[Deck] CounterSliver 2.0 (MeatHooks.dec)

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Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx

More than 4 Crystalline slivers is unnecessary. You make the argument that it acts like countermagic in that it negates ill effects to your slivers. However, sometimes the things you want to counter have nothing to do with your slivers.

Frankly, your build loses to storm combo game 1 because your counters are lacking in both number and versatility.

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To that end (but not exclusively that), I'm currently playing maindeck Meddling Mages. With 8 Muscles providing huge creatures, the aggro matchup is already favourable, and the Mages shore up the control/combo matchup. Mage naming Wrath or Deed is critical to fighting control decks. In those matchups, FoW's exclusive purpose is to protect Pikula.

// Lands
3 [PR] Tundra
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [PR] Savannah
3 [PR] Tropical Island
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
1 [TE] Winged Sliver
4 [LE] Plated Sliver
3 [TE] Muscle Sliver
4 [PLC] Sinew Sliver
4 [SH] Crystalline Sliver
4 [PS] Meddling Mage

// Spells
4 [PR] Brainstorm
4 [PR] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
3 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
2 [PS] Eladamri's Call

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
SB: 2 [SC] Stifle
SB: 3 [5E] Winter Orb
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [US] Worship
SB: 2 [WL] Serenity

See, I think more than 4 Crystalline Slivers is actually important.

I don't make arguments that it acts like countermagic. I make arguments that it adds additional resiliency to my Slivers and is a 2cc 2/2 that gains Sliver bonuses and gives a nifty ability to the rest of them. I find 2: return Sliver to hand to be a really strong, versatile ability.

I realize countermagic isn't just used to protect my guys. What's wrong with the 4/3/2 split? Counterspell is really lacking in a deck stacked with so many 2 drops, even in your list of 19. Counterspell is good, I run it... but I think running too many is just going to lead to bad early draws. This deck isn't Threshold and doesn't have the ability to hold UU open as easily.

How does my build lose to storm combo turn 1 any differently than your build? Because I run 2 less Counterspells? I've found Counterspell to be pretty bad against storm based combo... you either choose between leaving mana open to cast it or put a clock into play. Against TES moreso than everything else, Counterspell isn't so good. I mean, it's still great vs combo, but severly lacking vs the other countermagic. 4 is simply too much. Against Solidarity, Counterspell might not be so bad since if they try to combo off on turn 4, you might be able to leave UU open. Regardless, I don't see how dropping 2 Counterspell for 2 Hibernation Sliver makes my combo matchup lose to storm combo where your build doesn't. This seems very very unrealistic... either they both lose, or they both win, or its relatively even for both. I'm really not following your logic on this one.

I think more importantly than storm combo, Counterspell is strong vs board control. Counterspell is argueably better than Hibernation Sliver vs board control, although Hibernation Sliver is pretty good vs them regardless. Considering I am attempting to take an anti-board control position with my sideboard (Winter Orb), and the fact that Hibernation is solid against board control, tend to pretty much balance whatever differences that occur.

However, instead of running 2 extra Counterspell, I'm getting 2 extra Slivers. 2 extra Slivers that give me virtual card advantage like Crystalline when I don't see Crystalline. They increase the consistency of my gameplan (Crystalline + Muscles). However, the ability is extremely versatile so it fills a couple of extra functions too.

The only questionable thing towards dropping 2 Counterspell for 2 Hibernation is manabase issues, not whether or not running 2 Cspell/2 Hibernation is worse than 4 Cspell. As I've tested thouroughly vs B/r and B/w Sui, Loam variants (with Wasteland), and Goblins... the manabase is fine.

Regardless, I just mainly wanted to post that I gave up trying to get a Survival list together that I liked for the reasons I mentioned. I hadn't put any feedback in for a while and figured I'd do so. I still support the 4c list and I will continue to believe it to be the perfect configuration for the MD. The sideboard is another monster... I don't think it's finished yet. Just figured I'd put my opinion out there on it.

So the results are in, and i will say now that i am sorry if i got anyones hopes up, but the turn up for the tournament was pitiful 8... I mean seriously Sydney you can do better than that, although on the plus it was a great field of decks which included 1 Thresh, 2 Goblins, 1 Solidarity, 1 Angel Stax, 1 Burn, 1 Some crazy infinite mana dragon combo thing, and me.

I came in 4th after the 3 rounds mainly because of a disappointing loss in the first round. Thresh came 1st, Stax 2nd, and Burn 3rd.

Here is how it panned out for me

Round 1 - Burn
Game 1
I had a very good aggressive hand, kept and proceeded to have Muscle, Sinew, Plated by turn 3, turn 4 they ate a flamebreak, whilst my face continued to eat burn. I rebuilt me team then was flame broken again, and then yes thats right a third time, which ended that game quickly, i saw no counter spells in that game at all, every dig with a brainstorm was showing a new team of dudes rather than a way to save my current one.

