[Archetype] CounterTop

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Originally Posted by BackDr0p

Personally, I've come to dislike this thread more and more, due to the fact that lists being posted are all over the place. Most of which, completely disregard what has been said before hand. If significant change is being made to a successful archetype, such as this one, at least make sure that there is proper explanation of card choice.

It would really help to have a sub-thread for the discussion of individual splashes. Kinda like we did in the past with the old threshold treads. It would help organize ideas, focus (for once) and let us finally make progress.

I had something like this in mind:

[DTB] CounterTop

UGWR (Supreme Blue & Supreme NO Blue)
UGW (Bant NO)
etc...

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+1

I Totally agree with you.

IMO, UGW and UGWR have become the canonical choices for the current meta(s) (and I agree with that choice).

Also, posts along the lines of "bla bla, here's my list" should at least justify why players should consider the new list and not simply go with the established build(s).

That being said, people who want to debate UGB or other splashes (that does not include me) should be able to do so without clogging the underlying UGW and UGWR discussion.

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Originally Posted by psu42

I totally agree with you. I'm just saying, some lists will just lose Natural Order and change only 4 cards...where some lists change 15.

4 compared to 15 is subtle in the way I'm trying to compare here.

I don't know who it is up to when it comes to splitting threads, but it would really be beneficial here.

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In that sense, I see where you are going, and that's true.

Nihil Credo is the one who created this thread. So, it would be up to him to make the decision. I'll try to get a hold of him via PM sometime today.

Right, Elspeth will now be on my to-test list. However, any ideas on my current state of the deck? The deck is surprisingly resilient to Ichorid, after sb being something like 17-6 in my favor.

3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [UG] Island
1 [UG] Forest
4 [B] Tundra
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
4 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage

Don't you do the same? I mean, in what way does your post contribute to the discussion about Countertop? The reason I posted my list is explained above (at the original post). I believe that White should be included in EVERY countertop list.

The reason WHY I posted my list is pretty easy to explain and I think I already said it in my post. I believe that there is ONE list that is thé best in your metagame. In my metagame, I believe we all share the same metagame, Elspeth, Knight Errant is superior to NO/Prog.
Let me give some arguments:

Elspeth is:
hard to kill (only vindicate can kill it)
makes your clock faster
can make infinitie 1/1 blockers
kills your opponent Elspeth, Knight Errant (something we can consider to happen atleast once)
less vunerable to agro
makes all of your creatures so much better (especially Rhox War Monk)

Natural order can be stopped more easier by destroying the creature he or she wants to sacrifice. Elspeth doesn't require a creature on the board. It's broken enough without.

I think the reason why people play Progenitus is because it's a 10/10 beast. Something they think is cool to have. But is it in fact the best choice? I don't think so.

I've been playing the Supreme Blue + Progenitus build for the last few weeks, and you may be right to a degree about people just liking putting a 10/10 into play. I mean, the majority of the reason I took the deck to AU instead of my trusty Zoo deck was because I wanted to put progenitus in play... ;p but while I respect the power of Elspeth, I feel like she serves a different function than NO does. While Elspeth can provide a very large advantage with less set up, she does not end the game as quickly or as definitively as Progenitus does. She can be killed by opposing burn and creature rushes, too, which is a serious concern. You can't play her in the face of an enemy who is currently ahead by more than a little. Progenitus, though, since he is on his own so powerful, can pull you out of terrible board positions as long as you still have ~5 or so life or a chumper or two to hold the fort while he does his work. It's the opponent's complete inability to do shit about him once he's resolved that makes him such an asset.

I dunno, that's just my take on the matter. Elspeth's definitely good, and I don't blame anyone for running her; I just prefer NO.

Cenarius,

I'm a little confused as to why you take it for granted that the deck needs a "finisher" at all. Tarmogoyf and friends normally do a pretty good job by themselves from my experiences. I'm not saying that the deck is "better" with or without a finisher; I'm merely trying to suggest that it's something that still bears consideration. Reviewing tournament results and decklists it would appear that my confusion is warranted because decks are doing well with and without the 4-drop "finishers."

