Printable View
I do see, because for me it was like saying "You are asking for help, but I'm here to answer that I won't help", when his obvious reason was budget. Maybe that's just me, tho.Quote:
Originally Posted by sporenfrosch1411
Anyways, sorry for rambling, no need for further discussion on what is rude or not, imo.
Thanks a lot sir..most appreciated.:laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
When would you ever worry about getting rid of Persecutor?
I have never had any single game, where i could not get rid of him if i wanted to. 3 Cabal Therapy (Flashback), 4 Innocent Blood, 4 Gatekeeper of Malakir makes a total of 11 cards.
All those sacrifice effects serve the dual purpose of beeing removal versus your enemy and giving you the possibility to get rid of Percy. It seems the symbiosis of card choices is beeing really misunderstood here. I never saw any of the spells as a disadvantage or suboptimal choice just to play persecutor. All the cards work very well on their own, and additionally serve in a symbiosis.
But hey, i'm really getting tired of these basic card choice discussions. You don't discuss Piledriver in a Goblin build, do you?
The problem here is, we get stuck at this over and over again. As soon as there could be evoluting something useful, someone comes up with a craprare in a bad list because of budget / personal preferences or whatever reasons might be all keep discussing that nonsense for some pages and then the thread is dead again for a week. Don't get me wrong, i think its perfectly ok to play on a budget, but why would you play Legacy on a budget? Does that make any sense? I hope this won't lead to some "tournament play is expensive, or not?" discussion - because, quite frankly, it just is - so get used to it. Just because this is a Tier2 deck, everybody comes up with totally random, inefficient choices and justifies them by budget reasons. I don't play Canadian, if i can't afford Force of Will, do i? I don't play Goblins if i can't afford Piledrivers, i don't play Zoo if i can't afford Tarmogoyf's - why does everyone think he can play TheGate when he can't afford Persecutors, Bitterblossoms or Wastelands? They are defining this archetype, they are essential............
I can't say for sure whether it is right to discuss budget alternatives for a deck at its thread, maybe the moderators could tell us that. I know the discussion should be kept in competitive levels, but I also believe you can make competitive decls even without some of its piece, or using a budget piece instead. I understand you say that Persecutor is like the cornerstone of this deck, since it was all built around running him, but I can see it playing with Nantuko instead of Persecutor and having good results, as for it was the card I played before playing Persecutor and was just fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by sporenfrosch1411
Also, noone is saying you should drop Persecutor. He was asking for an opinion, for people that are used to play the deck and could enlight him. I don't see how that opinion could destroy the discussion, and don't see how denying this opinion just because it is budget-based will make the discussion any better.
And for the record, I never said I had problems dealing with Persecutor, just stated that he could, for example, run Inquisition instead of Cabal or whatever 1cc removal instead of Innocent Blood, since he wouldn't have to worry about his onw Persecutor in that case.
Yes, yes it does? Budget discussion might not belong in this thread, but this comment is asinine. Also I dont see anything wrong with someone asking "I only have money for one of the cards right now, which one is more important to get first". Throwing a hissy fit about it is silly.Quote:
Don't get me wrong, i think its perfectly ok to play on a budget, but why would you play Legacy on a budget? Does that make any sense?
Whatever, play what you want. Build green Decks without Tarmogoyfs because you can't afford them and go play Krosan Cloudscraper as a target for Natural Order because Progenitus is too expensive - i won't bother anymore about this, because THIS is truly silly.
Can we get to something useful now?
Quote:
What bothers me most at the moment is the combo matchup.
TES is such a consistent deck, even with Turn1 Duress, Turn2 Hymn i could not manage to win. Pretty much the same applies for Doomsday, against which you at least can board in Pithing Needles and put them on Sensei's Divining Top.
What's your plan versus those decks? Do you just go with the fact that it's a bad matchup or do you have any good plans?
I think that Thorn of Amethyst should be the card for us against Combo. Some discard on their acceleration early turns, than drop this.
And another thing, I decided to put one Profane Command as a tech card.. And it does kinda pretty well.
Profane Command is interesting, what do you use it for?
Thorn of Amethyst has not done very well in my testing so far, i often found a 2 mana permanent to be too expensive and versatile. But i will consider testing it again.
Now do you see why I don't post in this thread anymore?Quote:
Originally Posted by sporenfrosch1411
At any rate, good to see people still working on it. While I've personally abandoned the deck all together, it's still good to see work being done on it.
