[Primer/Deck] High Tide

I here you feline.

I agree with most of what you mentioned. Remora is a much more useful tool than I think you give it credit for. Storm which took two top 8 slots in scg indy cannot beat that card. It's very useful vs bug rug miracles omni-tell sneek n show reanimator and esper deathblade. Last weekend I played it against lands and it drew me 5 cards. I also played it against a blue white delver and again it helped me to combo off. When I've attempted to combo off and use the majority of my spells ( I could be doing it wrong btw ) if I don't get there per say I am dead in the water. This has happened numerous times against rug. Having 5 lands casting high tide to a responce of daze or pierce then paying 1 leaving 3 or two leaving 2 mana open or countering. Then they respond with another counter or let you proceed into a turn about via situation 1 and then try and counter again. Fluster storm helped us out a bit post board but still having the mana and right cards/counters to fight these war's hadn't been easy. That is until I tried remora out. Yes I realize the upkeep cost and it's never really been an issue. You will have mana open for eot brainstorms or going the ponder rout main phase. Playing the card this past weekend a situation happened like this. Upkeep in response to the trigger cast high tide. Response with spell pierce. Trigger drawl I pay the two. Respond with brainstorming. Trigger I drawl a card and let brainstorm resolve. Daze still in response. Trigger drawl a card forceing daze pitching a card I drew off remora. High tide resolves. Still in response cast turn about targeting me. Turn about resolves. Don't pay for remora and kill them. I have done this bare minimum of 10 times maybe even 20. Same exact scenario but with different responses. With that all said I do plan on testing out the deck but to go even further and gather more information about cards choices. The main deck bounce has been in there for dnt decks. I really hadn't thought of to many things id rather have then that. Remember this is an old list that I still have sleeved so me knowing there was results with spiral tide recently were non existent. I do plan on making changes though and trying out the no wish no candle version. After debates I'm going with the same version as yourself -1 swan song +1 spell snare. Might take the pierce out as well for a second snare. Snare is to good right now not to try out.

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Originally Posted by esthoril

As for your deck, there are several things I don't like about it (and I may or may not be right about them :wink: )

Maindeck remora. The best thing about combodecks is having an awesome game 1 against the field because your deck is pure efficiency and they have dead cards. After side, they have less dead cards, and you lose some of your efficiency because you have to board things in. By playing maindeck remora, you already play a sub-optimal engine game 1. Not something combo wants to do. Much better off to change them to Preordains. You really don't want cards game 1 that are dead 50% of matchups and dead 100% of matchups postspiral.
Maindeck bounce when you have Cunning Wish. There are hardly ever things we want to bounce game 1 and if so, you still have acces to it through wish. This is another maindeck slot that can get better use.
No 4 turnabout. If you don't play it in the sideboard, you should be playing the 4th one main before adding more candelabra's. Candle does not pitch to force, candle does not tap your blue opponents lands EOT (and even costs you more mana to untap 3+ land). It makes games vs blue decks much much easier. Also tapping all of D&T's creatures so you don't care about Mother when you want to snap/bounce a hatebear. Being able to bounce your candle(s) for even more mana is win more in games that are already won. Having candle when you really want to tap your opponents lands EOT actually makes you lose games because they have too much counters available. :edit: Another thing, T5 facing lethal, 5 lands, turnabout, spiral and you may very well win. 5 lands, candle, spiral and you are simply dead.
Meditate Outdated. DTT does a much better job, does it cheaper and is also very useful prespiral. T4 scroll for DTT, play it EOT, untap, win.

Eric Becker's Wish/Candle-less list hasn't been played a lot, yet it already made some T8s in larger tournaments. Something I haven't seen more traditional lists (like I too used to play) do in a long time. So even if it feels wrong to do so, put aside your feelings and try it out, so you have actual proof for yourself whether it is good or not, rather than some gut feeling. I know I did and it won me a tropical + 4 fetchland right away losing only a single game during 7 rounds of swiss.
It may not be the perfect list yet for the current meta, but it sure does feel very powerful and puts up results.

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High Tide seems like such a cool deck. I remember combo winter, and I remember when WOTC banned Tolarian Academy to try and stop combo decks, and the first High Tide deck showed up at Pro Tour: Rome.

I have been pricing this deck on MTGO, to see if I can pick up the cards soon.

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Originally Posted by Isaac

I agree with most of what you mentioned. Remora is a much more useful tool than I think you give it credit for. Storm which took two top 8 slots in scg indy cannot beat that card.

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https://www.griffinalters.com/media/...a0027d56d3.jpg

Please...

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Originally Posted by Isaac

I agree with most of what you mentioned. Remora is a much more useful tool than I think you give it credit for.

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I know how good remora can be and I have played it myself. My point was that you want your deck to be as streamlined as possible game 1. And remora kinda spoils that as it is a dead card against numerous opponents. Post-side, go ahead :)
As far spell snare, I played 1 spell pierce, 1 swan song, 1 flusterstorm main last time just to have a bit diversity. Not sure about spell snare as it doesn't really stop opposing counters (thus helping us to combo off). Spell pierce is a hardcounter if the opponent is tapped out (which seems to happen quite a lot with a little help from turnabout).