That being said, Elspeth and Prog have their pros and cons for sure. Elspeth is relatively tough to kill for a lot of decks, but most decks have no way at all to kill progenitus. Progenitus provides a faster clock, pitches to force of wil and can flat-out steal games that you'd otherwise lose, but is pretty awkward when drawn (until it's BS'd away). Progenitus demands a bare minimum number of green dudes, and it opens you up to being 2-for-1'd if NO gets countered. Really, the question that needs to be answered is: "What issue am I addressing by adding these finishers? Which games are they winning for me which my deck wouldn't already win? What am I sacrificing by making room for these cards?" I believe that the answers to those questions, which are certainly dependent on your metagame, will lead you to decide which of the two, if any, is appropriate for your deck.

Of course, the other valid point to consider is the prescence of 4-drops in your curve for countertop, which I believe is the true reason that these slots are appealing. If that is the real driver behind this decision, then other strong 4-drops ought to factor into your analysis as well, such as Sower of Temptation, for example.

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Originally Posted by GUnit

Cenarius,

I'm a little confused as to why you take it for granted that the deck needs a "finisher" at all. Tarmogoyf and friends normally do a pretty good job by themselves from my experiences. I'm not saying that the deck is "better" with or without a finisher; I'm merely trying to suggest that it's something that still bears consideration. Reviewing tournament results and decklists it would appear that my confusion is warranted because decks are doing well with and without the 4-drop "finishers."

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Sure Goyf and friends can finish games, but do they always finish games? No. There are times even when you play Goyf and a couple other dudes where you simply don't have an advantageous position, and you must keep your dudes on defense. Due to the relatively slow nature of CB in comparison to average speed of the deck it will face in a random match, odds are likely the CB deck will be the slower one. As a result it will generally play more defense than offense.

A deck that is slower than other decks *must* have a reason to be slower. While CB/Top can let you establish control and then play a long, drawn out grind, this is effectively putting all your eggs into one basket. If your opponent is able to deal with the CB/Top soft-lock, or if you don't even manage to see the 2-card combo, it is wise to have a back-up plan that will still work effectively and let you turn around losing games.

A finisher like NO->ProGen allows you to play defense early, buy a couple turns to develop the mana base, and then have a way to turn a stalled or unfavorable board position into a win. It allows you to win games that "you have no business winning." Furthermore, the ability to randomly NO on turn 3 will steal a number of games by allowing you to become the aggressor. If you are playing a deck (like Zoo) that is not designed to play defensively, you can just win the game right on the spot.

In a deck with lots of card manipulation, it is also wise to include cards to dig for. Sure you can cast a Ponder and see: generic land, generic counter, generic creature. But if you are playing NO, every once in a while you see cast a Ponder and see: generic land, generic counter, oops I win.

A finisher allows you to turn around games you are losing. It helps provide inevitability against an opposing deck you can't crack easily. It allows you to turn card manipulation into a win.

So has CounterTop basically come down to two builds at this point: Bant Aggro and Supreme Blue? I've been going over the GP qualifiers for Madrid, which have been happening all over Europe for the last couple of months and I keep seeing Noble Heirarchs in half the lists and Firespout in the other half. There are a few Baseruption entries and a few Dreadstill, but basically CounterTop seems to be dominated by the main two archetypes above.

Anybody seeing different at this point?

Thanks for explaining your point Cenarius.

IMO Elspeth and NO-Prog serve different functions and their inclusion is a metagame dependent choice.

My personal experience is the following.

There are decent amounts of Merfolk (and more recently Goblins) in my meta. I therefore chose to play Enigma's UGWR Supreme U list (and tested variations of it).

I initialy chose to play Progenitus since submarine attacks (vs Merfolk) or swarms (vs Merfolk or Goblins) can kill Elspeth rather quickly.

When I decided to opt for NO-Prog in my list, I was hoping for the following (in the Merfolk/Goblins MU):

1. Whiping the board with Firespout and then either resolving NO-Prog for the win or having enough guys remaining after the flames for the win.
2. Resolving NO-Prog before the board is too infested for the win.

In practice, that rarely happened.

I mostly attribute this to the fact that UGWR S.U. has a fragile manabase and greedy color requirements, namely the tricolored Rhox War Monk, the (GG) for NO, the relatively high cost of NO when facing manadenial (and possibly Port) vs. fast decks, (R) can be denied rather easily to trump Firespout.

In general MUs, the deck can manage to back its combo, but it may fall flat in the face of mana denial.

