[Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)

Enchantress is a highly-aggressive combo deck. This may be unintuitive, but it is the correct way to understand the deck as it exists in this format. Mislabeling Enchantress as a control deck betrays some level of confusion about the deck's fundamental strategy, and this confusion will hinder a person's ability to build and play Enchantress optimally.

We have had this discussion, before, and it is for the sake of clearing this up quickly that I will directly quote myself from an older thread. Following the link in the quote heading will reveal several pages of further discussion, but not all of it focuses on Enchantress.

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Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely

The archetype triangle of aggro, combo, and control, along with the slightly more thorough idea of The Metagame Clock (which adds aggro-control and midgame to the list), are both attempts to describe decks strategically.

Defining a deck's archetype is not the same as assigning it a role, a la Who's the Beatdown. A deck can be the beatdown or the control deck in a given matchup regardless of whether it is an aggro deck, a combo deck, or a control deck in a general strategic sense.

Aggro decks apply proactive pressure with a critical mass of individual threat cards.

Combo decks apply proactive pressure with cards that synergize with each other. These decks have very few cards that are threats on their own.

Control decks are reactive; they force interaction with the opponent in order to leverage a long-game advantage.

Hybrid strategies can adopt different qualities of each of these archetypes. Both combo-control and aggro-control decks blur the line between reactive and proactive by being able to switch roles mid-game. Aggro-combo decks are undoubtedly proactive, but combine cards that are individually strong with cards that increase in value in conjunction with other cards. Most decks are hybridized to some degree, which is why the Metagame Clock definitions can seem outdated or inadequate. After all, The Metagame Clock was originally written to define how decks actually matched up against each other, but the terms are no longer very good at predicting how one deck will fare against another.

However, the terms are still useful because correctly identifying a deck strategically gives you at least some insight into how it functions, and how to beat it with another deck, but you do have to apply them correctly. For example, if you call Enchantress a control deck, and then lose a match against it because you misassign your role, it is because you misapplied the term, not because Jack Elgin needs to redefine it.

Enchantress is a combo deck. It has a proactive, synergy-based game plan and a fundamental turn between 2 and 4, depending on the matchup. When you are playing against Enchantress, unless your deck can goldfish faster than that, you should assume the role of the control deck. What this means is that you have to force the Enchantress player to interact in order to stop him or her from blowing you out of the game.

Goblins attempts to do this with Wasteland and Port. After boarding, Goblins also brings in any Disenchant effects it has access to. Pyrostatic Pillar is another strong option, since it increases Goblins' fundamental turn significantly.

Gro attempts to do this with countermagic. Note that Gro's countermagic has to aim for the Enchantress effects. If the Gro player holds his or her counters for Confinement, and tries to race, Enchantress will get its gameplan online and accelerate to a point at which counters are no longer able to stop it from just winning the game.

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Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely

Enchantress is a highly-aggressive combo deck. This may be unintuitive, but it is the correct way to understand the deck as it exists in this format. Mislabeling Enchantress as a control deck betrays some level of confusion about the deck's fundamental strategy, and this confusion will hinder a person's ability to build and play Enchantress optimally.

We have had this discussion, before, and it is for the sake of clearing this up quickly that I will directly quote myself from an older thread. Following the link in the quote heading will reveal several pages of further discussion, but not all of it focuses on Enchantress.

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Your post is very informative, but wrong in many sense because those terms are not used in the same way because of the quicker pace of matches in tournaments now a days, The terms are quite simple.

Aggro, uses creatures and spells(mainly creatures) in a quick fashion to kill your opponent, most of the time an aggro player does not want to see late game, because they will run out of card advantage because they don't have anything that draws.

combo, combo is not just cards that work with each other, its cards working together to kill an opponent within 1-3 turns to be faster than the aggro player. most of the time a pure combo deck will use cards that have storm because of the simplisty to "combo off" combo usually do not have disruption because it slows down the combo(yes some decks to main board stuff like duress)

control, very simple here, you play cards that will control the game and force the game to go in to what is called late game because you play slower more explosive cards to shut down their opponent to finish them off later.

If you go by this, you can look at all the decks in this format and can name what they are and it will be pretty close to the same as everyone else labeling their decks the way they are.

Enchantress is a control deck. Combo is meant to be fast. Combo is called combo because you can combo off at any time from turn 1 to turn 10. Enchantress can't do that.



If you want to call enchantress a combo deck then that means AGGRO loam is a combo deck too since they use the combo kill of Seismic Assault.


