he needs to come down anyway.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

No, he'd be a 5/5. He starts as a 2/2 and gets +1/+1 for each land in your graveyard. Also, yes you sacrifice a turn of attack, but the next turn you can attack without fear of your knight dying versus a creature that probably would have killed thoctar. And if there is no fear, well you can probably just attack anyway. And yeah, you're looking at him as a third-turn drop, which you can, but you generally have a lot of other great plays to do before he needs to come down anyway.

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Hmm, you make a good case. :smile: My question to you is, what usually takes out your Thoctar, apart from Goyfs?

Isn't that enough? :P

There isn't a ton else, but occasionally you run into a tombstalker, or maybe a countryside crusher that you're lucky (but unlucky that you couldn't already kill) didn't get too gigantic. Maybe if you play the mirror and have an opposing thoctar/knight.

I threw together a Zoo list to playtest with against some friends, and I can say 2 of Sylvan Library is amazing. If you don't see it, no big deal, when you see one, 8-12 life for 2-3 cards and a fetch to refresh the top 3 goes a long way. I also ran 2 Fireblast, same deal, never see it no big deal, draw into 1 mid game and win. Also good with Knight of the Reliquary which I just ran 2 of. I wouldn't run these cards any other way but 2/2/2. Though a 3rd Library is tempting I think its not necessary.

With the card drawing problem, would Sensei's Divining Top help at all. You can always cast it, and with as many shuffle effects as Zoo runs, seems to me you could find exactly what you are looking for all the time. The draw back being you slow down a lot. Dropping Top first turn is not as good as a first turn Nacatl, especially if it is followed by Pridemage. If you get that going, next turn Top seems pretty spicy.

Library > top in this deck. Sure library has a colored mana and costs one extra, but it's actually much less mana intensive and can give you real card advantage on top of card quality. Shuffle effects are going to help us probably as much with library or with top, so that's hardly an issue.

I was looking at Alex's list and the one thing I do no understand is how the deck survives against combo? Is there any value in running Gaddock Teeg in the side board or maybe Cannonist?

The deck just doesn't survive against combo. These are your options:
1) Try and get a really aggressive start so you can chop their life down to make ad nauseam not good for them.
2) Hope you don't play against combo.

Of the two, 2 works best, but 1 has some shot of working for you. Try and trick them with helix or fireblast.

The biggest issue is that even with teeg/canonist in the board the combo matchup is still pretty sketchy, so there's not much point in devoting those slots to make a horrible matchup only a bad matchup when we could turn a bad matchup into a good one instead.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

The biggest issue is that even with teeg/canonist in the board the combo matchup is still pretty sketchy, so there's not much point in devoting those slots to make a horrible matchup only a bad matchup when we could turn a bad matchup into a good one instead.

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Not necessarily. Teeg is very good versus control too-- stops EE, FoW, Decree, planeswalkers, etc...

Canonist/Teeg split has actually won me quite a few games versus TES. They aren't locks, but they buy you enough time to deal 20 or at least invalidate AdNaus. It's still not in Zoo's favor, but it's not as much of a blow out.

My maindeck is pretty similar to Alix's, but I play this SB:

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Krosan Grip
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Open Slot - could be Path to Exile, Price of Progress, Choke, another Fallout or Jitte. Currently PtE.

I do like Teeg a lot. Thing is, there is literally 0 combo in my metagame; People just aren't playing it right now with the popularity of all the blue decks and countertop. That's why it's usually okay to play zoo right now in this metagame. If Combo starts posing a problem in your metagame for you, start maindecking gaddock teeg or canonist. I once won two rounds against two different combo decks (Glimpse Elves and ANT) in a tournament because I scouted the field ahead of time and maindecked 4 ethersworn canonists. That's the nice thing about zoo, the deck can easily accomodate decisions like that.

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Originally Posted by keys

Not necessarily. Teeg is very good versus control too-- stops EE, FoW, Decree, planeswalkers, etc...