Anyhow, I have no general recommendations to this day since I want to get more testing done, but I'll post something if I find a relevant alternative/solution.

I don't like elspeth at all. I also don't believe you need extra finishers if you already have goyfs and war monks. If you don't want to run the NO package try cryptic command in the 4cc slot. A friend of mine ran a u/g/w list with cryptics and he said they were fantastic. I've never tested it since I the uuu is too hard to get in my ugb list since I run 4 basics and wastelands.

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Originally Posted by andrew77

I don't like elspeth at all. I also don't believe you need extra finishers if you already have goyfs and war monks.

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Goyf and War Monk are not finishers.

In fact, a single Goyf on the other side of the board will hold off both a Goyf and War Monk on your side of the board.

I really don't think double-colored cards belong in 4-color counterTop - which is why I stick with either my own version of UWGR or play UWG w. NO.

When I started playing Supreme Blue I ran Elspeth over Natural Order. I personally found her too easily removeable to creature swarm decks (merfolk, zoo, goblins) and that the deck lacked a true finisher.

After adding NO I could control the game, come out of nowhere and win. The card IS pretty much unremoveable and only requires, generally, 2 turns to win then. Yeah, they can remove your creature...but they can't do it in response or anything so it has to be preemptive, which would happen a lot anyway with all the Swords flying around.

And Dryad Arbor fetch EOT generally helps solve this problem as well.

I guess if your meta isn't infested with merfolk, dredge, zoo or goblins, Elspeth might be good.

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Originally Posted by Rico Suave

...A deck that is slower than other decks *must* have a reason to be slower. While CB/Top can let you establish control and then play a long, drawn out grind, this is effectively putting all your eggs into one basket. If your opponent is able to deal with the CB/Top soft-lock, or if you don't even manage to see the 2-card combo, it is wise to have a back-up plan that will still work effectively and let you turn around losing games...

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This is why I run Dark Confidant. He either gets you the missing part of the combo OR removal/blockers/counterspells to survive till you do. He also folds to cards that are bad against the deck in general (bolts etc). The value of this is nothing to joke at. If your opponent sideboard Krosan Grip and ReB he's dies to cardadvantage from bob. If he board creatureremoval he will fold to cb.
Either way you will get a more drawn out game, favoring you. To put it this way... I have a few eggs in a lot of baskets.

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Originally Posted by Rico Suave

...A finisher allows you to turn around games you are losing. It helps provide inevitability against an opposing deck you can't crack easily. It allows you to turn card manipulation into a win...

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As I wrote in my last post I rather not get myself into "loosing situations" in the first place. I prefer wincons with something else attached, like Vendilion Clique. Sure it takes a few turns more, but it get the job done in a less shaky fashion than Elspeth/NO. Why do most players need a plan-B for racing? I don't get it.

IF you want to curve with Hierarchs and monks (just a really, really bad tarmogoyf) I can see why you need something in the end of the curve to make up for the "bad" cards you play. I rather not play them in the first place, that's all.

So, how do I constantly win against Zoo without either firespout or war monk? Bob, goyf and cb are still great. You just need to get some tempo from your sideboard. I board 3 submerge and 4 blue elemental blasts which are actually better than both spout and monk!

...might aswell explain why (or atleast why I think so) before I get flamed. A good Zoo player will not overextend into nothing more than a 2-1 from Firespout. Costing 3 mana it's still a good deal from them. Also, spout does nothing against the other half of creatures in the zoo deck, or bolts. And War monk.... A zillion eggs in a very fragile basket. G1 he is good against Zoo, I admit that. But postboard there are reb/pte to take care of him. Again, he costs 3 mana (very shaky mana too!)

I really dislike War Monk out of 3-color lists, as I think it's just really greedy.

I do like the idea of having a big, hard-to-kill finisher, but Goyf and V. Clique have worked out well so far in every matchup except control in my experience playing Supreme Blue.