Oh and ENCHANTRESS CAN'T KILL BEFORE TURN 4....... NEVER. Soo that kind of makes your post out of date and needs to be redone.

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Originally Posted by landstill101

Aggro, uses creatures and spells(mainly creatures) in a quick fashion to kill your opponent, most of the time an aggro player does not want to see late game, because they will run out of card advantage because they don't have anything that draws.

combo, combo is not just cards that work with each other, its cards working together to kill an opponent within 1-3 turns to be faster than the aggro player. most of the time a pure combo deck will use cards that have storm because of the simplisty to "combo off" combo usually do not have disruption because it slows down the combo(yes some decks to main board stuff like duress)

control, very simple here, you play cards that will control the game and force the game to go in to what is called late game because you play slower more explosive cards to shut down their opponent to finish them off later.

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Why does an aggro deck have to use creatures? Why does a combo deck have to kill within a certain number of turns? These may be trends that we see in successful examples of the archetypes, but they are not intrinsic to either strategic definition.

Your definition of the control archetype seems to highlight interaction as the key aspect of a controlling strategy, as does the definition I quoted. However, the strategy of Enchantress, on a fundamental level, is neither reactive nor interactive; Enchantress seeks to put its own plan into action, first and foremost, and killing the opponent is part of that plan. Enchantress also lacks any real long-game advantages, and rarely enjoys any kind of inevitability against another deck.

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Enchantress is a control deck. Combo is meant to be fast. Combo is called combo because you can combo off at any time from turn 1 to turn 10. Enchantress can't do that.

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Speed has absolutely nothing to do with a deck's strategic archetype. This is a fundamental flaw in your understanding of the terms, and their uses.

An aggro deck that is too slow to be competitive is not a control deck; it is a bad aggro deck. The same is true for combo.

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Oh and ENCHANTRESS CAN'T KILL BEFORE TURN 4....... NEVER. Soo that kind of makes your post out of date and needs to be redone.

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I did not say that Enchantress can or does kill the opponent before turn four, but that it has a fundamental turn between two and four. You can read up on that concept here, in another classic theory article.

The fundamental turn of Enchantress in most matchups is defined either by when an Enchantress resolves, or when a sustainable Solitary Confinement resolves. Note that both of these elements of the deck are proactive; you actively spend resources to find and protect these cards, and winning the game is generally dependent on doing so.

Hey guys, I'm new to the Enchantress Archetype. I always dismissed as a kind of mediocre deck that loses instantly to a resolved Deed. Well, I tested the deck out and not only am I wrong about the Deed, but its really an awesome deck that pulls wins out of its ass. Here's my current list:

Land//19
7x Forest
2x Plains
3x Savannah
1x Taiga
4x Windswept Heath
2x Serra Sanctum

Creatures//4
4x Argothian Enchantress

Other Spells//37
3x Chrome Mox
1x Karmic Justice
2x Exploration
1x Mirri's Guile
2x Replenish
3x Solitary Confinement
1x Blood Moon
1x Aura of Silence
4x Elephant Grass
2x Ground Seal
1x Sacred Mesa/Sigil
4x Sterling Grove
4x Utopia Sprawl
2x Wild Growth
1x Words of War
1x Oblivion Ring
4x Enchantress's Presence

Sideboard//15
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Runed Halo
1x Ground Seal
2x Humility
2x Karmic Justice
2x Blood Moon
1x Sacred Ground
1x Seal of Primordium

Well, there it is. I have some questions. Should Runed Halos be maindecked? Should I maindeck O-Rings? And most importantly, is the red splash worth arguably the best win con. and the best disruption enchantment? Thanks for the help, trying to pick up a new deck...an exceptionally difficult one to play too.

Every deck in legacy has a fundamental turn between 1 and 4, so that doesn't say much.

Every deck has also a good number of internal sinergies (unless it's chaserare.deck) such as Ravager+Artifacts, Enchantress+Enchantments, Landstill+Manlands, LD+Daze, the entire goblin deck, etc. So that doesn't say much either.

Anyway, combo decks are usually playing protection, more than disruption. They're going to masturbate with the synergies their deck have, so they try to protect their gameplan using discard, countermagic or bounce or chant. Enchantress is not trying to do that. You're unlikely to search interaction with your opponent unless your opponent does it.

On the other hand, control decks are finding answers to opponent's threats, such as Oblivion Rings, Moats, Halos, etc. This is exactly what enchantress is doing, trying to stay alive while your card advantage engine starts to work.