Against a good ANT player, we are the underdog. We cannot realistically beat a T1 swarm if we don't have force.

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Originally Posted by esthoril

As for your deck, there are several things I don't like about it (and I may or may not be right about them :wink: )

Maindeck remora. The best thing about combodecks is having an awesome game 1 against the field because your deck is pure efficiency and they have dead cards. After side, they have less dead cards, and you lose some of your efficiency because you have to board things in. By playing maindeck remora, you already play a sub-optimal engine game 1. Not something combo wants to do. Much better off to change them to Preordains. You really don't want cards game 1 that are dead 50% of matchups and dead 100% of matchups postspiral.
Maindeck bounce when you have Cunning Wish. There are hardly ever things we want to bounce game 1 and if so, you still have acces to it through wish. This is another maindeck slot that can get better use.
No 4 turnabout. If you don't play it in the sideboard, you should be playing the 4th one main before adding more candelabra's. Candle does not pitch to force, candle does not tap your blue opponents lands EOT (and even costs you more mana to untap 3+ land). It makes games vs blue decks much much easier. Also tapping all of D&T's creatures so you don't care about Mother when you want to snap/bounce a hatebear. Being able to bounce your candle(s) for even more mana is win more in games that are already won. Having candle when you really want to tap your opponents lands EOT actually makes you lose games because they have too much counters available. :edit: Another thing, T5 facing lethal, 5 lands, turnabout, spiral and you may very well win. 5 lands, candle, spiral and you are simply dead.
Meditate Outdated. DTT does a much better job, does it cheaper and is also very useful prespiral. T4 scroll for DTT, play it EOT, untap, win.

Eric Becker's Wish/Candle-less list hasn't been played a lot, yet it already made some T8s in larger tournaments. Something I haven't seen more traditional lists (like I too used to play) do in a long time. So even if it feels wrong to do so, put aside your feelings and try it out, so you have actual proof for yourself whether it is good or not, rather than some gut feeling. I know I did and it won me a tropical + 4 fetchland right away losing only a single game during 7 rounds of swiss.
It may not be the perfect list yet for the current meta, but it sure does feel very powerful and puts up results.

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I have not been around for quite some time (no internet connection), so my reaction arrive a bit late: I agree with you about the need to play a wishless list. For a long time, I had the impression that Wish was one of the weakest cards of the deck, a necessary evil... It seems that Erik found a way to get rid of them efficiently thanks to DTT. I also agree with most of the changes you did to Erik's list, even though I still hate to have two kills in the main deck, and I hate BF which is ONLY a kill...

Hi everyone,

I'm thinking about building High Tide but without Candelabra's, because I don't want to spend 200€+ (or how much they are) on a card that's only viable in this deck. Is it still viable then? And I heard about versions that are able to combo off on instant speed but what I don't get is that you don't have the Time Spirals then, don't you miss them too much to combo?

Thanks.

Hi,
You should have a look at the Solidarity thread. That's the deck you are talking about. However, I would play High Tide without Candles (with 4 Turnabouts and Faeries if needed) before trying to go the Solidarity route... Indeed, Time Spiral absence is felt...

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Originally Posted by TiMeWaLk

Hi,
You should have a look at the Solidarity thread. That's the deck you are talking about. However, I would play High Tide without Candles (with 4 Turnabouts and Faeries if needed) before trying to go the Solidarity route... Indeed, Time Spiral absence is felt...

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I would like to play the best deck based on High Tide without Candles. If that is High Tide then I'm gonna play that, if that's Solidarity I'll play that. And why is High Tide or Solidarity better than the other?

High Tide is better, in terms of results, because you can play sorceries: Time Spiral, Merchant Scroll and Ponder for example. Playing full instant and having access to Reset is no enough in comparison.

Okay, I'll go for High Tide then. I'll brew a list.

EDIT: Nevermind, I'll just take a list from the internet and start playing with that. I don't know enough about the deck yet to play a card more or a card less from specific cards.

A list worth sharing, isn't it esthoril?

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9035&d=251480&f=LE

9 Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

4 Time Spiral
4 High Tide
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Turnabout
4 Brainstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
2 Dig Through Time
1 Pact of Negation
1 Sleight of Hand
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Spell Pierce
1 Wipe Away
1 Flusterstorm

SIDEBOARD

1 Spell Pierce
1 Wipe Away
3 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Defense Grid
1 Snap
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Swan Song
1 Spell Snare
1 Annul
1 Rebuild

What would you cut in this list if you want to include the Candles? I guess the Sleight of Hand but what else? I'm just trying to get a bit more knowledge of the deck.

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Originally Posted by Bosaapje

What would you cut in this list if you want to include the Candles? I guess the Sleight of Hand but what else? I'm just trying to get a bit more knowledge of the deck.

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Pact.

Played this new list to a mediocre 2-2 at a local event. I hadn't played the deck in forever and made some questionable mulligan decisions and play calls in the two rounds I lost. Beat Reanimator (!) and Bant, lost to Belcher and Elves.

