Shriekmaw? To dodge Counterbalance? Would you mind sharing some rationale?
Printable View
Shriekmaw? To dodge Counterbalance? Would you mind sharing some rationale?
Tournament Report. Mono-Red, 3rd place.
First a bit about myself. I quit playing magic the first time around alliances I think. I started back I gues about 3 weeks ago. I'm way behind the experience/knowledge curve now.
I ran a mono-red goblin deck with what you would expect to see in a mono red goblin deck. I don't run sharpshooters, I run ports, I run tinkerer's.
Match 1 - MUC stasis
Game 1 & Game 2: all a blur, i cast goblins he counters goblins, I have more goblins than he has counters. He gets stasis down both games with no bounce, so i just poke him until he cant pay it anymore and the horde wins. He never got a threat down (high casting cost threats). Easy 2 games.
1-0
Match 2 - Suiblack
This is a friend, usually i win game 1 and he takes 2,3. He runs eng plague and contaminations.
Game 1: I build up faster than him, and kill him.
Game 2: Double engineered plague gg.
Game 3: we both build up and the sui part of his deck drains a lot of his life. I win by vialing in a warchief, casting siege gang, and having a goblin king in play. He had 1 eng explosive out.
2-0
Match 3 - Dragon Stompy (Tacosnape)
I loose first 2 games, bad draws, and a general lack of answers. He is able to cast more big creatures than I can small creatures. Hell just read his writeup in the DS thread.
2-1
Match 4 - Burn
Game 1 - I'm not able to build up for crap, and she is able to neutralize any threat I put out early, and then me.
Game 2 - I put in Thorn of Amethyst, and Pyrokinesis, and sadly dont come up with either. I still have bad draws and can't build up. Goes much like Game 1.
2-2
Semis -Burn (lucky me)
Game 1 - Goes much like previous game 1. I die.
Game 2 - I slow her down with thorns, but we actually both die the way a stack resolves.
Game 3 - I get some threats down with a less than ideal hand/draw, and she has bad luck. I win.
Game 4 - Goes much the same way as game 2 of the first match. I loose.
Somehow end up third, and store credit makes up for cost. I'm pretty happy with the way things went. I had some bad luck, made a few mistakes. I went in knowing that mono red gobs would probably be at a real disadvantage to some of the decks.
Eh, I guess if they're dumb enough to leave Counterbalance in games two and three it's all right. But it's mostly because it kills all the same shit that Terminate does for the same amount of mana and I have the option of getting a 3/2 evasion beater after turn 5.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaynel
Oh yeah, and I have a serious hard on for vialing him into play, 187 a (stupid fucking) Tarmogoyf and blocking/killing a Mongoose.
As someone playing in TB's metagame, I'm seriously fucking scared of Aether Vial at 5 mana now.
i really am sick of everyone talking about how Tarmogoyf is the nutz and cant be stopped unless you use shriekmaw or warren weirding. i have been playing vial goblins since darksteel was T2 legal. i believe after testing in local shops many weeks after future sight (goyf) was legal that he isn't that big of a threat to goblins. ok so you don't get the turn two lackey siege-gang, piledrive nutz but irrelevant you play more guys and don't be dumb and you almost can't loose i have tested against Landstill, Threshold variants and other random decks that are dumb and run Tarmogoyf, so far even Landstill with its permission and mass/targeted removal i have been able to beat, and Tarmogoyf.Dec with little to know problem. the only real time i may have a problem is when i dont draw guys and amazingly draw land despite 8 fetch lands, four tutor, four ringleader, and three gempalm incinerator....... so yea must be nice right? but still i dont think that Tarmogoyf is that big of a problem for goblins.dec it just comes down to the simple math that more guys beat one really big guy.
Wat you're missing is that it's not Tarmogyf that is tough. It's the rest of the deck.
Most of your goblins are individualy terrible, and the ones that aren't die to removal of whatever kind they run. The rest, non only can goyf stop, but even nimble mongoose is tough to remove.
Throw in Enforcers, Tombstalkers, or Dragons and there's truoble at the mill.
I was thinking along those lines too. I was kind of surprised when everyone started saying that Thresh became a nightmare for Goblins when Goyf was printed. The MU improved for Thresh because Goyf is a damn good upgrade for Werebear and serves as an early stabilizer (wherein Werebear can't be dropped right away because it's so flimsy without Thresh), but I don't see how 8 creatures can stop an entire horde of Goblins. Add to that the fact that their main control engine (CB-Top) isn't really good against Goblins.
Maybe because people just stopped working on Goblins when Goyf was printed. I still think it's a good deck, and just one or two innovations/cards away from being top tier again.
Co-sign.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
No. Tarmogoyf is that good. We cannot deal with it on turn two, so we just sit there twiddling our dicks for three or four turns. Meanwhile, they're building up their board position too. Look at the following scenario.
Thresh: Fetch, Brainstorm/ponder.