At least, this is how it works against aggro decks.
Against control decks you're not the control deck, so you want to drop bomb after bomb, hoping your opponent isn't answering them all.

So, basically here's your role in the matchups:

Aggro: you're the control deck. Play an enchantress, slow them down and control the board. Win at pleasure.
Aggrocontrol: you're the control deck. Control the board until you can bury them with your card advantage.
Combo: you're the control deck. Play your control cards as soon as you can.
Control: you're the beatdown. Play as many bombs as you can, and hope some doesn't get answered.

These are the reasons why I believe Enchantress is a control deck. In fact its gameplan is quite similar to some other control decks:

(A)answer opponent's threats and
(B)bury the opponent with your card advantage

Enchantress:
(A) O.Ring, Halo, Moat,... (B) Enchantresses, Replenish
Landstill:
(A) Fow,Stp, EE, Wrath, Deed... (B) Standstill...
ITF:
(A) Fow, Deed, EE... (B) Loam, CB
MUC:
(A) Counters, Shackles... (B) FoF...
Rock:
(A) Deed, Removal... (B) Witness, Gift, Loam, Genesis, whatever

This is what i believe is the pure aggro plan:
(A) Play threats
(B) mmh...profit?

Aggrocontrol Tempo:
(A) Play threats
(B) keep him off balance long enough to win with some disruption (LD, Cheap countermagic, discard)

Combo:
(A) if the opponent has some way to deal with your plan then use your protection cards to get rid of those pesky cards. Otherwise go directly to B
(B) Play your combo and win.

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

control, very simple here, you play cards that will control the game and force the game to go in to what is called late game because you play slower more explosive cards to shut down their opponent to finish them off later.

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Enchantress never intentionally goes into the late game.

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Every deck has also a good number of internal sinergies (unless it's chaserare.deck) such as Ravager+Artifacts, Enchantress+Enchantments, Landstill+Manlands, LD+Daze, the entire goblin deck, etc. So that doesn't say much either.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki%27s_wager

Not every deck is equally interactive.

Decks like TES, Ichorid, and Enchantress all rely on internal synergy to a point that exceeds most other decks.

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Anyway, combo decks are usually playing protection, more than disruption. They're going to masturbate with the synergies their deck have, so they try to protect their gameplan using discard, countermagic or bounce or chant. Enchantress is not trying to do that. You're unlikely to search interaction with your opponent unless your opponent does it.

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I really don't understand what you're trying to say.

That's exactly what Enchantress does. It can't reliably race based just on its win condition, so it uses cards like Elephant Grass and Solitary Confinement to protect itself until it can.

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On the other hand, control decks are finding answers to opponent's threats, such as Oblivion Rings, Moats, Halos, etc. This is exactly what enchantress is doing, trying to stay alive while your card advantage engine starts to work.

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You're contradicting yourself.

You're not trying to protect your gameplan, but you are trying to stay alive while your engine works?

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Aggro: you're the control deck. Play an enchantress, slow them down and control the board. Win at pleasure.

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This misrepresents the nature of the match-up.

Against aggro, the pressure is on the aggro player to outrace a Confinement.

You are the beatdown.

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Aggrocontrol: you're the control deck. Control the board until you can bury them with your card advantage.

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No, you're the beat-down, again. You're trying to get card advantage on the board immediately, then trying to buy enough time for Confinement as a second priority.

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Combo: you're the control deck. Play your control cards as soon as you can.

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This is the only match where Enchantress is forced to truly play control, which is why Enchantress has a rough time against combo. When you're forced to interact with the opponent, the deck has difficulty. That doesn't sound much like control.

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Control: you're the beatdown. Play as many bombs as you can, and hope some doesn't get answered.

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That's actually your strategy against every deck that isn't combo.

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Enchantress:
(A) O.Ring, Halo, Moat,... (B) Enchantresses, Replenish
Landstill:
(A) Fow,Stp, EE, Wrath, Deed... (B) Standstill...
ITF:
(A) Fow, Deed, EE... (B) Loam, CB
MUC:
(A) Counters, Shackles... (B) FoF...
Rock:
(A) Deed, Removal... (B) Witness, Gift, Loam, Genesis, whatever

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Except that in Enchantress, you're talking about 6-8 cards as answer cards. In Landstill, for instance, you're talking about 20+ cards.

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(A) if the opponent has some way to deal with your plan then use your protection cards to get rid of those pesky cards. Otherwise go directly to B
(B) Play your combo and win.