Hi guys, I played Supreme Blue and then changed to PRO Bant and NO CB UGW ( with hierachs , cause i think T2 wall of roots or blosson is not a very good play), PRO Bant seems very hand opening dependent and loses to merfolk and goblin as much as SupremeBlue. NO CB UGW and SupremeBlue NO also loses due to the fact that uncastable NO , RWM or Firespouts loses you the game very often cause NO without creatures are bad and Progenitus some times can't race aggros also the fragile 4color manabase makes hard to cast NO and Firespout without being disrupted in the early 2-3 turns or the low 3cc curve is problematic.So that's why I changed to this UGW list:

2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

2 Engineered Explosives ( agains zoo , merfolks , goblins , and very versatile)
3 Ponder
2 Threads of Disloyalty ( amazing agains aggros like zoo or evagreen or rocks , also steal merfolks to hit unblockeable)

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Trygon Predator (this may be Vendillion , I just want a 3cc blue card)

I'm still developping the sideboard cause my metagame is very mutant.

So what do you guys think about it?

@ Shimi

Engineered Explosives - I'm not sure if explosives is the sweeper you're looking for; against Goblins, its a great T1 play v Lackey or Vial but they play a variety of CMC cards, all of which need to be destroyed post-haste. The CMC 3 slot is their best and it would take you at least until T4 to blow them up, which may be too late (if swords isn't in the mix). Against merfolk, again T1 is good v Vial but their biggest threats are CMC 2; If you intend to hold your ground landing goyf as a blocker is a good idea and there is anti-synergy with EE in this case (which is bad w/ CB too). In this regard I don't actually see this doing any better vs Goblins or Merfolk than builds with Firespout

Threads of Disloyalty - Removing 1 creature from a merfolk swarm probably wont be doing much for you, and it doesn't even touch most of their lords which fall at CMC 3. Against Eva Green/Rock builds, they are for sure going to be bringing in K Grips (also good vs Explosives) so there isn't much value post-side... Moreover, Qasali Pridemage is everywhere these days so it is more fragile than you think.

My overall impression is that if you ever get behind on board position you are gonna have a tough time pulling out of it with narrow control/sweeper cards than with a more blanket approach like Firespout or even WoG

You need a finisher for a few reasons:
1) Counterbalance stalls. They don't happen as often as they used to, but a lot of lists people used to run just flat out have no way to break a CB on both sides of the table. Most CB lists have Daze/Spell Snare, Force and CB. Being able to play a Natural Order or an Elspeth or a Baneslayer Angel to get through Counterbalance is huge.
2) Ground stalls. If both players have Tarmogoyf on the table, it's super hard to get through. This is why flyers have been run going back to Mystic Enforcer and Fledgling Dragon.
3) Beatdown decks. Zoo and Merfolk have adapted to the point where they can beat counters + Goyf most of the time. You need extra hate, be it Firespout or Progenitus or Elspeth.

@MrShine

Thanks for your opinion , as i said it is under tests , EE is a great to deal with vial when in your hand , it slot is like Trygon in SupremeBlue but more versatile , that's why i use it ( i also open 2 SB slots).Threads is also versatile againts many deck (but not very effective against Goblins and Merfolks) and can take Qasali which is very strong play against Zoo , or saving your CB.
With this list i want to gain some time , slow down the aggros so i can find StP + Goyf or RWM to deal with merfolks.
Firespout is incredible good , but agains merfolks( daze + cursecatcher + waste + stifle) it seems too slow or hard to play and against goblins a simple EOT SiegeGang or RingLeader can ruin your T3 or T4 Firespout and that's why I'm looking for a answer to this decks and NO + Progenitus is not the way to deal with Goblins and Merfolks.

I'm not worried about Zoo , SupremeBlue list have a very favorable MU against it.

If Threads isn't good against merfolk or goblins, which (correct me if i'm wrong) are your worst matchups, then why run them? You should look at improving your difficult matches before playing some offbeat tech that may or may not improve matches that are a little better for you already. This goes double if you aren't concerned about zoo. Plus, i know zoo players like to keep their mana open so stealing a pridemage might not actually happen all that often as they can most likely sac it in response. While I'm not sold on the control-magic type effects, have you tried Sower? It would also give you a CMC 4 for CB...

I agree that you need a proper finisher.

You say that Supreme U has a good matchup vs zoo, and you are looking for something vs merfolk and goblins... It seems to me that Firespout is what you are looking for (it also sweeps NO critters). I would recommend that you run a red splash and practice against the LD (mefolk, gobs to some degree), because its going to be an issue regardless if you are running red or not. At least you will have the ability to pull off a sweeper should they stumble on the LD, where you might not otherwise...