-2 Stifle -1 Serum Visions +2 Worship +1 Counterspell
Game 2
Had a nice team with Crystalline, Muscle, Plated and sat back on my counters while laying the beats. Got him to 2, then got double price of progressed only being able to counter 1

Loss 0-2

Round 2 - Goblins
Game 1
First game goblins did what they do, and smash face in the most broken way possible, my team of 3 Sinew was looking hot till two of them ate gempalms, and by that stage it was too late.

-2 Counterspell +2 Worship

Game 2
I Mulligan down to 5 (ouch) but they were a nice 5 i proceed to lay a team and just counter everything of any consequence he casts. I win

Game 3
I keep an ordinary hand merely cos it had 3 basic lands, Crystalline Sliver and worship, I take a lot of early beats as i dont name blockers I drop turn 5 worship... gg

Win 2-1

Round 3 - Solidarity
Game 1
He goes off turn 5 and i only have a single FoW in hand, which didnt really stop much.

-4 Swords to Plowshares -3 Winged Sliver + 4 Meddling Mage +2 Stifle

Game 2
He gets stuck on 1 land, and i smash face in about 5 turns gg

Game 3
I had double daze double stifle, and stopped his lands and draw spells, which gave me the game

Win 2-1

Overall 4-4-0

Not too impressive, but not disheartening with more rounds i think things would have been very different, it was in unlucky loss to burn in the first round which dictated my placing from there out. I should have taken the StP out in the first round and put in something, maybe even the mages.

Well, you beat the Goblin deck and the Combo deck and lost to burn. Sounds about right to me. Honestly that burn matchup is terrible but not one that I really prepare for because, well, its burn. Hopefully next time you guys will have more than 8 players.

@Hanni - I think you and I are going to have to just disagree and forget about it.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Regardless, I just mainly wanted to post that I gave up trying to get a Survival list together that I liked for the reasons I mentioned.

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I pretty much agree with the conclusions you came to about Survival.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I still support the 4c list and I will continue to believe it to be the perfect configuration for the MD.

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I don't really agree with that, but oh well. It's not that splashing black for Hibernation will kill the manabase, I know for a fact that it won't, but between Force, Fetches, and Hibernation the lifeloss can get pretty steep. Also, the tempo lost from bouncing your slivers and having to replay them can be tough as well. Perhaps you could actually make use of Aether Vial. I'm sure the bounce can come in handy, but in my experience it's been more cute than anything else. I'm going to be sticking to 3 color for now.

And just so you know, the most recent build of UWg only runs 2 Counterspells.

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Originally Posted by Patoon

-4 Swords to Plowshares -3 Winged Sliver + 4 Meddling Mage +2 Stifle

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So your secret tech in the solidarity match is to go down to 59 cards?:smile:

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Originally Posted by Maverick676

So your secret tech in the solidarity match is to go down to 59 cards?:smile:

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lol dont tell anyone, there was +1 Counterspell in there as well

I, too, played Counterslivers in a tourney this weekend, and I managed to take 3rd place with a 3-1 record. Here is the list:

Creatures
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
1 Windswept Heath

SB:
3 Harmonic Sliver
4 Meddling Mage
3 Stifle
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt

Round 1: Christian with Burn

I knew I was playing against burn as soon as I saw the pairings, and I wasn't happy. In a field full of combo and goblins, why did I have to be paired against burn? Ugh...

G1: I had a pretty decent hand, with a Crystalline, a Muscle, a FOW and some cantrips, but unfortunately I cantripped into more cantrips, and lost the race by a turn.

-4 STP, -2 Counterspell
+3 Stifle, +3 Harmonic Sliver

G2: In retrospect this strat wasn't optimal, simply because Counterspell is more useful than stifle against burn. But in the end that didn't even matter. The only creature in my opening hand was a Harmonic Sliver, and I decided that if I was going to race then I needed to mull. Unfortunately I mulled into 5 land and a daze, and then I mulled into 4 creatures and a plains. If I drew another land I would have had a shot at winning, but unfortunately that never happened, and the game was a quick defeat.

Games: 0-2
Matches: 0-1

Round 2: Andrew (aka Aggro Zombies) with U/W Counterballance-Fish

My strat in this match was simply never to let CB resolve. I knew that if he got a CB and Top going then I lost.

G1: I had the counterspell for the CB and the STP for the morphed Exalted Angel. Grunt eventually killed itself and my untargetable beaters took it home.

I completely forget how I boarded... just that I brought in Mages.

G2: I played a mage naming CB, which he sent farming. He played a Serra Avenger and I started laying slivers. He played a Grunt, I sent the Avenger farming, the Grunt killed itself, and he had no answer to my guys.