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Like;

A)If your opponent can stop you from winning (ie, by killing you), then stop him (ie, with Confinement).
B)Otherwise, play Enchantresses and win.



You CAN turn Enchantress into Parfait if you want, by running excess protection cards like Moat, Halo, and O. Ring. But frankly, that's a sub-par and outdated version of the deck.

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

Anyway, combo decks are usually playing protection, more than disruption. They're going to masturbate with the synergies their deck have, so they try to protect their gameplan using discard, countermagic or bounce or chant. Enchantress is not trying to do that. You're unlikely to search interaction with your opponent unless your opponent does it.

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This describes Enchantress perfectly. You do not want to interact with your opponent any more than he or she forces you to, since the gameplan of "resolve Enchantresses, Confinement, and Words" will end the game quickly and efficiently, if left undisrupted.

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On the other hand, control decks are finding answers to opponent's threats, such as Oblivion Rings, Moats, Halos, etc. This is exactly what enchantress is doing, trying to stay alive while your card advantage engine starts to work.

At least, this is how it works against aggro decks.

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This is wrong. Enchantress does not function well as a reactive deck, searching for answers to the opponent's threats after they are presented. This is also unnecessary, because of Solitary Confinement.

When Enchantress is facing an aggro deck, Solitary Confinement is its win condition. Think about that for a minute. Once you play a Confinement with enough Enchantress effects in play, you have presented the opponent with a game-winning threat. It shuts them down in such a comprehensive way as to lose them the game if it stays in play, usually in just a few turns (until you can deal 20 damage with Words of War).

Now, it is true that Enchantress employs other tools to slow down aggro decks, in order to buy time for Confinement to come online. However, this does not make Enchantress a control deck, because the deck's core strategy is still proactive and non-interactive.

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Aggrocontrol: you're the control deck. Control the board until you can bury them with your card advantage.

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Trying to control the board against a Threshold-like deck is folly. You end up prioritizing weak cards like Runed Halo and Elephant Grass when you should be focusing on Enchantress effects and other proactive threats, such as Blood Moon, Choke, and Replenish. These are the cards that win you the game.

Enchantress can actually win the game (with Words of War, I mean) quicker than Threshold can usually deal lethal damage, so why would you try to assume a controlling role?

Try to look at it from the perspective of the Threshold player. They won't care much about Oblivion Rings and Runed Halos if you aren't drawing cards from them. This is because they have to assume the role of control.

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These are the reasons why I believe Enchantress is a control deck. In fact its gameplan is quite similar to some other control decks:

(A)answer opponent's threats and
(B)bury the opponent with your card advantage

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You have these in the wrong order. The number one goal of an Enchantress player is to resolve Enchantresses and draw cards from them. Answering the opponent's threats is ancillary, and unnecessary if you can win the game faster than your opponent. Against creature-based aggro decks, landing Confinement is how you win the game.

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Combo:
(A) if the opponent has some way to deal with your plan then use your protection cards to get rid of those pesky cards. Otherwise go directly to B
(B) Play your combo and win.

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One way that other decks try to deal with combo decks is to race them. As a combo deck, how do you "protect" your combo from the clock of a faster deck?

You use stall cards. Solidarity had Remand. Heartbeat had Moment's Peace. Enchantress has Elephant Grass. These cards can be considered control elements, but they do not change the fundamental strategies of the decks that incorporate them.

The decks you listed as combo decks (Solidarity, heartbeat) are actually control-combo decks IMO, Mixing CA machines, gaining tempo n the opponent and having a quite fast combo finish.

By the way, you have your points. But I'm still playing enchantress as sort of control deck, and having nice results with it.

Actually, against threshold I usually play an enchantress before playing a Moat, just because I know the opponent will counter the enchantress and then will not have a counter for the moat. What a combo win! It remembers me of Landstill combo: Humility+Opponent's creatures.

I'm actually one of the people playing the deck with a good number of control cards: 4 Grass, 2 O.Ring, 2 Confinament, 1 Moat, 2 Ground Seal, 2 Runed halo.

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Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges

This misrepresents the nature of the match-up.

Against aggro, the pressure is on the aggro player to outrace a Confinement.

You are the beatdown.

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So I guess in the Landstill vs Goblins matchup, Landstill is the beatdown deck, cause Goblins is trying to outrace the Wrath+Humility combo instead of the Enchantress+Confinament one. (WTF?)

Obviously, every deck wants to execute its game plan. This doesn't mean being the beatdown. The beatdown is the deck that's trying to be the aggressor and continually pose threats to the opponent, and trying to win before the opponent executed its gameplan.

From Threat Theory:
the active deck tries to repeatedly"push" the control deck, busting it to the point where it runs out of answers. At that point, the active deck operates like a crack in a dike, and that is bad news for the control deck. On the other hand, if the control deck is operating correctly, answering threats (Grass, Ring, Halo) and drawing cards (Enchantress), it can surround itself with a defensive fortress, shore up a couple of turns, and then take (yes) control of the game (Confinament).

In the aggrocontrol matchup Runed Halo slows them down a lot, cause they're usually playing 8 threats, and 4 of them (with at least one usually being already in play) instantly are becoming uneffective. In that way you gain more time to draw your card advantage engine and take control of the board. Then you win when it pleases you, like another control deck would do with Decree once it landed Humility.

However, this discussion has already taken too much space. People with some kind of practice with the deck will hopefully know how to play it. Let's move on.
(@Obfuscate Freely, your first quote by me is not by me. :wink: )

Alright, I think we have exhausted ripping each other apart on either the use of Sigil or what the definition of Enchantress is. Now lets help the new guy...

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Originally Posted by Guevera59

Well, there it is. I have some questions. Should Runed Halos be maindecked? Should I maindeck O-Rings? And most importantly, is the red splash worth arguably the best win con. and the best disruption enchantment? Thanks for the help, trying to pick up a new deck...an exceptionally difficult one to play too.

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You deck looks pretty standard. Personally, I don't think the Mox are necessary. I don't think Enchantress needs that sort of acceleration, and you may remove a key piece, and this deck is all about the right piece. Runed Halo, as discussed in previous posts, is more of a SB card. The double white isn't hard to achieve, but can be cumbersome at an early stage when the Halo is most most against Combo. Oblivion Ring is a must, even maybe multiples. It's too good, takes care of too many problems.

Now for the last bits. The Red in your deck is a preference to how you want to win, slowly and surely, or in one hit. I don't think Words is the best win-con, but that is my opinion, and I could be wrong....

Blood Moon is your best disruption, so I wouldn't loss it.

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Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely

This describes Enchantress perfectly. You do not want to interact with your opponent any more than he or she forces you to, since the gameplan of "resolve Enchantresses, Confinement, and Words" will end the game quickly and efficiently, if left undisrupted.


This is wrong. Enchantress does not function well as a reactive deck, searching for answers to the opponent's threats after they are presented. This is also unnecessary, because of Solitary Confinement.

When Enchantress is facing an aggro deck, Solitary Confinement is its win condition. Think about that for a minute. Once you play a Confinement with enough Enchantress effects in play, you have presented the opponent with a game-winning threat. It shuts them down in such a comprehensive way as to lose them the game if it stays in play, usually in just a few turns (until you can deal 20 damage with Words of War).

Now, it is true that Enchantress employs other tools to slow down aggro decks, in order to buy time for Confinement to come online. However, this does not make Enchantress a control deck, because the deck's core strategy is still proactive and non-interactive.


Trying to control the board against a Threshold-like deck is folly. You end up prioritizing weak cards like Runed Halo and Elephant Grass when you should be focusing on Enchantress effects and other proactive threats, such as Blood Moon, Choke, and Replenish. These are the cards that win you the game.

Enchantress can actually win the game (with Words of War, I mean) quicker than Threshold can usually deal lethal damage, so why would you try to assume a controlling role?

Try to look at it from the perspective of the Threshold player. They won't care much about Oblivion Rings and Runed Halos if you aren't drawing cards from them. This is because they have to assume the role of control.


You have these in the wrong order. The number one goal of an Enchantress player is to resolve Enchantresses and draw cards from them. Answering the opponent's threats is ancillary, and unnecessary if you can win the game faster than your opponent. Against creature-based aggro decks, landing Confinement is how you win the game.


One way that other decks try to deal with combo decks is to race them. As a combo deck, how do you "protect" your combo from the clock of a faster deck?

You use stall cards. Solidarity had Remand. Heartbeat had Moment's Peace. Enchantress has Elephant Grass. These cards can be considered control elements, but they do not change the fundamental strategies of the decks that incorporate them.

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Before we finally end this wasted time of space, which version of enchantress are you talking about, the version that runs things like moxes and guides to play things faster or the version that plays things like elephant grass and such to slow down the opponent until you have enough mana/draw effects to play things??? because the version with moxes I could consider it a combo because it is build to play faster and try to force things through to win while the other version is a control deck that wants to control the opponents board before winning. In all of your explaining, you never explain what cards and strats make this a combo, you just put up your definition of a combo deck(which you don't have the power to define what it is, your just 1 person) and dont actually explain how in the deck its a combo. This deck is simply a control deck, it CONTROLS your opponents board through halo, confinment, o ring, moat, grass, ground seal, city of solitude..etc then once you are in control, you play wow or mesa to finish them off.

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Originally Posted by landstill101

Before we finally end this wasted time of space, which version of enchantress are you talking about, the version that runs things like moxes and guides to play things faster or the version that plays things like elephant grass and such to slow down the opponent until you have enough mana/draw effects to play things??? because the version with moxes I could consider it a combo because it is build to play faster and try to force things through to win while the other version is a control deck that wants to control the opponents board before winning. In all of your explaining, you never explain what cards and strats make this a combo, you just put up your definition of a combo deck(which you don't have the power to define what it is, your just 1 person) and dont actually explain how in the deck its a combo. This deck is simply a control deck, it CONTROLS your opponents board through halo, confinment, o ring, moat, grass, ground seal, city of solitude..etc then once you are in control, you play wow or mesa to finish them off.

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A) All versions play Elephant Grass.

B) Do you really need to be told which parts of the deck are the core combo? Enchantresses + Enchantments + Confinement/WoWar.

Happy?

C) You don't control the board through cards like Halo, Confinement, or Oblivion Ring.

Those cards are in the deck because, and only because, there are only 8 playable Enchantress effects.

If they printed another playable Enchantress in the next set, the deck would lose the chaff like Library, Moat, Halo, etc, and go to just Confinements and Grasses.

Your primary strategy against every deck that isn't combo is to get an Enchantress out and start drawing cards. The deck is almost completely non-interactive. That's why it's called Solitaire, FFS.

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Originally Posted by Guevera59

Hey guys, I'm new to the Enchantress Archetype. I always dismissed as a kind of mediocre deck that loses instantly to a resolved Deed. Well, I tested the deck out and not only am I wrong about the Deed, but its really an awesome deck that pulls wins out of its ass. Here's my current list:

Land//19
7x Forest
2x Plains
3x Savannah
1x Taiga
4x Windswept Heath
2x Serra Sanctum

Creatures//4
4x Argothian Enchantress

Other Spells//37
3x Chrome Mox
1x Karmic Justice
2x Exploration
1x Mirri's Guile
2x Replenish
3x Solitary Confinement
1x Blood Moon
1x Aura of Silence
4x Elephant Grass
2x Ground Seal
1x Sacred Mesa/Sigil
4x Sterling Grove
4x Utopia Sprawl
2x Wild Growth
1x Words of War
1x Oblivion Ring
4x Enchantress's Presence

Sideboard//15
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Runed Halo
1x Ground Seal
2x Humility
2x Karmic Justice
2x Blood Moon
1x Sacred Ground
1x Seal of Primordium

Well, there it is. I have some questions. Should Runed Halos be maindecked? Should I maindeck O-Rings? And most importantly, is the red splash worth arguably the best win con. and the best disruption enchantment? Thanks for the help, trying to pick up a new deck...an exceptionally difficult one to play too.

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Now on to things that will actually help people... about the list, like mentioned before I'm not a big fan of the moxes, the deck doesn't need the speed at all, I feel the removal of the card for the mana is worse than having the mana a turn early. Also, I'm not sure why you have only 1 guile, if your going to play that card, you need atleast 3-4 because the card is worthless late game because you should be drawing more than 3 cards a turn with effects, and its only good early game and the possibility of drawing it in opening hand or horrid.

To your questions, yes runed halo should be main board, I have 3 right now I think main board. I've not been a huge Fan of O-ring, I think some things are better in its place, but that one is more a preference choice. And on the splash of red OF COURSE its worth it.

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Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges

A) All versions play Elephant Grass.

B) Do you really need to be told which parts of the deck are the core combo? Enchantresses + Enchantments + Confinement/WoWar.

Happy?

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Ok by this thinking, in landstill a standstill and a manland makes the deck a combo. In threshold, countertop makes it a combo,

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Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges

C) You don't control the board through cards like Halo, Confinement, or Oblivion Ring.

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Wow I really can't believe you actually believe this, I'm hoping everyone that is reading this realizes how wrong this statement is, and since I can't attack a person, i'll just completely bash your quote.

Lets see where to start..... Halo, the card reads:As Runed Halo comes into play, name a card.
You have protection from the chosen name.

Ok looking at the exact oracle of the card, you name a card and you are protected from it, ok lets through some examples to make it easier.. my opponent is attacking me with a goyf, I play a halo naming goyf and wow I just controlled the board by giving my self protection from something that is killing me.

Here is the definition of control in the dictionary to make it even easier to see

1. to exercise restraint or direction over; dominate; command.
2. to hold in check; curb: to control a horse; to control one's emotions.

wow runed halo retrains/ holds in check that creature from damaging you IT CONTROLS THE BOARD.

confinment,.... I can do this one but it would just be repeating how to control things from runed halo.

On to oblivion ring. here is the oracle text
When Oblivion Ring comes into play, remove another target nonland permanent from the game.
When Oblivion Ring leaves play, return the removed card to play under its owner's control.

it removes something from the board. This card DOMINATES THE OTHER CARD which removes it and helps CONTROL the board.

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Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges

Those cards are in the deck because, and only because, there are only 8 playable Enchantress effects.

If they printed another playable Enchantress in the next set, the deck would lose the chaff like Library, Moat, Halo, etc, and go to just Confinements and Grasses.

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Actually it won't(talking about only playing confinement and grasses) because there would be no control of the board and any deck with disruption or control would easily stop you in your attempt to win. Because this deck isn't combo, soo it would easily lose without control cards.

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Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges

Your primary strategy against every deck that isn't combo is to get an Enchantress out and start drawing cards. The deck is almost completely non-interactive. That's why it's called Solitaire, FFS.

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Soo because the main strat is to get enchantress to draw cards, threshold is a combo deck because it main thing is to play creatures to win, or for grow decks to play creatures fast or dragon stompy to get a moon effect down???? is that how you're putting it, because that is how it is explained.

Soo playing an elephant grass first turn instead of a wild growth against goblins isn't interactive?? or searching for a runed halo to name on goyf isn't reactive?? or playing mesa early to make blockers isn't reactive?? or playing city of solitude down before enchantress isn't interactive??? I could go on for a long time on this supposed to be non-interactive deck.

This deck is control........ period.....

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Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges

If they printed another playable Enchantress in the next set

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*MASTURBATES FURIOUSLY*

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Originally Posted by Guevera59

Should Runed Halos be maindecked? Should I maindeck O-Rings? And most importantly, is the red splash worth arguably the best win con. and the best disruption enchantment? Thanks for the help, trying to pick up a new deck...an exceptionally difficult one to play too.

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Oblivion ring is a catch all answer, and more versatile than Runed Halo, also easier on the manabase. Run Halo if your meta has a lot of decks with a limited number of winconditions.

The red splash is worth the card. WoW is THE finisher for this deck.

Things I don't like about your deck:
- Number of unbasics: the Savannah number can be reduced to 2. This deck loses to a wasteland on an enchanted land more than any other. You also run a lot of moon effects postboard.
- Aura of silence: I don't get this maindeck. A single copy is not going to reduce the speed of your Deed-playing opponent. O.Ring is an overall better solution, at least maindeck
- Exploration + Mox: Run one or he other. Mox wants a land light manabase (only 19 lands, where I play 21), where exploration wants you to run many lands.
- 3 solitary confinament: it sucks if you don't have a couple of enchantresses out. Once you have them, you probably have already got through your deck to find one of the 2 copies. So 2 copies are enough, at least until they print another enchantress effect (*masturbates furiously again*).
- 2 Replenish: it's the most powerful card in the deck with the enchantresses. I play 3 maindeck, but you can go with 2. But you need another copy in the SB.
- Moat: it costs a lot, but agaist some decks it spells GG preside.
- Humility sucks in the board. It hoses half of your draw engine and you still have to deal with creatures in the long run.

Runed Halo is unreal. It's a white Duress. I highly endorse them!

More and more, I want Karmic Justice in my maindeck (I know, it should be there already) because I fear things like EE for 2 or someone busting out of my Chokes. To the people that run them, do you get them to fire off when you use it? Do you actually tutor for one or hope to draw into it? Do you side in multiples, and if so, against what decks?

GreenOne, I hope I'm reading you wrong when I think you're saying that you draw cards from Enchantresses when you cast Replenish...

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Originally Posted by hi-val

Runed Halo is unreal. It's a white Duress. I highly endorse them!

