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I agree, the elves one doesn't really count, any cantrip/intuition/wish etc would have won.
On BUG I also agree with you, I usually board in leylines and not grids. This version didn't play hymns and had more blue, like flusterstorm, so I think it was right in this case but shouldn't be what you do generally.
What is your current main deck?
There's nothing fancy at all in my main deck anymore. It's literally 99% what the first page build is.
3 City of Traitors
1 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
10 Island
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Dream Halls
4 Omniscience
3 Cunning Wish
3 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Enter the Infinite
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Show and Tell
SB: 1 Trickbind
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Release the Ants
SB: 1 Noxious Revival
SB: 1 Intuition
SB: 1 Eladamri's Call
SB: 3 Defense Grid
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
...the only changes I've made are very slight, to the sideboard:
- Sapphire Charm --> Chain of Vapor, 'cause I accidentally traded my Sapphire Charm in a pile of cards.
- Rushing River --> Wipe Away, originally a card availability issue, but I have used this against Griselbrand with great effect. I don't feel particularly motivated to seek out a Rushing River.
- Pact of Negation --> Flusterstorm, only the sideboard copy. I figure here that if I have enough mana to be doing the glacially slow EOT tutor for another counterspell, I probably have an extra land around... so I might as well get the king of counterspells instead of one that just might kill me. Plus it's fine coming in if I need some defense against a faster deck.
One change I'm looking forward to making to the deck is getting 4 of those new art Flooded Strands in there. Dragon bones, who can say no to that?
One important detail you missed in the elves matchup is what happens if you miss. Sure, you found the wish and got there, but if you didn't and they drop Ruric Thar next turn, what would have been your out if it had just been a BS?
I will agree that Jace can be clunky at times, mainly against RUG. Which is usually why I board him out against them, bringing in Grids (I usually go -2 Jace -1 FOW +3 Grid against most delver variants).
I won't fault you if you test him and don't like him. All I'm saying is that he's been fantastic in the matches I've played with him. Plus, I can't stand the versions with 7-8 pieces of countermagic main. I feel like I either draw all or none of it, and always at the wrong times.
I am definitely a fan of the 7 counterspells in the main deck. One of my favorite things about it is how it has a coherent game plan against all three major avenues of interaction. Against counterspells, I have Pact and Grid. Against discard, I have Leylines. Against hatebears, I have some bounce and the ability to ignore up to 2 of them (though Ethersworn Canonist is still problematic).
The beauty of the 7 counterspells is that one almost never has to dig for them. They seem to just magically collect in the hand while I'm digging for whatever combo piece I don't have yet. Of course, I've had those hands where I seem to draw nothing but counterspells, but most of the time my faith in the cantrips is rewarded.
To be quite honest, I don't think the DnT matchup is as good as it was before Spirit of the Labyrinth was printed. The days of being able to play Island after Island and detonate at leisure are gone. Two bears can buy them enough time for a third, and the third can buy them enough time for a kill. Maybe a 1-of MD Jace to be played off of Omniscience is a good answer, as everyone else's results would seem to suggest, but I'm also considering switching out my three "hatebear" wishable targets for Teferi's Realm. Then it's an easy 3 for 3 switch with my Pacts in the SB games
D&t is a pain - true. Right now I'm using the black splash but I also tried Polymorphist's jest against them and it was surprisingly good as it shuts up multiple hatebears. Did its job well and you should consider testing it also. It worked for me against them so it's an option instead of a black splash too. Try it :)
Edit: About crazy testing: has anyone tested green splash maybe :P? (Krosan grip, xantid swarm, autumn's veil)
I noticed that Polymorphist's Jest card, but I didn't think it could possibly be feasible at that mana cost and the need to play it on my turn. How does it even work? I cast this off of Omniscience to remove those annoying bears so I can Enter the Infinite? It seems like a lot to invest pre-Enter. Wlith Teferi's Realm, my plan of playing basic land and ignoring my opponent returns to viability. I mean, I'll try the Jest and I appreciate the suggestion. It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong.
I'm really starting to think it might work. It's even a modest defense against the dreaded Iona on blue off of a Show and Tell, if I manage to get this down early enough to take an extra 7 damage.
I suspect this deck might get more popular again with the fetchland reprint. Is this not the most accessible good Brainstorm deck? Those fetches were a huge part of the entry barrier. Without them it's just Forces, Shows, Emrakul, and City of Traitors. Jace and Flusterstorm are (arguably) optional. Intuitions are very cheaply had at the moment, and nothing else in the deck is over $10.
