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I'm thinking of puting 3 in my SB also, don't kow about mainboard. they kill alot of decks. In aggro loam remove lftl and they are nothing, in survival remove sotf and they are nothing anymore and they are so good against combo decks. puting away their winconditions, they are not that good against aggro thats why I prefer sideboard
Planar Void is close to useless if it's not in your opening hand anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayer001
Leyline costs 0, is uncounterable, and can't ever be knocked out of your opening hand with a rogue discard spell, which makes it better against almost every single deck where it could be relevant. Planar's stronger against Tarmogoyf if it resolves (and sometimes only if you go first), which is a big if. So what? Leyline shuts their yard down, and you aren't ever going to put any Lands, Artifacts, or Enchantments in yours, or even Instants unless you draw a Dark Ritual. Most of what goes in your yard is Sorceries and Creatures. Tarmogoyfs tend to average 2/3 or 3/4 with Leyline out, which I find is very easily manageable.
What's more, if a deck like Ichorid has a Chain of Vapor in hand, and you're going first? Leyline, Swamp, Thoughtseize/Duress, win.
And why can't you mulligan until you have it if it's strong enough? I beat Cephalid Breakfast multiple times going to 5 for it, and I've beaten Ichorid going to 3 (Swamp, Carnophage, Leyline). What's more, chances are very high that you'll see it either in your seven or your six (Probability experts, give me a figure here.)
In addition, that one mana you spend on Planar Void can seriously make the difference between a win and a loss in Sui Black decks that are based more on speed than anything.
I believe taco, that your analysis between void and leyline is a little biased, because you have never ran Confidant in any list you have provided. Leyline has terrible synergy with confidant and void doesnt. Confidant belongs in Sui black because it is the only form of card advantage this deck has. You dont run him because he is a beater, so the arguement that he cant swing through anything is not valid here. The fact that he draws cards and can occaisionally put 2+ points up on the opponent is just a bonus.
Oh and if leyline is not in your opening hand (4 out of sixty = 1/15. There are seven cards in your hand so the probability that a 4-of will be in your opening hand is 7/15 or 46.67% The probability that leyline will be in your second hand is 40%... so its not like its gonna be in every hand you get, and mulling to 5 for leyline is foolish) then its just as dead as void.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
I'm running Confidant in my current list, actually. And while I acknowledge this is a difference maker, it's not enough of one. Good decks play good cards, and Leyline of the Void is stronger then Planar Void. Confidant does make it a closer call, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by technogeek5000
The dissynergy isn't all that bad in decks where it's relevant, anyway. I have no other means of life loss in my build aside from Thoughtseize and Carnophage, and against a combo deck where I need Leyline chances are I boarded out Carnophage anyway, considering every combo deck where I need Leyline I can also benefit from Plague, and somebody has to go.
So while I won't argue for or against Confidant (I mainly run him because of the insane amount of Control in my metagame), I'd pick Leyline in either case.
Your math absolutely sucks. For one thing, that's not the -combined- chance of getting it in either your six or seven. For another, that's not how you calculate probability. By your logic, if you drew 15 cards, it would be completely impossible to -not- have a Leyline of the Void in your opening hand.Quote:
Oh and if leyline is not in your opening hand (4 out of sixty = 1/15. There are seven cards in your hand so the probability that a 4-of will be in your opening hand is 7/15 or 46.67% The probability that leyline will be in your second hand is 40%... so its not like its gonna be in every hand you get, and mulling to 5 for leyline is foolish) then its just as dead as void.
Tacosnape, what creature base are you running atm? do you run the 8 zombies as well?
I have a list with confi here somewhere in this thread. it hurts alot with leyline. I have also alot more pain to take. confi, fetch, carnophage, thougtseize I don't have yetQuote:
Originally Posted by technogeek5000
Mulliganning to 5 for a leyline is not the best option you have. I run withered wretch who is also pretty good against graveyard-recursion decks
i'll keep it with those planar voids, they have helped me alot. leyline is better in almost evey deck but not in sui black in my opinion.
At the moment...well, here's the list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shtriga
18 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
4 Carnophage
4 Black Knight (Yes, Black Knight. Shut up.)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Cabal Therapy/Smother/Yixlid Jailer (I can't ever make up my mind on this slot)
3 Cursed Scroll
1 Umezawa's Jitte (This could be 1 of any of the sideboard cards)
SB:
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Engineered Plague
4 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
Yeah, I bailed on the pump knights, largely for the awesomeness that is Cursed Scroll. I win more matches against random crap like Enchantress, MUC, Landstill, and other off the wall crap from that card than I can even begin to explain. It seems to kick in right as my opponent stabilizes.
Black Knight could be Sarcomancy if you want more speed, Crusader if you want a stronger finisher, but I think Knight's better than either in the midgame. You'll be spending the mana you would use to pump Crusader on playing other threats, pumping Shade, equipping Jitte, or activating Scroll. Black Knight's first strike makes him nifty as hell with both Scroll and Jitte. His pro-white makes him incredibly good against decks that rely on STP as their removal spell of choice.
This build does what my other Sui Black deck wouldn't do - beat both combo and control. Specters and Confidants go a long way to this end. Aggro matchups suck, but improve via Plague/Jitte/Scroll. Thoughtseize works as a threat removal card as often as not.