Games: 2-2
Matches: 1-1

Round 3: Scott with Gobos

G1: I force his turn 1 vial, but have no answer to the second one. I get the all-important turn 2 crystalline, followed up with a turn 3 muscle and a daze on his matron. In the end 3 (!!!!!) Rishadan Ports prevent me from laying slivers, and he vials in ringleader, which gets a ringleader + 2 other gobos, and then that ringleader gets 3 gobos. I ended up being overrun the turn before I was going to win :frown: .

-3 Serum Visions, -3 Counterspell
+3 Stifle, +3 Harmonic Sliver

G2: He has a kinda slow start, and my hand is excellent. I lay down enough early beats that when I drew the Winged sliver I instantly swung for lethal.

G3: He gets slightly mana screwed after starting with Port -> Vial -> go. I get turn 2 Crystalline followed by turn 3 Harmonic Sliver to kill the vial. He tries to pull some some crazy shit with Patron of Akki (go gatherer that shit) but I have the swords, and he can't ever stabalize.

Games: 4-3
Matches: 2-1

Round 4: James with white splashed IGGy Pop

G1: I have cardquality.hand (lol) and play 3-4 cantrips. This allows me to load my hand with a daze, a counterspell, and 2 forces, and my 2 muscle slivers easily take it home after I fizzle James's combo attempt.

-4 STP, -3 Winged Sliver, -2 Crystalline Sliver
+4 Meddling Mage, +3 Stifle, +2 Tormod's Crypt

G2: This game was just brutal. I get a turn 2 MM naming tendrils, then turn 3 cantrip into another Mage and a Crypt. I play them both, with the 2nd mage naming Echoing Truth. He Massacres my mages away and lays 2 defence grids, but I topdeck a 3rd Mage, play it and 2 Sinew Slivers, and he can't win before my mages and slivers clobber him.

Games: 6-3
Matches: 3-1

So... yeah. I had a blast playing the deck, and I'm not sure I would change anything. I definately would not go down to 3 daze, as that will decrease the chance of seeing daze when it is best: the early game. I could see 2 counterspell, but I'm not sure Stifle would do anything more than Counterspell currently does. Plus, I just got the Arena Counterspells, and they are so sweet that I don't want to take them out of my deck.

Kronicler

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Originally Posted by Kronicler

So... yeah. I had a blast playing the deck, and I'm not sure I would change anything. I definately would not go down to 3 daze, as that will decrease the chance of seeing daze when it is best: the early game. I could see 2 counterspell, but I'm not sure Stifle would do anything more than Counterspell currently does. Plus, I just got the Arena Counterspells, and they are so sweet that I don't want to take them out of my deck.

Kronicler

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I advocate the 3rd Counterspell. The only change I would consider for your list is like -1 Heath +1 Polluted Delta because you are not playing forest, but whatever. I could see where you would want to fetch plains in a pinch. The weakest slots remaining IMO are the 4th serum visions and then the 4th daze (maybe). Im trying 2 Stifle for now to see if those are any better but 4 daze 4 visions is fine.

So, burn games aside I think slivers made a pretty good showing this weekend. Gratz guys.

Sigh. Stupid burn decks. I've also found random Sligh decks to be tough to deal with it. I'm beginning to think we need to take those matchup a little more seriously, rather than just saying "Bah, they're bad decks. I'll never play them after the first round." It might be worth considering packing 4 Chills in the SB. Even if you don't run into Burn past the first couple rounds of a tournament, the Chills will allow you to CRUSH Goblins to an even greater degree. You might be tempted to say "that's overkill," but considering that Goblins is the most common deck in the format, and one we're likely to run into at all stages of a tournament, I don't think it's a bad idea to add some more percentage points to our Goblins matchup.

4 Chill
4 Meddling Mage
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Armageddon
2 Stifle

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Originally Posted by Volt

Sigh. Stupid burn decks. I've also found random Sligh decks to be tough to deal with it. I'm beginning to think we need to take those matchup a little more seriously, rather than just saying "Bah, they're bad decks. I'll never play them after the first round." It might be worth considering packing 4 Chills in the SB. Even if you don't run into Burn past the first couple rounds of a tournament, the Chills will allow you to CRUSH Goblins to an even greater degree. You might be tempted to say "that's overkill," but considering that Goblins is the most common deck in the format, and one we're likely to run into at all stages of a tournament, I don't think it's a bad idea to add some more percentage points to our Goblins matchup.

4 Chill
4 Meddling Mage
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Armageddon
2 Stifle

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I hate to say it, but I'll have to concur. I don't know how they do it, but they always manage to squeak a win in the turn before you beat their face in. I don't know if I would go for 4 Chill in the board, though, as that might be too much. Also, there's no Thresh hate in there (well, Armageddon I suppose, but really). Given that it's our worst matchup in the 'Big 3' I think a Tormod's Crypt or two might not be a bad idea.