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Yeah, it's good if there's lot of aggrocontrol in your meta. It's not great against aggro cause they have too many winconditions (think about goblins, elves or merfolks), and it sucks against control, unless they're playing edicts/discard/intuition.
It rocks against Tendrils, Goyf, Tombstalker and Dreadnough though.
The reason why I'm playing few is because of the double white. I'm playing little duals and WW is not as easy as it seems.

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Originally Posted by hi-val

More and more, I want Karmic Justice in my maindeck (I know, it should be there already) because I fear things like EE for 2 or someone busting out of my Chokes. To the people that run them, do you get them to fire off when you use it? Do you actually tutor for one or hope to draw into it? Do you side in multiples, and if so, against what decks?

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I'm playing 1 maindeck and 2 SB. They're good against anything with LD or board sweepers (EE, Deed). The "vindicate" effect is actually quite good even against Krosan grip/Trygon Predator, but most of the time against those you don't need all the 3.

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Originally Posted by hi-val

GreenOne, I hope I'm reading you wrong when I think you're saying that you draw cards from Enchantresses when you cast Replenish...

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Yeah, what I meant is that Replenish is the most busted card, like enchantresses are. :tongue:

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More and more, I want Karmic Justice in my maindeck (I know, it should be there already) because I fear things like EE for 2 or someone busting out of my Chokes. To the people that run them, do you get them to fire off when you use it? Do you actually tutor for one or hope to draw into it? Do you side in multiples, and if so, against what decks?

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I also run 1 maindeck, and 2 in the board. I really think that is the right amount in the right places. They come in against anything running deed, EE, armageddon, or excessive land/enchantment hate. I would not bring them in against Team America, mainly because you want chokes and halos more (and there just isn't room for everything), however i do bring in my 1x sacred ground.

Halo hasn't really impressed me enough to merit running more than 1 in the main, 2 in the side.

One thing i have been wondering about: what is the correct number of lands to be playing? I have used everywhere from 18-21, and can't seem to decide. At the moment i am playing with 19 lands, 3 ESG and 6 auras, much to my liking. Any thoughts?

Halo is much different with 4 copies compared to one copy. It's like how Disrupt is underwhelming unless you run 4, and then it's stellar. Halo is like WW: Counter that spell and every other copy they draw. It counters Intuition, Gifts and Thoughtseize too. I'd be happy dropping it against basically any creature on the board, since it also gives them dead draws. Two Halos on the board naming a 4-of means they've got at least 6 dead cards in their deck! But I can certainly see other cards in its spot; the WW requirement is hard to get.


Do you find that you tutor for your Karmic Justice?

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Originally Posted by honz

One thing i have been wondering about: what is the correct number of lands to be playing? I have used everywhere from 18-21, and can't seem to decide. At the moment i am playing with 19 lands, 3 ESG and 6 auras, much to my liking. Any thoughts?

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Here's my manabase:
// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [B] Savannah
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
1 [A] Taiga
3 [MM] Plains (1)
10 [ON] Forest (1)

4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
4 [IA] Wild Growth

21 lands + 8 Auras + 0 Exploration/Gea's touch.

I do believe lands are quite important for the deck, cause you want to hit your first, second and third drop consistently, that's why I run 21.
This lets me worry less about Stifles and wastelands (also given the low number of unbasics in my build.
The manabase is quite solid, and the only thing I'm missing is sometimes the WW.

I don't run any Moxes / ESG, cause i prefer having more lands and more auras instead. A higher number of enchantments in the deck means more profit from a landed enchantress. More lands means more land drops against control/LD. However this comes at a cost. I'm slower at putting into play argothians (same speed with Presences) and lose some speed mid-combo (chrome mox acts like a 1-time Exploration effect mid combo).

To me, only one Karmic Justice is necessary. If you draw it early, it hoses quite a few decks. Late game, it is still beastly. Replenish is a 2 of, I think, hadn't even thought of putting one in the board, I have better tech! Lands, I think the less the better, even with 2 Exploration. I don't even run Taiga. The utopia Sprawls can muster the :r: even you watch and conserve one. Still, if you have Blood Moon main, what would be the point of a Taiga.

Here's a question, what do you have for the mirror?

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

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Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges

If they printed another playable Enchantress in the next set, the deck would lose the chaff like Library, Moat, Halo, etc, and go to just Confinements and Grasses.

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*MASTURBATES FURIOUSLY*

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This Thread has received more money shots than any other. Shouldn't The Source award it with something for that?


So none of you would tap Femeref Enchantress?