Against combo you have a fair amount of tools maindeck with duress, therapy, wasteland, and hymn. If you aren't willing to mulligan down to having a turn 1 discard and maybe another one for turn 2, then just throw your combo mathup in the toilet. You have a better chance ruining their hand with discard that trying to board in cards that are narrow to the combo matchup, that you also can't tutor for. You need to mulligan to the right hand to take as much from them as possible. If you fear combo that much I could see running therapy #4 and some more discard in your board, but it's still an uphill battle without trashing your board to focus on beating combo.
about Profane : It obviously sucks early game, but it gets online with 4 mana, like, recurring Nighthawk/Bob and maybe taking their random creature out. I like it because it has a bit of everything and it's really powerful mid/late game.
And c'mon, we can dedicate some SB space for combo hate. Same thing with Dredge, you can't play against it without some graveyard hate in your opening :]
Another card to consider against combo is extirpate. Especially if you already run duress + hymn in the main.
It can give you ridiculous victories with plays like "waste your underground sea, extirpate it".
It offers chances to nail the "i win" card.
It allows you to shuflle your opponent's library in response to the "i draw" top effect, or after an end of turn lim dul's vault (hint : target brainstorm in such situations).
I've always loved it in black decks against combo matchups.
I don't agree - I'm on the bus that says Extirpate should be reserved for Loam and Reanimator. If you want an effect like that, just run Sad Sac. It's 3 mana, sure, but Extirpate isn't much good turn 1 either, is it?
Hollywood had some success with Soul Spike in the board.
How about Chalice of the Void @0 against storm combo? Could even be cast @1 and you would still be able to cast more than half of the list. If I recal correctly, it is widely used by goblins.
Also, could Dark Ritual be a SB option against combo? I assume you take all your creature-kills out against combo, which is like 6-7 spots if not counting Malakir.
I'm afraid i have to agree with sporenfrosch, if you want to go budged, build SuiBlack. if you already have shades, jittes and Bobs, your'e good to go. There's really nice stuff going on there with equips + Dauthi creatures. So, if you can't afford it - don't play it, because otherwise if you will start cutting key advantage cards like BB and Percy, you'll end up with a very bad deck, while playing a full SuiBlack will get you much better results until you you'll be able to purchase missing cards for TheGate. So don't be so resentful, it's natural to get such reaction. Go to gobbos thread and try to suggest playing gobbos on budget, you'll propably will be redirected to monoB gobbos thread or something ;]
peace
It effectively reduces your SB by 4 slots though. And what would ramp into? Discard? I'm thinking I'm going to stick 3-4 copies of Sadistic Sacrament in my SB; if I can destabilize them with discard, and follow it up with a Sad Sac, they shouldn't be feeling too hot. And it's decent against Landstill variants and other decks that rely on Jace as well. So, for Storm, i'd probably keep something like this in my board:
3-4 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Cabal Therapy
Go For the Throat should find its way as a four-of in this deck, without question. It is arguably the best spot-removal ever printed for Black and it hits just about every relevant creature in Legacy. It's that good.
With that in mind, here' my latest list.
The Gate 2/2/2011
Lands:
18x Swamp
4x Wasteland
Creatures:
4x Abyssal Persecutor
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Dark Confidant
Spells:
3x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Bitterblossom
3x Hymn to Tourach
4x Go for the Throat
4x Duress
4x Innocent Blood
3x Cabal Therapy
Sideboard:
3x Sadistic Sacrament
3x Dystopia
3x Pithing Needle
3x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Flex Slot
You'll notice that the list is 62 cards. I found myself liking the 18 lands + 4 Percy configuration, so 61 cards is fine by me, but if anyone has other suggestions, so be it. So, really, what card should I shave off? I was thinking the 3rd Jitte could become the flex slot in the side. Speaking of the flex slot, what should it be if not Jitte?
Do you really need to play that much removal in this deck. 4 Innocent Blood seems excessive when you already play 4 Go for the Throat, 4 Gatekeeper of Malakir, 4 Vampire Nighthawk and 3 Jitte all of which effectively deal with creatures. Also, I would absolutely play 4 Hymn to Tourach.
I would cut some Bitterblossoms and some Innocent Bloods in order to get free up room for the 4th Hymn and also to cut back down to 60 cards.
I could see cutting a BB to get down to 61 cards, but I'm happy there, honestly. And the 4th Hymn seems excessive, unless there's a critical mass of Storm or Lanstill variants in your meta.