I for one love Kronicler's board:

SB:
3 Harmonic Sliver
4 Meddling Mage
3 Stifle
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt

Its...its..beautiful.:eek:

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Originally Posted by Pinder

I hate to say it, but I'll have to concur. I don't know how they do it, but they always manage to squeak a win in the turn before you beat their face in. I don't know if I would go for 4 Chill in the board, though, as that might be too much. Also, there's no Thresh hate in there (well, Armageddon I suppose, but really). Given that it's our worst matchup in the 'Big 3' I think a Tormod's Crypt or two might not be a bad idea.

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I have found Meddling Mages to be about as effective as anything against white Thresh. -4 StP +4 Meddling Mage seems to be a winning strategy.

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Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx

I for one love Kronicler's board:

SB:
3 Harmonic Sliver
4 Meddling Mage
3 Stifle
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt

Its...its..beautiful.:eek:

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And almost identical to the sideboard I've been running for a while. But it offers absolutely nothing against Burn decks.

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Originally Posted by Volt

And almost identical to the sideboard I've been running for a while. But it offers absolutely nothing against Burn decks.

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Oh, sorry. :laugh: Great minds think a like I guess.

Bah, stupid burn decks. Maybe something like 3x Chalice? It would be in our favor for the most part when set at 1. The StPs are dead anyway.

The 4c version can put Darkheart Sliver in the board. Three would be the best, but since they aren't very good in other matchups, maybe you can play 1-2 Eladamri's Calls and just run one in the SB.

Chill is also an helping hand against TES (if minor) because it makes their Rite of Flame, Burning Wish and Empty the Warrens a lot less broken :)

I think the best tech for the burn matchup would be an enchantment, as opposed to something like chalice. Mono red decks hate enchantments, so once you get it, it kinda screws them, like my goblins game where worship on turn 5 no matter what my position was gg worship is strong against burn as well, but 2 in the board is not consistent enough. maybe we could put in a third

4 Meddling Mage
3 Harmonic Sliver
3 Worship
2 Stifle
3 Tormod's Crypt

BTW has anyone else played against Angel Stax, i had 3 pre board games against it on the weekend and didnt stand a chance.

For burn how about Warmth?

1W
Enchantment
Card Text: Whenever target opponent successfully casts a red spell, gain 2 life.

Turns all of their bolts and blasts into darts and shocks as early as turn 2. Multiples would be savage. Guess it wouldnt be quite as good as Chill though.

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Originally Posted by Patoon

I think the best tech for the burn matchup would be an enchantment, as opposed to something like chalice. Mono red decks hate enchantments, so once you get it, it kinda screws them, like my goblins game where worship on turn 5 no matter what my position was gg worship is strong against burn as well, but 2 in the board is not consistent enough. maybe we could put in a third

4 Meddling Mage
3 Harmonic Sliver
3 Worship
2 Stifle
3 Tormod's Crypt

BTW has anyone else played against Angel Stax, i had 3 pre board games against it on the weekend and didnt stand a chance.

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3x Worship is a solid plan, although it's frustrating to die with a Worship in hand because you couldn't find a 4th land. That's why I was thinking Chill. Chill is just really, REALLY good against red decks.

Regarding Angel Stax, yeah, I've done a bit of playtesting against it, but not enough to quote percentages of anything. My impression was that game 1 is almost unwinnable. After sideboarding, it's still very tough, but beatable. Harmonic Slivers and Meddling Mages give you a fighting chance, but you're probably in for a long, tough battle. Angel Stax is basically a "hate" deck designed specifically to thwart creature-based strategies. All you can really do is hope you don't run into it very often.

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Originally Posted by Patoon

BTW has anyone else played against Angel Stax, i had 3 pre board games against it on the weekend and didnt stand a chance.

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I had a few encounters with Stax variants in testing (Angel Stax and one blue version). Game 1 is all about Chalice of the Void - if I could counter it or name it with Meddling Mage, I had the chance to beat down before they could stop me. Smokestack isn't an issue with all my permanents, and I could save the FoW/Daze (they play very often into Daze) for the control cards (Prison, Wrath). Otherwise, a Chalice for 2 is basically GG, because even when I drew into Harmonic Sliver I had lost too much tempo and would be under ugly pressure. Chalice for 1 is almost as bad, since without cantrips a few Wastelands were enough to put me out of business.
Game 2, I brought in Serenities, Stifles and the extra Harmonic. The gameplay didn't change all that much from Game 1, only with him having a few more must-counters and me having a "get out of jail free" card in Serenity.