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It gets better when you also bring in Thruns. I found, for me, the best plan was -3 Countryside Crusher, -3 random for +2 Thrun, +2 Grip, +2 Grudge. Thrun was a beating, and Crusher gets terrible when they can just bounce something you've worked so hard to get big.
-Matt
What's your build right now, and what's your meta like?Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
My build is a bit out of date, but I'll be changing it up soon.
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Taiga
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Wasteland
4 Dark Confidant
3 Countryside Crusher
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Terravore
4 Mox Diamond
4 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
2 Sylvan Library
4 Terminate
1 Entomb
2 Punishing Fire
2 Maelstrom Pulse
Board was:
3 Extirpate
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
3 REB
2 Thrun
3 Perish
I'm thinking:
Same-ish manabase
4 Dark Confidant
3 Countryside Crusher
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Mox Diamond
4 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
2 Punishing Fire
2 Sylvan Library
3 Terminate
2 Engineered Explosives/Devastating Dreams
2 Maelstrom Pulse
Board:
2 Perish
1 Virtue's Ruin
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
2 Dreams/Extirpate (if Dreams isn't main, it's Extirpate)
2 Noxious Revival
3 REB
1 Worm Harvest
My meta is a ton of Stoneblade, the occasional Goblins, Zoo, some Maverick, 0-2 Reanimator, and sometimes High Tide.
-Matt
Has anybody tried playing less creatures and more planeswalkers?
I think that Liliana of the Veil and Ajani/Garruk/Koth are all cards that have good synergies with our gameplan and deed/explosives/dreams.
The problem with the planeswalker plan is:
1) You are already creature-light, and the creatures you are running are all good.
2) Pretty much all the planeswalkers you could run, save Lili, are too expensive.
3) The deck's curve is such that you don't want to raise it any more. Many versions of the deck already have an unhealthy reliance on Mox Diamond to not get destroyed in the early game.
4) The planeswalkers you could run aren't that synergistic with the deck (Lili excepted).
I can kind of get behind Liliana as the deck can easily break the +1 symmetry, but four-cost planeswalkers are just too much. There's only one real set of ramp cards in the deck (Mox Diamonds), and Loam is a huge mana->value conversation engine in the deck anyway and brings a lot of the same endgame inevitability role planeswalkers do.
Liliana's main drawback is the BB in the casting cost. That isn't easy to get, especially in the face of Wastelands.
What do you guys think about faithless looting, and where would you fit it in?
I don't think it does anything, and I wouldn't fit it in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Facethemindsculptor
A one-shot draw effect like this is not going to be very good in this deck. You don't get a lot of mileage out of discarding cards, and Looting is raw card disadvantage even after you've flashed it back (drawn four cards, discarded four cards, lost Faithless Looting for +4, -5 cards). You could use it to filter lands out of your hand to pump Crusher, but that does not make it worthwhile considering you already have a number of ways to pump Crusher. Dark Confidant and the Loam engine are fine for draw in this deck, and if you want more, Sylvan Library is better than Looting because it has more synergy with dredge (multiple dredges per turn, every turn) and is reusable.
Looting doesn't do enough.
I'm not sure why people are so hesitant to run 2-of Sylvan. Dredging for free multiple times a turn isn't good?
-Matt
Why isnt anyone playing Chalic of the Void in their Aggro Loam decks nowadays? :)
I'm running 4-of chalice main. Against some decks it is just an autowin on 1, most of the time it just protects my knights from swords.
A number of reasons have been covered in this thread. To save you going back and reading through the last 10 pages I'll try to summarize as best I can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boman
1. The statistical likelihood of opening with 2x Land, Mox, Chalice on the play is very low.
2. The longer you wait to cast Chalice, the worse it gets. Dropping it turn 1 on the play is by far the best, as it effectively blanks most other decks' first turn, giving you time to durdle around like you need to and get your engine going. After that, how effective it is varies wildly from deck to deck.
3. Multiples are almost always dead draws. Unfortunately, to maximize your chance of landing one early, you have to run 4, so you're really increasing your chances of missing business spells later in the game.
Also, not running Chalice makes it easier for you to run your own one-drops. Many Aggro Loam decks are now running spells such as Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, and Top.
In particular, I find Top as a strong card in this deck. It's nice to be able to see the top three cards of your library when deciding whether or not to dredge. You can also manipulate your library to put lands on top for Dark Confidant and Countryside Crusher.
Thanks for the help. :)
But how does this deck fair against combo decks without the chalice then?
It loses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boman
In all fairness it usually lost to combo when playing chalices anyway.
[slightly topical rant]
I really don't understand what people's obsession with the combo matchup is. You are a midrange Jund deck with little to no disruption and a clunky, high-end clock. What do you expect the combo matchup to be like?
The only times I've ever beaten storm with this deck were when the storm player fizzled/died to Ad Noz or once where I got turn one Chalice at one, turn two Tarmogoyf, turn three another two Tarmogoyfs and Chalice at zero (ie, nut draw). Your clock is just not fast enough to kill them before they dig out of it, and if you're playing vs. TES (Burning Wish) or some kind of non-storm combo deck like Reanimator or Sneak Attack or whatever, Chalice gets pretty bad after they cast their first Brainstorm/one mana tutor.
[/slightly topical rant]
This weekend I'll try to update the OP with a current list plus some common arguments that get brought up every other month or so (Why not Chalice / blue splash / white instead of black / etc.?).
Ok well thanks for the explanations anyways, appreciate it! :)
Hey guys, here is the recent configuration me and a friend have been playing around with to pretty good success. Since the last time I posted, I decided to move from 4 colors to 3 cutting the white and swords to plowshares from the deck. Some considerations I have been thinking of were Scavenging Ooze, Wormharvest, and Liliana. The Liliana and Wormharvest seemed like win more cards with the exception of Liliana helping out a lot in the combo matchup. I think the Ooze isn't as good as Tarmogoyfs, most due to the 4 Leylines in the side, and Tarmogoyfs gain so much value from the dredging of loams that I didn't want to replace them with a card that requires more investment. Let me know what you think.
Lands (26):
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Wasteland
4x Forgotten Cave
3x Tranquil Thicket
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Mountain
1x Forest
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Badlands
1x Taiga
1x Bayou
Creatures (12):
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Countryside Crusher
1x Terravore
Spells (22):
4x Life from the Loam
4x Mox Diamond
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Punishing Fire
3x Seismic Assault
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Engineered Explosives
Sideboard (15):
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Choke
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Pyroblast
2x Krosan Grip
2x Devastating Dreams
Don't knock Ooze until you try it. It poops all over Snapcaster, can gain you a good chunk of life (super important in slower decks), and can get seriously huge, really fast. I think you're making the mistake of seeing it just as a graveyard hate card, where it really isn't super effective. Think of it more as a good aggro guy with a seriously abusable ability. Also don't run it out into bolts.
I also play G/W Maverick and I just switched him to a two of instead of a Ooze/Tarmogoyf split, so I know how useful he can be. I just find in my version of Aggro Loam I would rather be casting Loam or cycling thicket then keeping it open for Oozes ability. So my thought process is I would rather spend an initial investment of 2 mana on a beater than two mana on a beater with a useful ability that you have to put more resources into. I do like the life gain from Ooze though but I just don't see him being better than Tarmogoyf in a deck where casting Loam gives you so much advantages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese