[Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

This is the list I'm testing right now. As usual for my tests in this meta it is light on discard and Liliana is absent. More counters and removal are the trade-off.

Lands (21)

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Soldevi Excavations
3 Wasteland

Dudes (12)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Dig (11)

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Dig Through Time
1 Sylvan Library

Counters/Removal (16)

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
2 Dimir Charm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Disfigure

SB is up in the air at the moment and one of the options is a transform to CB/Top with half of it.

I've started a Twitter (@Miracle_Dude) series called #FridayLegacyDecklists, where I post new Legacy decklists every Friday. Additionally I'll post these lists in the respective deckthreads here on TheSource as well, with the hashtag #FLD. I will not have the time to go into detail in advance, but if you have any questions just let me know :)

#FLD

4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Wasteland
1 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Life from the Loam
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Scavenging Ooze
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Disfigure
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal
3 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Dig Through Time
1 Verdant Catacombs
SB: 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Hydroblast
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll


Greetings

Cool idea mate.
Will you be elaborating on the decks on twitter or are these just take it or leave it lists? Of course would be much more interesting read with some explantion on how you settled on your specific 75.

-jedi

Hey,
thanks, what I will not do (right now) is writing up a primer for everything. But as soon as ideas pop up I'd gladly answer them. :)

EDIT: But I could see myself writing more about the lists, to be honest. Just not today. :)

Greetings

Ok, yeah thats was what i was thinking. No primer needed, those exists here already and would be an enourmous task, for which there would be only a very small return!

But some explanations as to why you chose something that differs from the concensus builds would make it a much more interesting read than list xx. :D

Look forward to it
-jedi

Ah fuck it, why not now.

Quick version:

This deck tries to (ab)use cards that break the symmetry of the tierdecks = Counterbalance+Night of Souls Betrayal. These cards can't be left unattended by most decks and provide enourmos advantage one way or another. The creature suite was chosen to suppress TC/DTT while being off the radar in regards to removal and being immune to Night of Souls Betrayal. Combo isn't really prevelant right now and this deck is better vs Token than vs Combo. The board, on the other hand focuses on shoring up these MUs. Only 2 DTT as I want to minimize the impact of other dedicated hatedecks vs TC. Additionally, there is Life from the Loam that works just as good as TC while being way easier to cast and adaptable. Wasteland is a card thats pretty good now. Casting them every turn is nothing that modern decks can deal with. Cephalid Colliseum is a pretty spicey and unknown loam target and allows you to do pretty nice moves.

This deck preys on decks that prefer to rely on Delver and Token (like Pyromancer/Mentor) while also having access to Counterbalance, which is literally good in every MU. postboard it thrives to rip Miracles and Combo apart.

So, but now back to work. :O

Greetings

I Played my version of Gfabz Sultai control deck at an 8 man legacy tournament over the weekend and made the finals going 3-1-1 my draw was into top 4 my loss was in finals.

List:61

Creatures:10
4 deathrite
4 goyf
2 true-name

spells: 31
2 top
1 sylvan library
4 abrupt decay
1 golgari charm (so cash vs UR delver)
2 lilly
1 disfigure
4 thoughtsieze
1 inquisition
4 brainstrom
2 jace
3 cruise
2 daze
1 ponder
1 counterspell
2 counterbalance

Lands;20
1 swamp
1 island
1 tar pit
2 delta
4 misty
4 verdant
2 bayou
2 trop
3 u sea

SB:15
1 needle
2 spell bomb
3 spell pierce
1 pulse
1 golgari charm
1 blue blast
1 darkblast
1 submerge
1click
1thrun
1 ooze
1 deed

r1 BUG Pod Fit 2-1
game one: discard back n forth till i stick a gotf and counter his GSZ and pod, kill him
g2: super grindy, Jace does work until he drops deed into grave titan
g3: super grindy again I get jace n lilly going and tarpit him to death

g2 UR delver 2-1
G1: I win die roll he chokes on a 2nd and 3rd land drop double goyf does work
g2: he goes really aggro until im at about 8 then rips a price off the top to kill me
g3: t2 sylvan library gets me so far ahead while my goyf holds off a delver he cant flip n a swiftspear, i have abrupt decay after he goes HAM on pumping two swift spear and go deed.

r3: drew with maverick

top 4: same UR delver player 2-0
game one i get counter top
game 2 he gets 2 young pyro with like 12 tokes i cast charm and attack with 2 goyf 1 truename

I now can split 30 cash or 40 credit or play for a force of will or nothing
I say fuck it and play vs maverick both games i get stuck on 2 lands and spend most of the game topping to try and hit a 3rd. I lost 2-0

deck was great i would cut the counter top package (2 top, 2 counterbalance) for maybe more free or 1 mana spells as i felt i couldn't always hit my cruise for 1.

Creature:
2 true name
4 shardless agents
4 strix
4 deathrite

Spells:
2 thopter foundry
1 sword of meek
3 thoughtseize
2 liliana of the veil
2 jace the mind sculptor
2 dig through time
4 force of will
4 abrupt decay
4 brainstorm
2 ancestral vision

Lands:
1 creeping tar pit
4 under seas
3 tropical
2 bayou
2 verdant
2 misty rain forest
4 polluted delta
1 forest*
1 island
1 swamp

Sideboard:
3 chills
2 brain freeze
3 flusterstorm
2 leyline of the void
1 toxic deluge
1 maelstrom pulse
2 golgari charm.
1 jitte

this is the list i swept a tourny with i kno it falls under more a sharldless list buts its a midrange version

Now that Treasure Cruise is gone (good riddance) I definitely think this is where I want to be for a while now. BUG has so many great cards that work in a control type shell in a pre-cruise meta that I'm excited about Legacy again. I've been testing a list that I know looks strange perhaps, but has been quite powerful against the gauntlet we've been running it through. The sideboard is ridiculous at the moment though due to some maindeck inadequacies that I've run into against a few decks. The list I have right now is a 61 card list.

4 polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Thespian's Stage
2 Wasteland

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
2 Crop Rotation
3 Force of Will

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sylvan Library

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

3 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Touch

2 Dark Depths

SB:

1 Force of Will
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Envelop
2 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm

A lot of the games end rather quickly with a 20/20 flying indestructible guy just killing your opponent on turn 5. Pernicious Deed is insane in most matches, and where it's dead the discard/countermagic shines. Tombstalker is always easy to cast and against non white decks is usually GG. Dredge is terrifying to face as is really fast combo. Burn is almost unwinnable so the Leylines were added to the board. Jace has been in and out in favor of a third Sylvan Library and a Maelstrom Pulse, but Jace is just too good. Thoughts?

I'd like to get some opinions on a general question: is CounterTop worth running (outside of a Landstill/Loamstill shell)?

From my brief testing, I don't think it is. Fabiano has had success running it, and while he's obviously a better player than I am, I feel like having CB/Top takes up slots that can go to other countermagic (or just other interaction) and is both decision and mana-intensive in ways that make matches take longer than they would without all the spinning. In a deck that this deck can be almost as slow as Miracles, that's not a trivial cost.

The other big reasons I think the CB/Top package doesn't belong is that we're already a highly decision intensive deck without adding Top spins and CB triggers to the mix (unlike UWx, we have more Sorcery speed interaction, Sylvan Library, Jace, and Liliana to contend with, and these are all interacting with each other in the mid-to-late game), and the fact that Counterbalance has become palpably weaker now that BGx decks packing Abrupt Decay are regaining popularity and chaining cantrips into Treasure Cruise isn't a thing anymore.

Gentelmen (Ladies?) Tasigur is like Goyf 5-8 in this deck. Wake up and smell the dunkin donuts, it's time to deckbuild! This is not a new tombstalker, its a 4/5 for 1 that's made for a control deck. Has it just not hit everyone yet? Decklists, decklists. Bring it on.

heres what I envision at this point...bug delver that can switch to countertop or vice versa. Althoughim not sure when id want to make the switch and when not to. here's a list, lets talk about it. critique please! lets make this work

Creatures (14)
• 3 Deathrite Shaman
• 4 Tarmogoyf
• 3 tasigur
• 4 delver

Lands (18)
• 1 Misty Rainforest
• 4 Polluted Delta
• 2 Tropical Island
• 3 Underground Sea
• 4 wasteland
• 4 strand
Spells (28)
• 4 force of will
• 1 Sylvan Library
• 3 Abrupt Decay
• 4 Brainstorm
• 4 Daze
• 1 spell pierce
• 1 flusterstorm
• 1 liliana
• 3 ponder
• 2 Disfigure
• 4 stifle


Sideboard
• 1 abrupt decay (hits RIP)
• 2 needle (Merfolk, DNT, fetches …better with thoughteize, +watch for vial)
• 2 graffdiggers cage (dredge, reanimator, elves)
• 2 Golgari Charm (Maverick, miracles, RUG, DNT Watch for RIP , CB, TNN)
• 1 liliana ( Maverick, rug,bug, DNT show and tell)
• 2 toxic deluge (Maverick, RUG, DNT watch for TNN)
• 3 cb 2 top (burn, miracles, SNT… not against vial) or 4 thoughtseize 1 flusterstorm

Other options: hymn, Nihil Spellbomb (reanimator), true name

Greetings All,

btm10, Dragonslayer_90, and I did some testing over the weekend. Here is the list that I was running:

Maindeck:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
1 Disfigure
4 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
2 Counterspell
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
3 Dig Through Time
1 Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs


Sideboard:
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Disfigure
1 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
1 Zur's Weirding
1 Null Rod
1 Echoing Truth
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Flusterstorm
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver

Admittedly my sample size is small and only against one deck. Of 7 games against UWr Miracles, the above list won 5. The 2 that were lost were do to Ruination being resolved. This or Blood Moon would be pretty devastating. It is possible another basic or two could be added to the mana base. The deck felt very powerful. I think that there is some tinkering to be done with it yet. My first impression is to cut a Dig Through Time for a second copy of Ponder. I think this will smooth out the draws a little bit and make the list more consistent. I was not that impressed with the Snapcaster Mage... I am not sure if he will get cut but my eye is certainly on him. Additionally, I think that in this shell I could get behind 2-3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang to act as additional threats and to possibly generate some card advantage in the mid to late game. Here he may compete with the DTTs but could potentially help to fuel them and/or give SCMs food for flashback. This might be getting a little toward the "Magical-Christmas-Land" end of the spectrum. I think the sideboard is pretty stock except for the Ashiok. I think it could be a real thing... exiling cards with the possibility of making Delvers and Goyfs for free? Sounds pretty solid. Unfortunately I was not able to generate any data on this yet. Please let me know what you guys think of the above list and thanks for reading!

Sturtzilla, I like your list. I've noticed you were running 20 lands and 1 Ponder. Did you find yourself getting mana screwed much?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Holiday

Sturtzilla, I like your list. I've noticed you were running 20 lands and 1 Ponder. Did you find yourself getting mana screwed much?

---

Well I only played 7 games. I will probably be tuning this over the next few weeks and trying out some other match ups. Of the 7 games mana was only an issue in one where I kept a 2 land hand and a Brainstorm. I managed to Brainstorm-lock myself without finding a third land. I ended up drawing out of it and winning the game, but had I been playing against a more aggressive deck, I likely would have been dead. I think 20 lands is a decent starting place, especially as one is a Creeping Tar Pit and the whole "It comes into play tapped" thing. It is possible that a land could be cut or added... 18-22 is probably the right range for the lands depending on how high your average CMC is.

Thanks for the reply. I'm asking because I think this deck is well positioned right now and I have most of the cards. It's nice to hear it has a good matchup against Miracles because, with U/R Delver fading away, I think this will be the deck to beat.

I'm wondering how well it handles against Canadian Thresh (aka Temur Delver or whatever the fuck the kids are calling it nowadays)? What do you SB in against it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Holiday

Thanks for the reply. I'm asking because I think this deck is well positioned right now and I have most of the cards. It's nice to hear it has a good matchup against Miracles because, with U/R Delver fading away, I think this will be the deck to beat.

I'm wondering how well it handles against Canadian Thresh (aka Temur Delver or whatever the fuck the kids are calling it nowadays)? What do you SB in against it?

---

Well I haven't put other decks to the test yet. RUG traditionally struggles to beat through opposing Tarmogoyfs. That coupled with solid disruption and 20 lands should make it a reasonable match up. I think Disfigures could come in from the board to help with Delvers, Golgari Charm might be worth trying as it give another way besides Goyf and Lili to take out Nimble Mongeese. We could go after their graveyard with Spellbombs to slow them down but I am not sure about that plan. Finally this is a place where I would want to test Ashiok. Milling them out and stealing their win-cons to slow them down seems great. Every time you mill three and hit a creature, that is one less removal spell or counterspell that you will need. Furthermore, supposing that you get to use his second ability, that is one more removal spell your opponent will need. It is rather variance based, but when you hit it is super great value. This is all while working towards a win on a non-traditional axis.

I've been working on a list since the Cruise banning, because I feel that BUG has the most raw power out of any shard. I feel like it was meant for control.

Maindeck:
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 TNN
1 Tasigur

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Counterbalance
2 Tops
1 Golgari Charm
1 Empty the Pits
2 Toxic Deluge

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs


Sideboard: A complete work in progress
1 Golgari Charm
4 Thoughtseize
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Flusterstorm
1 Counterbalance
2 Gravehate cards
1 Toxic Deluge


Empty has been great in testing. A black entreat the angels, just wish they came into play untapped. I also feel like I need to make space for a second tasigur. I feel like Lili would also be good. I like the counterbalance and tops so far, but if I had to cut them, I would replace them with lili and tasigur.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sturtzilla

List that I was running for reference:

Maindeck:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
1 Disfigure
3 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
2 Counterspell
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
2 Dig Through Time
1 Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs


Sideboard:
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Disfigure
1 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
1 Zur's Weirding
1 Null Rod
1 Echoing Truth
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver

---

So I ran the above list at my local shop's weekly Legacy event last night. We played 5 rounds and I was able to get some games in between rounds. I ended a less than impressive 2-3. I think some bad luck both in terms of match ups and in terms of draws led to this record. Also there are some considerations that would likely make the deck stronger in an open field. I played against Lands round 1 (1-2), 5-Color Birthing Pod round 2 (2-1), Sneak and Show round 3 (0-2), Moggcatcher round 4 (0-2) and was awarded the Bye in round 5. So not a particuarlly exciting set of results. I did play against UWR Delver in between rounds. In a total of three games in that matchup I was 3-0.

To break down the above results further, I think the Lands match up is going to be rough unless you have early Deathrite Shamans and counterspells to stop their engine. Otherwise your countermagic and discard are really only delaying the inevitable. The Birthing Pod deck was just a value good stuff deck and I think the BUG Control deck's good stuff is likely just better. The game that I lost here could have easily been a win if I had hit a timely piece of removal. The Sneak and Show match up didn't feel terrible. I put him on Belcher game 1 due to a shaky start on his side of the table. This led to me playing more reactively than likely was optimal. I think this match up was very winable but I misidentified what I was playing against. I recovered from Emrakul hits in both games to be finished off both times by a top decked creature the turn before my lethal combats. The Moggcatcher match up seems poor. I fought through 3 Blood Moon effects in game 1 only to die to a Goblin Rabblemaster.... yea that actually happened. Game two was very similar. The matches versus UWR Delver felt favorable. I was able to establish control in all of the games and then win with either Goyf or Tasigur beats.

Areas to improve: I think the deck wants access to at least one of each basic land. On top of that, Wasteland would have been great in all of these match ups. So finding room for 2-4 of these would be nice, as would a Life from the Loam in the maindeck or sideboard. I felt that the Tasigurs overpreformed. I found myself activating him a few times and gaining some value there. The Thoughtseizes; however, felt very weak. I think bolstering the counter/removal packages would be a better fit to how I intend to play the deck. Anyway I am interested to hear what you guys think. Thanks for reading.

A super (excessively?) redundant version of this just Top 8'd the SCG IQ in Chicago. The big thing I've noticed playing this deck was that as you added 3rd and 4th Digs Liliana got progressively worse, and the guy who won clearly took your notes on Thoughtseize. I think I'm going to make some changes to the IQ list and pick it up for some testing.

The following list placed 15th at last SCG. Is BUG Control on a rebound? Recently i have made the switch to BUG Delver (playing mostly non-blue GBx variants), but i actually don't like to play Delver of Secrets in a deck and see that card as a necessary evil. Playing Jace MD is awsome. On the other hand the high velocity and tap-out style play of BUG Tempo has serious appeal. In that sense this deck lacks Daze/Delver, but offers DTT and Baleful Strix in return. Also the inclusion of Umezawa's Jitte is really nice, since it is a more "permanent" removal then Disfigure. It offers lifegain to, in which BUG has a shortage of. In this list Wasteland is not included. Wasteland can be backbreaking in combination with Hymn, Deathrite Shaman and Liliana. But is a 20 land manabase able to support 2/3x Wasteland? And why no MD Tasigur, the Golden Fang? And TNN over Clique?
Any thoughts on the deck?

BUG Control, Matthew Scott, 15th SCG Richmond:

Creatures (13)

3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

Planeswalkers (3)

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (20)

1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs

Spells (24)

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize

Sideboard (15)

1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Chill
2 Disfigure
3 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Umezawa's Jitte