My decision to cut Sarcomancy was a hard one, but necessary. It tied you to Zombies too much for my liking, and there weren't enough good ones. Without Negator or any other Zombies backing him up, Carnophage became the better choice of the 1-drop to keep. I'm in a control-heavy metagame, and the all-or-nothing approach wasn't getting the job done against Explosives, Deeds, Pyroclasms, and so forth.
EDIT: Oh, and news flash. Withered Wretch still sucks. Just like it has for the past twelve months. Jailer >> Wretch.
Taco: I have a query, though. How do you beat TES? Hyppie doesn't hurt them much, sometimes they have Confidant too, and Sui-Black's clock is ridiculously slow compared to TES...
That's how you beat TES.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
That could be 3 jitte MD or even 3 Smother MD, so you can improve your aggro matchup a bit.
Anyway, I like your list very much and it seems to be the best so far. I would only go with Crusader over Black Knight because flying >> first strike.
By the way, don't you think that Oona's Prowler will be better then Specter?
Flying does > first strike...except when you have pay for it.... And please explain to the world how, in the age of Dredge & combo like Ceph Breakfast that giving your opponent a free discard outlet is a good thing? If Oona's Prowler was the right call (and it isn't) then the proper card to replace would be the 2 cc/2power knight of whichever, NOT the flying creature of kicking control in the junk repeatedly....just sayin'.
Oona's Prowler is awful. Awful Awful Awful. I would never ever run it and there's at least ten creatures I'd pick over it in Suicide Black that I don't already run, including Sarcomancy, Ebon Hand, Crusader, Hand of Cruelty, Negator, Jailer, the ever awful Withered Wretch, Sewer Rats, Wei Ambush Force, Rotting Giant, Wretched Anurid, Skittering Skirge, and Wicked Akuba. It's the Browbeat dilemma all over again. You're giving your opponent the choice, and they're going to pick the best option. No card currently in existence that gives the final choice to your opponent should be played in Legacy, and this will remain as such until they print one that's completely broken, like a card called Homicide Black (Sorcery, :1::b:, Target Opponent Chooses One - Put four 13/13 Zombie Mutant tokens into play, or Draw 7 cards and take three additional turns. Foilstorm (If Homicide Black is Foil, copy it for each spell played this turn.))
Think you have Tarmogoyf problems? Oona's Prowler turns Tarmogoyf into Wild Mongrel on crack! Struggling with Ichorid? Prepare to struggle even more, considering your main hope game one is to knock out their discard outlets ASAP.
@taco: I'm with you on the prowler thing, he isn't good in sui black against most decks.
About yailer and wretch, I will pick wretch, he removes the cards so no tarmogoyf feed anymore. But against certain matchups I agree that yixlid yailer is better. espacially aganst suirvival, ichorid, breakfast. Maybe i'll try him out someday. My deck looks as follows:
10x Swamp
4x Bloodstained mire
3x Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
3x Wasteland
4x Dark Ritual
2x Withered Wretch
3x Carnophage
3x Black Knight
3x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Confidant
4x Duress
4x Hymn to tourach
3x Smother
3x Diabolic Edict
3x Umezawa's Jitte
SB:
4x planar void
4x Dystopia
4x engineered Plague
3x Extirpate
I have chosen also for black knight they are amazing and like someone said before if you have to pay for flying, then first strike is better. With him and Jitte I even win against R/w Vial Goblins. The specters are just to great against any deck, if he comes on the table its pretty much over against certain decks. Edicts are nice against nimble mongooses and against all creature based metagames. You just take out the creature removal for other threats against certain decks.
the all around lack of Negator is due to all the tarmogoyfs around I guess? I know he has been awful for me lately
yea negator is not as good anymore as he used to be. against goyfs it is a pain you can only beat if they don't have creatures or burn but goyf comes down turn 2 so not much beating. and with goyf around you may sac alot of things and thats not what we want
I never liked Negator in Suicide Black, though I loved it in Red Death. This is in large part due to Sui Black's problems eliminating a threat from in front of a Negator, where as Red Death could tap a land and fry something. (I -still- have urges to splash red for Lightning Bolt for the synergy with Black Knight) In something as removal-heavy as Slayer's list, though, it might be pretty good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shtriga
I assume your decision not to run Thoughtseize is based on not owning them? Because no black deck in existence makes more use out of Thoughtseize's ability to snag a creature than this one. Plus 8 Duress effects is better than 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayer001
EDIT: Also, Kudos for doing the logical thing and running Urborg to supplement your Wastelands. Is three too many Urborgs, though?
Mathematically seen, nope. According to MWS, you only have a chance of 3% to draw double Urborg in your start hand and only 19% up to T10. Now consider how likely it is that the colorless part of Wasteland ruins your start hand and how Urborg can fix that. I think it's worth the risk because it wins you more games than it loses you games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Eh that small chance will result in you drawing a dead card in a few games, which absolutely sucks if it's a land drop. I'd stick with 2, but that's just me. As long as 3 works, hey.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Yep that's right, Urborg wins me games i sometimes don't win because i don't have enough black mana. you can even tap your fetchlands for mana and if they destroy them, sac, -1 life and search swamp :)
You are right about the thougtseize part, I don't have them. And they are to expensive at the moment, I'm going to try, to trade it someday :) they are good I tried it with proxies
@Tacosnape: Just asking: Do you really need at least 12 discard spells MD if you have problems against aggro? Doesn't cutting 2 discard spells for 2 additional MD Jitte make more sense, especially with Black Knight?