You don't need Emrakul or FoW. Just play the LabMan version with PoN. All good!
TBH I've never tried that build, so I probably shouldn't say anything about it all. It could just be better than what I'm running.
That said, I really like to Wish --> Eladamri's Call --> Emrakul. It used to just be an out to Gaddock Teeg, and now it's an out to Spirit of the Labyrinth. This isn't just theorizing for me, I've taken down several games with that. They need a Mindcensor (an untutorable 2-of) to foil such evil plans.
But yeah, if I were a Standard or Modern player looking to get in on some Legacy action and desirous of playing Brainstorm... that's a very attractive option. Certainly miles better than High Tide. Even mentioning that deck in the same sentence as this one makes me nauseous.
Wish, Slaughter Pact/Wipe Away is LabMan's out to Teeg. I can't say I've seen it in a long while, though.
It seems like that would leave something to be desired, though, if that Cunning Wish were my only business spell and I needed to win with an Omniscience in play.
Wish --> Call --> Emrakul still works through a Teeg and a Spirit, right through the hatebears. If my plan is to Wish --> Bounce, I'm going to need another business spell so I can win the game.
I really like the Wish --> Call --> Emrakul plan, to the point of seriously considering the fourth Cunning Wish.
If it seems that I'm obsessed with hatebears, I am. I have been doing as well, or better, than expected against most of the other decks. The graveyard decks, WUR Delver, and Team America are the biggest problems. I'm comfortable with that if I can get good numbers elsewhere.
do you have an appropriate list to look over? i'm not super familiar with that variant.Quote:
Originally Posted by pandaman
It's pretty much Emidln's list from some pages back with a different mix of Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors and Massacre instead of Toxic Deluge.
What can I say I'm playing the deck for a long time and now I'm experimenting with other colors/strange cards heavily ;). Jest saved my ass with omni in play. It would be hard to hardcast it pre omniscience in play in this matchup. But it was a nice exchange for wipe away. It worked for me I'm not saying it's the best solution for the multiple hatebears - that is black splash and massacre but it's something worth even trying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lormador
Hello, long time reader/first time poster here. I started playing this deck after acquiring 4 Show and Tells online when they were the MOCS promo, and I've looked at a bunch of different lists and arrived here:
4 Ancient Tomb
6 Fetches
10 Island
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
3 Pact of Negation
4 Show and Tell
4 Omniscience
4 Enter the Infinite
3 Cunning Wish
3 Dream Halls
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Defense Grid
1 Noxious Revival
1 Intuition
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Pact of Negation
1 Release the Ants
1 Rushing River
1 Sapphire Charm
1 Trickbind
It's very similar to most of the lists that have been posted on this thread, specifically the one from the original post -the MD Leyline +1 Probe. Also don't have the Eladamri's Call in the SB, i'm not sure if it's worth it but I can see the merits of having it against D&T. People online play a lot of Miracles and Elves, are there any MD changes/Wish targets that can sway those matchups in our favor? Less so Elves since I feel like we're heavily favored, but more Miracles. Obviously Defense Grid is your go-to, and maybe the matchup isn't as bad as my results indicate. Also, I saw a list a couple pages back that had 2 Jace and 2 Personal tutor in place of the MD Pacts. Is this a reasonable plan?
I play the Jaces and Tutors in place of Pact mainly because I can't stand having multiple counterspells as weird as that sounds. I'd rather my cards did something besides sit there and maybe be useful later. Honestly, I'd cut FoW too if it wasn't an absolute necessity against other combo. Again, this is personal preference and reflects how I prefer to play the deck. It's not "safe". Unless you are a lunatic like I am, I would say that the safe way is probably better.Quote:
Originally Posted by lotushead666
The one change that I would make to the list you posted is to play 3 City of Traitors. Having the ability to Intuition for those at low life totals against burn (which not only is a deck, but is an actual issue. Mainly because of Eidolon of the Great Revel) can and will save you. Its one of those niche situations that I feel like greatly influences deck building
I don't think the Miracles matchup is particularly bad. Game 1 we should have a heavy advantage, most of the time going off while the other player struggles to get rid of their dead cards. Games 2 and 3 the advantage swings to their favor with all those Blasts, Flusterstorms, and additional Vendillion Cliques, but winning both games against solid hands on our side can be hard to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by lotushead666
I recall a particularly memorable game in which I played a Turn 1 Defense Grid off of a City of Traitors, with Island, Show and Tell, and everything I needed to go off in my hand. My opponent winced and said ok. The next turn I went off with no possibility of any stack interaction: after the game my opponent showed me his hand of Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Red Elemental Blast. Not all games go that well, needless to say, but that's the power of Defense Grid.
One thing that helps in this particular matchup is playing Firemind's Foresight. Vendillion Clique coming in off of Show and Tell to take one's business is not good, and not only does FF help with this, but it is also great when all the primary lines of attack have been countered and one only has a Dream Halls left. I'm not sure FF is good in other matchups and I'm not sure if it's worth it on the whole (I am not running it at the moment, but I'm thinking of going back).
Another thing that might help is switching out the Pact in the board for a Flusterstorm. When this comes in, it can help fight opposing Flusterstorms. One can usually scrape together an extra Island when reduced to the glacially slow "Wish for another counter" line, in my opinion.
As for Personal Tutor and JTMS in the Miracles matchup... JTMS is probably great to have there, but I can't imagine bringing in a slow 1 CMC card-disadvantage tutor against Counterbalance is wise. Nothing says PUT A CMC=3 ON TOP OF LIBRARY ASAP like that sort of thing.
...
Our local Miracles player is very hesitant to play with me now. "There is no interaction," according to him. I think that's a good sign that I might be doing something right for once. Perhaps I'll proxy up something different for him to play against. Like 12Post.
Yeah the games that i'm losing to Miracles are when they Brainstorm/Ponder/Top in the first 3-4 turns of the game and have a giant counter wall for when I finally try to go off. Maybe i'm just not being patient enough, because they really don't have any sort of a clock so you basically get to just sit and sculpt the perfect hand for as long as you want. I could see the Foresight being good against Clique for the same reason I like to have a backup Wish ready to go after I cast S&T. I'll give the 1 Flusterstorm a try for sure. I haven't encountered a ton of games where Pact costing zero as a Wish target actually mattered, and Flusterstorm is certainly the crown jewel of counters. Lastly, did you see the list that top16'd the most recent SCG open?
Creatures (1)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Lands (19)
8 Island
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
Spells (40)
3 Dream Halls
4 Omniscience
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
3 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Intuition
2 Pact of Negation
1 Quicken
4 Enter the Infinite
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Show and Tell
Sideboard
3 Defense Grid
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Echoing Truth
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Firemind's Foresight
1 Flusterstorm
1 Intuition
1 Polymorphist's Jest
1 Release the Ants
1 Trickbind
1 Wipe Away
Playing that many Flusterstorms in the main seems very strange, but it's possible that switching Pacts into those is correct. I can see where he's coming from with the Quicken, I tried one out for some number of games and it came up once or twice. Lastly, any idea as to why he has Polymorphist's Jest in his SB? I read a couple pages back in this thread that someone was playing it as a pseudo "wrath" for multiple hatebears, and I guess I could see that.
Against Miracles, apart from the very obvious Defense Grid, I've had success using the Dream Halls kill. Like the Miracles primer says though, it's kind of a dumb matchup, it generally plays out a few ways.
- Omnitell plows through with an unbeatable hand (T1 Defense Grid, T2 kill)
- Omnitell goes off 2+ times early, with more protection than the Miracles player. This is unlikely to occur.
- Miracles holds sufficient countermagic to stave off the first attempt or two, and then lands some permanents that put away the game: like Jace, Top, Counterbalance.
- Miracles staves off the first attempt or two, but doesn't seize permanent control. Dream Halls shines.
- Miracles doesn't have a lot of counters in hand, but does have Top + Counterbalance. They set this up ASAP and start the digging.
Situation 1 is pretty rare. Since there's almost nothing the Miracles player can do to stop it, I see little point in talking about it.
Situation 2 is more common than 1, but it's still not going to happen much. The Miracles player almost always has more countermagic than we do. They have more of it in their deck, similar cantrip levels, and don't need to assemble anything. I don't like the odds of my 2 counterspells protecting my one Show and Tell against them.
Situation 3 is a lost game, but I only consider the position lost if I'm facing down a JTMS in addition to a Countertop (or just a huge hand vs my 1-2 cards). Jace gives them much more control over the top of the library than just a Top. Plenty of games end up here. It is the converse of situation 1, only more common.
Situation 4 is where it gets interesting. They counter some stuff, but wind up without a lot of permanents and a depleted hand. I hope for these positions. I, too, have a depleted hand and (obviously) not a lot of permanents, but since the game has gone long, Dream Halls + Enter the Infinite emerges in all its glory as (basically) a 2-card combo. I am totally fine with this. Even just resolving a Dream Halls and letting it sit on the field isn't bad at all. I especially love those Show and Tell-heavy hands that threaten Dream Halls + Enter the Infinite. Countering the Shows leaves Ommniscience stranded, but Dream Halls is going live once I can scrape up 5 mana. Meanwhile all their counters have been aimed at my Shows, so there is little left. Halls dodges Flusterstorm too.
Situation 5 is also winnable. The trick here is to pressure the top of the library. They will really want to have a CMC=3 on top. You can even cast Ponders and Preordains into a Top + Counterbalance, as long as your hand is large to threaten an immediate Show and Tell if they have the temerity to flip Top to Counterbalance a cantrip. Conversely, I'm not at all afraid to walk a naked Show and Tell into a Countertop if the other player has had no opportunity to Brainstorm or fetch+top more than once. Countertop is really scary from across the table, but from behind the Miracles player one often sees land, land, and another Top when they spin it (or other useless rubbish). Thus, until I have good reason to think otherwise, I treat the top of their library as though it were shuffle fodder. This isn't a Storm deck where we can't go off at all.
...
I like that list, not so much because of the Flusterstorms, but because of the land configuration. I think I'll try that one. I'm not so into shaving a Preordain though, I still want my four.
Played 3 daily events today with the 3 Flusterstorm list from above, with these changes:
MD:
-1 Intuition
-1 Quicken
+1 Ancient Tomb
+1 Preordain
SB:
-1 Echoing Truth
-1 Wipe Away
-1 Eladamri's Call
-1 Firemind's Foresight
-1 Polymorphist's Jest
+1 Rushing River
+1 Sapphire Charm
+1 Leyline of Sanctity
+1 Slaughter Pact
+1 Noxious Revival
I have always like the bounce spell package of River/Charm as opposed to anything else. Charm costing one is huge, and you don't really care about Empty the Warrens/Bridge From Below tokens that the Echoing Truth covers. Rushing River being able to pick up 2 permanents has come up for me more than once, and basically all of the decks you want River against don't have counterspells anyways. The one scenario I could see is Griselbrand, but i'm not sure that's worth it. I didn't understand the Foresight in his SB originally since he didn't have a 2 to tutor for in his MD, so the backdoor Dream Halls kill isn't an option, and even if that's the case it takes up an additional SB slot and one weak MD slot. Eladamri's Call is something I wanted to try out, but wasn't sure what to cut, maybe the Revival? From his MD, I can't get behind 19 lands, especially when he's cutting a cantrip as well. The MD Intuition is somewhat appealing, but in a lot of matchups you just don't have that kind of time.
As far as the games went, I went 4-0, 2-2, and 3-1 respectively. My 3 losses were to a strange monoB reanimator deck, Shardless BUG, and BUG Delver. The BUG matchups involved getting Hymned a bunch after not finding Leyline and keeping some mediocre 6s as opposed to going to 5 and looking for Leyline. The reanimator match was very strange, G1 he Duressed my FoW and put an Iona into play. G2 he Duressed and Unmasked my 2 FoWs, but had one card left and I killed him 3 turns later. G3 on the draw I kept 3 Fetches, Island, Ancient Tomb, S&T, Leyline. After his G2 keep, I figured he was capable of keeping another heavy discard hand, but he had Swamp Chrome Mox Entomb Reanimate and that was that. The matches that I won all felt pretty good, I definitely liked the 3 MD Flusterstorms as opposed to Gitaxian Probe, and every time I was in a counter war I ended it with a Flusterstorm and usually a concession. I think for tomorrow i'm going to cut either the Revival or the Slaughter Pact and try out Eladamri's Call, and leave everything else as is.
FF does two things, 1) it allows you to beat an ETB trigger with only cunning wish as a kill card, and 2) allows an easier Dream Halls / Cunning Wish kill by requiring fewer blue cards. By not including the 2cc instant, you only lose the second.Quote:
Originally Posted by lotushead666
If you want to keep FF, I would cut the intuition from the side (but keep one intuition main). This gives you a sideboard slot back.