4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
4 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 High Tide
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Snap
2 Turnabout

4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
4 Time Spiral
2 Dig Through Time

1 Pact of Negation
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
8 Island

Sideboard

1 Flusterstorm
1 Brain Freeze
1 Snap
1 Rebuild
1 Blue-Sun's Zenith
1 Turnabout
1 Dig Through Time
3 Krosan Grip
1 Tropical Island
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Defense Grid

The list performed quite fluidly except when I kept bad hands or had to mull into oblivion for FOW against Belcher. I'm likely going to cut the Pact as I'm not sure it's necessary anymore - also I would like another Flusterstorm in the 75. I would also like to work Echoing Truth back into the sideboard, auto-losing to Empty the Warrens is not an option in my meta. The green splash out of the board is for the difficult Miracles matchup as I'm tired of auto-losing to turn 2 Counterbalance.

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Originally Posted by esthoril

Against a good ANT player, we are the underdog. We cannot realistically beat a T1 swarm if we don't have force.

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AFAIK, I have never lost with this deck to ANT, TES, or any Storm deck (Belcher is another issue altogether due to speed). Carefully play the control game against them and you will win. Merchant Scroll -> Countermagic is pretty good in this matchup. High Tide is an underdog to Griselbrand decks, not Storm decks.

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Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar

Played this new list to a mediocre 2-2 at a local event. I hadn't played the deck in forever and made some questionable mulligan decisions and play calls in the two rounds I lost. Beat Reanimator (!) and Bant, lost to Belcher and Elves.

4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
4 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 High Tide
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Snap
2 Turnabout

4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
4 Time Spiral
2 Dig Through Time

1 Pact of Negation
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
8 Island

Sideboard

1 Flusterstorm
1 Brain Freeze
1 Snap
1 Rebuild
1 Blue-Sun's Zenith
1 Turnabout
1 Dig Through Time
3 Krosan Grip
1 Tropical Island
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Defense Grid

The list performed quite fluidly except when I kept bad hands or had to mull into oblivion for FOW against Belcher. I'm likely going to cut the Pact as I'm not sure it's necessary anymore - also I would like another Flusterstorm in the 75. I would also like to work Echoing Truth back into the sideboard, auto-losing to Empty the Warrens is not an option in my meta. The green splash out of the board is for the difficult Miracles matchup as I'm tired of auto-losing to turn 2 Counterbalance.

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I'm curious to hear about your questionable mulligan decisions and what matchups they were in. Additionally, how were Krosan Grips in the side? The wary Miracles players floats 3 drop for Counterbalance in anticipation of Wipe Away. Is your plan to just go for the top in response to EoT spins?

Edit: I see it now. Attacking countertop with a permanent answer is very different than EoT bouncing it.

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Originally Posted by Jesture

I'm curious to hear about your questionable mulligan decisions and what matchups they were in. Additionally, how were Krosan Grips in the side? The wary Miracles players floats 3 drop for Counterbalance in anticipation of Wipe Away. Is your plan to just go for the top in response to EoT spins?

Edit: I see it now. Attacking countertop with a permanent answer is very different than EoT bouncing it.

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Game two against Belcher I kept a hand with Flusterstorm but no FOW (on the draw) and died on turn 1. Should have mulled to Force, no questions asked. Against Elves I kept a hand with lands, untap effects, High Tide, and Brainstorm. I Brainstormed into nothing and died with 2x High Tide, 2x untap effect in my hand. Probably should have mulled into a hand with more business, although I didn't expect the top 14 cards of my deck to have zero draw beyond that one Brainstorm.

I didn't board in Grip because no matchups called for it. It's insurance against Miracles which is otherwise a very bad matchup - you can also bring it in against decks with Chalice and other lock pieces.

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Originally Posted by TiMeWaLk

A list worth sharing, isn't it esthoril?

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9035&d=251480&f=LE

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Looks like an awesome list :cool: Round 6 was feature match which is recorded on camera.
Doesn't seem to be uploaded yet though, but i'll post here when that is the case.

To fit in Candelabra's I'd cut the probe and sleight of hand to start with.
And probably the brain freeze can go as well to add a 3rd candle.
(with 3 candle, 4 turnabout, 4 spiral main, hitting 60+ mana shouldn't be an issue).

I don't think I would ever go below 7 counters.

Is it just me, or is URW Delver an absolute nightmare matchup? They run so many counterspells, and then they have the audacity to board in Meddling Mage. Also their clock is pretty decent. What's your gameplan against Patriot?

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Originally Posted by clavio

Is it just me, or is URW Delver an absolute nightmare matchup? They run so many counterspells, and then they have the audacity to board in Meddling Mage. Also their clock is pretty decent. What's your gameplan against Patriot?

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Avoid them
Other tha that, resolve a defense grid. They'll have few hard countespells to answer it, and then you should only need 1 counter on your combo turn.
Other than that bring in bounce for both getting rid of their clock and meddling mage.
But yeah, avoid them at all costs.