Canonist/Teeg split has actually won me quite a few games versus TES. They aren't locks, but they buy you enough time to deal 20 or at least invalidate AdNaus. It's still not in Zoo's favor, but it's not as much of a blow out.

My maindeck is pretty similar to Alix's, but I play this SB:

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Krosan Grip
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Open Slot - could be Path to Exile, Price of Progress, Choke, another Fallout or Jitte. Currently PtE.

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What's the Shusher for? I can't think of a single match where I'd want it, especially with 3 Grips.

Why not side Orim's Chant for the ANT/Belcher matchup? I was beat first turn twice last time I played against belcher. Chants or Silence seem like the only first turn option.

I don't think chants are a great option. Why? Well
1) Many combo decks play duress/chant themselves. While they may not always use it, they still can, and probably will use them, which negates our chant.
2) To use chant we have to not play things. To not play things means that we're not putting pressure on the combo player, and if they don't have pressure, then they're going to have enough time to win anyway, even if you chant them.
3) Teeg(/canonist) are useful in more matchups than just combo. How much do you expect to run into combo anyway?
4) Combo can go off first turn, but a good chunk of the time I think we'll have that time to get to turn 2, especially if the combo player isn't expecting hate.

Has anyone tried Mother of Rune main deck? I saw it being used at the GP Brighton Legacy SE in the UK a few weeks ago. I was amazed how much impact it had. The player also had two Armageddons main deck. I believe he made top 8 out of a field of 68. I'll try and get the decklist and post it up soon.

(I haven't actually played with mother, but here's why I wouldn't want to.) I'm not sure Mother is the kind of card we want. Our deck is supposed to be very aggressive, which mother is not. You're not going to want to use her to get unblockable damage, since you're probably saving her back to deal with creature removal. The other thing that I think is that I don't consider mother to be a threat--Every card we draw is good by itself, but I really just don't think mother is good by herself. Sure, she can chump block goyf all day, but at the same time I think if we're just buying turns like that that we're probably going to be losing that game anyway. She also doesn't protect from mass removal, which I consider to be a weakness for this deck.

I guess I fail to see how she would be more useful than just playing another efficient beater or playing burn or removal. (I mean, what are you going to cut for her anyway, and do you want to run 4?)

I actually do like the thought of running mother in zoo. And yes, I do consider her a threat. She basically says "Answer me or lose" to every deck in the format; Nobody can use their spot removal, and this format is dominated by spot removal. She serves a similar role as Aether Vial, where no one will let you resolve it if they can help it, because once active, it will dominate the game. Yes, it dilutes your threats a little, but it also makes every threat more likely to stick. The net threats stuck ends up being higher.

Plus, if you play mother, I GUARANTEE every blue deck will force it every time you play it t1 if they can.

How many decks is that protection going to matter against though? Blue decks usually just have 4x swords as spot removal (Or tempo thresh plays bolt and fire//ice, a little more), and other than that we have the mirror which plays a ton of burn. In the first case you're playing a card to shut off only one of theirs, so why not just play another threat to begin with? In the second, well they probably don't need to remove creatures, and if they do then your mother will probably not even live to begin with.

I fail to see how she is actually "Answer me or lose" to every deck in this format. Decks play more than just spot removal.

Not a lot of decks play sweepers right now. Against a blue deck with 4 swords as its spot removal (Plus probably sowers), that's fine for Mother. They now cannot answer your goyf unless they answer mother first; A Kird Ape hardly has such an important effect on the board. And that goes for every deck in the format that cares about the board state and plays spot removal; If all of a deck's removal is dead or requires a 2 for 1 to be usable, that's a really powerful effect.

Now, I'm not saying Mother is the next piece of huge tech that we should all be adopting, but I'd at least consider it as a viable option, and am more than willing to test it out. I played her in one tournament where I ran a ranger of eos toolbox, but I never drew her so it never mattered. I may try her out again now to see if she really is good.

Why nobody plays Pithing needle in the board? i run the 4x