Goblins: Mountain, lackey, go.
Thresh: Land, Tarmogoyf.
Goblins: Uhhh... Land, go.
Thresh: cantrip, cantrip, go.
Goblins: Land, Warchief, go.
Warchief is in play, and you're not swinging. That is fucking huge. You pretty much cannot swing into Tarmogoyf/Threshed Mongoose unless you're already so far ahead in board position that you're going to win anyways. This also doesn't take into account whatever removal or countermagic they might have. If they have a bolt/swords for Lackey, they start bashing for four/five a turn with goyf, and even with Goblins, that's hard to race.
It's not so much that Tarmogoyf by himself is insane (which he is, since Goblins used to not be able to deal with an early 'goyf, which stifled our our progression), it's that Tarmogoyf allowed Thresh to achieve a critical mass of stupidly efficient beaters. It's not that they only have 8 creatures, it's that they have 8 creatures that Goblins has a bitch of a time dealing with. You know how hard it is to play out a horde of Goblins? Pretty rough, considering our P/T to CC ratio is fucking horrible. It'd be great if we could be all like, "Oh, Tarmogoyf, eh? Tap out, activate Vial, play three more dudes, bash." Except if we do that, we're like, "Oh. Pyroclasm. Well, what do you know. That sucks." And, again, that doesn't take into account multiple Tarmogoyfs, singular or multiple Mongooses, or targeted removal.
I fear Thresh far more than I fear Landstill. Landstill's a goddamn joke without Humility. I'm about 50/50 against Thresh, but I still fucking hate that match-up. And it's all Tarmogoyf. There hasn't been a single card I've lost more games to than that. Maybe, maybe Engineered Plague.
Goblins was never worst than tier 1.5. People just stopped playing it. It's just not as dominant, and Thresh, which used to be an incredibly favorable match-up, became even if not slightly unfavorable.
So, tell me. How is not running Goblin Piledriver (which sucks) and running non-goblins (Tarmogoyf/Shriekmaw, which are awesome) not innovative? They're new ideas, and certainly better than adding a black Goblin King, which is an old idea. Because, you know, the fucking red Goblin King got cut. Because it sucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
Isn't Warren Weirdings a better way to get rid of pesky Tarmos / Geese in a synergistic way with the deck itself?
It's Recurrable with Wort, Cheaper with Warchief, Tutorable with Matron and Ringleader. It also doesn't need a lot of goblins in play, and punish the opponent for playing decks with a little number of creatures (read aggro-control).
Is it because it's Dazeable, Spell Snareable, FoWable, CBalanceable etc that you would choose to run narrow answers like Shriekmaw?
Oh, I wasn't referring to THAT. That's cool, and I understand the argument for cutting Piledrivers. It's a pretty good argument too.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeenieBopper
I just meant that people stopped thinking of Goblins since Goyf can't be Matron'd or Ringleader'd. I still think the deck has the makings of a great deck, and like I side, just a few innovations away from awesomeness once again (since we still have to see if the un-Piledriver version can put up consistent, decent results.
Mike runs 4x Weirding in the MD. He runs 4 more terror effects (4 Shriekmaw) in the board, as additional removal for Goyf. It used to be Smother, then Terminate, and now Shriekmaw, which is better than either of them. None of those were getting put into hand by Ringleader, so it's a moot point.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenOne
Don't get me wrong, the fact that Tarmogoyf and now Shriekmaw can't be Matroned for or flipped off Ringleader is really annoying. But that's offset by the fact that their effects are just so powerful.
So, TB, how many removal effects are you running? I think I've finally come around to 4x Weirding. I also am running 2x Incinerator and 3x Fanatic, with no Sharpshooter (I don't like him).Quote:
Originally Posted by TeenieBopper
I really would like one of these slots freed up for Goblin Sledder or another Wort. What do you recommend cutting?
I think 4 Fanatic is REALLY good and wouldn't consider running any less. I'd cut down on Piledrivers before him.
This man speaks the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaynel
I'm down to 1-2 Piledrivers. I run 4 Weirding, 1-2 Gempalm, 4 Fanatic, 1 Sharpshooter.
Does the awesomeness of Weirding against Threshold/Goyf in general offset its liability in the mirror?Quote:
Originally Posted by TeenieBopper
And what's your current post-Weirding list? Apologies if it's been already posted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeenieBopper
My version is very similar.
Running: 3 Piledrivers, 3 Weirding, 2 Incinerators, 1 Tin Street, 1 Sharpshooter, 1 Wort, and 2 Seige-Gang Commander.
You could use it on yourself to split a Goblin, for an additional pump to Piledriver and Incinerator... Or in conjunction with Goblin Sharpshooter, to take down a big one (e.g. Wort). I don't think it's a liability, it just does things differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whit3 Ghost
Other people play Goblins? Seriously?
I don't have to worry about the mirror. If I start having to, or if I'm going to play in a large tournament, I'd probably switch to a 3/3 set up.